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Hi all,
I'm considering switching from Sky Broadband to PlusNet unlimited fiber as FTTC has recently been installed in my area (Billericay, Essex). However I'm concerned about their traffic shaping policy (Sky has none) and how it would affect my remote working activity. I'm using protocols like SSH/SCP (22), MySQL (3306), PostgreSQL (5432), RDP, VPN, MongoDB and others, and wonder whether there's a risk some of them become difficult to use once I've switched.
Do anyone here has first-hand experience about using "professional" services on PlusNet Fiber? Have you experienced any trouble with traffic shaping?
Thanks for your help,
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I know you're looking more for advice from other users rather than an ISP rep, but in my opinion and experience the traffic management (we don't rate limit) won't cause issues with those services.
We prioritise certain traffic above others to ensure a good quality of service, but we don't apply rate limits to the line so as long as you have the bandwidth available your services will work as fast as they can.
Have a read here for some more info: http://community.plus.net/blog/2012/12/21/its-unlimi...
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The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
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I use ssh, although I usually use non-standard ports for my servers, to aid security.
At one time, years back, PN's traffic system slowed me down when I used port 10,000. Since then I've used one of the standard VPN port numbers without hassle, and other obscure port numbers. I haven't had any issues at all through fibre, which we've had in a few package guises for nearly 4 years.
The wife tends to use bog-standard VPNs without issue.
I've used MySQL and Oracle ports too, but I can't recall whether I've used them natively, or tunnelled over an SSH connection.
PN has a good customer forum, and they do tend to pay attention there if you have an obscure port issue.
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Hi Chris,
thanks a lot for the prompt answer indeed, I think you're hitting the crux of the issue here. Basically what is seemingly very difficult to figure out from the material available about PlusNet Traffic Shaping is whether the prioritization is done solely on the customer access link or on the core network.
In the former case, my flows are competing against other flows from the same household, and traffic shaping is a non-issue indeed, as I could use good old manual traffic policing (i.e., shouting at the kids to stop their senseless downloading) to restore good service. But let's make it very clear, the policing is entirely useless to PlusNet from a commercial point of view as it doesn't reduce excessive usage a bit. In fact it could as well be an option in the user's contract, like parental control for instance.
In the latter case, my flows are competing against other PlusNet users' activity, and there's a real risk that my meager Bronze-categorized MongoDB traffic be crushed under scores of WoW gamers and NetFlix customers in the evening. In fact it's almost guaranteed to be the case at some point,
Can you unequivocally state which option happens to be the case with PlusNet as of now? I think that would clarify the matter quite a bit.
Thanks for your support,
Chris
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As I understand it, it is prioritization of your own traffic only.. so if you are downloading and using Netflix it will prioritize the streaming. Very beneficial for most people but I do like the idea of being able to turn it on or off in your account.
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Hi Chris,
In the former case, my flows are competing against other flows from the same household, and traffic shaping is a non-issue indeed, as I could use good old manual traffic policing (i.e., shouting at the kids to stop their senseless downloading) to restore good service.
maybe its time to find a better modem router which can limit devices speeds.
In the latter case, my flows are competing against other PlusNet users' activity, and there's a real risk that my meager Bronze-categorized MongoDB traffic be crushed under scores of WoW gamers and NetFlix customers in the evening. In fact it's almost guaranteed to be the case at some point,
Can you unequivocally state which option happens to be the case with PlusNet as of now? I think that would clarify the matter quite a bit.
Thanks for your support,
Chris
Honestly PN has enough bandwidth that wow users will not cause problems with vpns/sql etc ..
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From the perspective of a user who has watched how PN have changed their traffic management over the years...
Prioritisation happens in both directions.
That means the prioritisation works for you vs the kids - giving preference to real-time protocols over non-real-time. Streaming & VoIP over downloads.
It also works for your streams competing against all other users, although you must remember to not think of it quite as "all" other users: you mostly compete against the subset of other users who happen to have connected via the same gateway.
Some graphs available here:
http://www.plus.net/support/service/network_performa...
Some others here, but they aren't working for me at the moment:
http://www.plus.net/support/service/network_performa...
When PN added the "unlimited" packages, they were keen to point out that they would keep installing capacity (ie pipes & gateways) to ensure that your streams didn't end up competing with other users.
In practice, this seems to be mostly the case ... however, gateways sometimes exhibit faults, so some of the users do encounter queuing & latency issues. It is usually solved by swapping gateway - gateway allocation is done randomly when a PPP session is started, so you can usually get yourself switched by restarting the PPP session in the router.
There's also this page on finding the traffic classifications:
http://community.plus.net/library/faults/using-wires...
Their current traffic management (which, on unlimited, is all about prioritisation and not about throttling) policy doesn't attempt to reduce excess usage, or timeshift it into the overnight slot. I guess that worked when P2P was the biggest user, and would hog every spare bit. Nowadays, the peak happens at 9pm, and is more from video.
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Plusnet said it applies at network level as well as line level. The question was raised soon after that blog entry was published.
The person in charge of the capacity planning at that time also said capacity is scaled to provide full throughput on bronze level. The shaping is basically to ensure VOIP, gaming and live streaming don't get messed up at any point.
The Pro option is still available on a month by month basis. That removes the shaping, but is provided more for legacy products where throttling is employed and it removes that. I usually recommend starting with the standard product, and if problems are encountered try the Pro option and see if helps. £5 per month and controlled through your Member Centre.
This page of tbb BQM graphs may be of interest. You need a static IP address of course - again done through your Member Centre for a one-off £5.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Nowadays, the peak happens at 9pm, and is more from video. As can be seen (by the others) on these graphs.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Ok, thanks for the correction. I personally have no problem with the prioritization.
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I just expanded the post to cover the rest of the stuff. It wasn't really aimed at you, but I was sure the OP would read it. Pure laziness by me when I should have made two posts, sorry.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Nowadays, the peak happens at 9pm, and is more from video. As can be seen (by the others) on these graphs.
Knowing from these Plusnet graphs that this peak occurs around 9 to 10 pm, I tried a TBB speed test yesterday evening at 22:18 which indicates my download speed halved in contrast to the rest of the day: (link).
This morning at 10:22 it is back where it was before:
(link). Is this expected? I realise this might not be the right forum, but if follows on from your post.
(this is a new fibre connection a week ago as noted in a separate thread (link) ).
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Ouch! No, it certainly is not expected.
If it was done wirelessly, and occurs again this (or any) evening, please could you do a wired test immediately you discover it? Even if that's a slight nuisance.
If it occurs wired there is something very wrong somewhere and we need to look for an explanation.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Both tests were done on the identical wireless connection, with no other activity running. A similar result occurred a few days ago but did not record it then, as not logged in at the time. Will post if it happens again.
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Both tests were done on the identical wireless connection Did you ask all your neighbours to stop all their wireless activity while you ran the test? Thought not. You need to run the test wired to eliminate the possible affects of increased wireless activity in your area.
jelv
Plusnet user since November 2001 - not sure for how much longer
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You need to run the test wired to eliminate the possible affects of increased wireless activity in your area. OK will do that. However this would be unexpected as I have lived with wireless broadband for ages in various properties on ADSL Max and 2+ lines, where this sort of drop hasn't occurred to my knowledge among denser populations of users.
The new router is secured/locked. This is a detached house with a fair distance between neighbours (nearest around 40 -50 metres), currently six to eight other networks in the vicinity (as indicated in network preferences).
Edited by s_h (Wed 12-Nov-14 13:55:50)
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It could be other RF interference within your own home.............
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You still need to do a wired test immediately after a bad wireless one. If the wired is bad as well then we need to find out why.
If the wired is good, it is best to do a second wireless one straight afterwards, to ensure the cause is still there.
We need to eliminate or establish a wireless cause, that's all . It's the first thing Plusnet (or any ISP) would need you to do.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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I have lived with wireless broadband for ages
...
where this sort of drop hasn't occurred to my knowledge among denser populations of users.
Usage changes over time.
5 years ago, there was barely a hint of streamed video, apart from you-tube-style sites. iPlayer was just starting. Anyone using WiFi probably did so in bursts of browsing - so interference probably only happened in bursts that you were likely to miss.
Nowadays there are many more prime-time-quality streamable content sources, and a lot more WiFi-based TV's (or STBs) to consume that content.
With the content peak now being 9PM-10PM, and video-oriented, imagine what that means for WiFi: a lot of the 2.4GHz spectrum will be constantly transmitting streamed video. A constant source of interference.
I can see 40+ SSID's in the 2.4GHz spectrum now, and it can be a real pain.
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I can see 40+ SSID's in the 2.4GHz spectrum now, and it can be a real pain. Thanks, yes you're right things have changed a lot in the past five years and probably this is only the start of it. Does all this activity clearly drop the speed of your own wireless connection pretty dramatically now, during peak viewing hours?
Thanks for all replies so far, I may well be back to considering the wired options (other thread). For the moment even the lower speed is fine for the purpose, so it's not a serious problem and a marked improvement on the ADSL connection, but it's worth understanding the cause of it.
Edited by s_h (Wed 12-Nov-14 14:14:02)
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Does all this activity clearly drop the speed of your own wireless connection pretty dramatically now, during peak viewing hours?
I'm not sure about the peak viewing hours, because that isn't critical to me yet...
After moving house, BT still hasn't managed to install a phone line, so all business & personal stuff relies on 4G through either EE or 3, via WiFi, and the most in-your-face-critical aspect is VoIP, while the other critical aspect is the VPN (or techy equivalents). I guess VoIP is notably sensitive to problems on either wireless leg.
Swapping from using the 4G modem indoors (even propped by a window) to an outdoor antenna improved things from "barely usable" to "casually usable" (improving 4 bar to 5 bar coverage)
We were still getting quite a few problems with this setup, and most notably during the day.
Swapping from 2.4GHz to 5GHz cut out over half the problems, and made it behave reasonably - qualifying as almost dependable for business - except for a few times when the cell would obviously have problems.
Finally I had a brainwave - my router, redundant without a phone line, could be reflashed with a variant of OpenWRT, and could then be made to host the 4G modem. That gave us more statistics over signal strength, which let us site the antenna much better: instead of getting a signal of -73 dBm, at the bottom of 5-bars, I could tune it to be as high as -55 dBm.
We now get a much more dependable connection, but the amount we're paying means evening streaming is not an option!
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First, apologies to chris_here for taking over his thread - however these are new speed test results half an hour ago.
Three wired, and three wireless tests, alternating with each other within a ten minute period between 8:12 and 8:20 p.m.
Wired is from a Macbook situated close to the router and connected to it via ethernet cable with wireless switched off, wireless tests are on an iMac in the next room, connected via wireless to the same router.
I don't know an efficient way to post links to the six tests (help on this welcome)
though all are recorded in my profile, this is simply a list of results copied from the profile list:
| Text | 1
23
45
67
8 | Flash Speedtest Results
Date Down TBB Down HTTPx6 Upstream Wed 12/11/14 20:19 12.30 Mbps 9.53 Mbps 16.32 Mbps
Wed 12/11/14 20:18 11.96 Mbps 11.60 Mbps 17.54 Mbps Wed 12/11/14 20:17 9.42 Mbps 9.43 Mbps 16.11 Mbps
Wed 12/11/14 20:15 10.36 Mbps 11.76 Mbps 17.57 Mbps Wed 12/11/14 20:13 9.97 Mbps 10.73 Mbps 16.17 Mbps
Wed 12/11/14 20:12 12.31 Mbps 11.24 Mbps 17.51 Mbps |
nos. 3, 5, 7 are wireless (iMac)
nos. 4, 6, 8 are wired (Macbook)
Obviously not late in the evening, I noticed the speed was already dropping earlier at 7:00 pm.:
Wed 12/11/14 19:00 12.52 Mbps 32.32 Mbps 16.54 Mbps
Just tried again (wireless - done first - slightly faster than ethernet this time):
| Text | 1
2 | Wed 12/11/14 21:02 11.04 Mbps 10.50 Mbps 17.45 Mbps
Wed 12/11/14 21:00 12.51 Mbps 14.63 Mbps 16.42 Mbps |
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p.s. If this part of this thread is now off-topic, and should be moved to a new thread with a new title, will do this - though not sure how best to do it.
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If you haven't registered on the Community forums I suggest you do so, and either repost here with that early fast speed test plus a copy of this latest post, or at least a post with a link back to this thread.
For dummies a few of us post there with a link to here and call for a rep. You're no dummy, and posting there yourself would be far better.
There's no way that is a common problem, otherwise all of us would be up in arms. It's still OK during the day is it?
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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I nearly suggested it in my previous post, and if it had been a wireless problem I would have recommended that while we sorted it.
I think what I've just suggested about the Community Forum is best, then just a report back here at the end. Anyone following the earlier part will ask if urgent for their decision, and any coming across it later will only need a result post.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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I am a dummy when it comes to working out how to present the results of the speed tests, to make readable posts - the PN forums won't use the same methods, and don't know the optimal way to do this. So might link back there to this thread at some point, and my earlier thread posted here. All rather time-consuming.
Any ideas what might cause this are welcome, I think the daytime download speed has consistently been around 37 Mbps since first connected a week ago.
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The PN forum posting is very similar. The biggest difference is you cannot shorten "quote" to "q" or "/quote" to "/q". And it's a flat forum of course, so all you can do is add a post, so sometimes @xxxx is needed, or click the "Quote" button as here. Just remember to delete anything unnecessary from the quote, as "full-quotes" are rightly frowned upon.
To do a link there back to here if you prefer, I usually click the "Link" icon then fill in the link and text. The resultant structure is identical to here but somehow if I just type/paste as here it doesn't work  .
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Thanks for replies, will see how it bounces back tomorrow. One question - if the Plusnet router is set up as instructed, with the password (Key) supplied, and indicates it is 'locked' in the SSID I can see for it, is it correct to assume it simply cannot be accessed without this password. I have not changed its settings since it arrived.
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From general access, yes, it's locked. A determined hacker can of course break most passwords. Though the default one on mine is quite complex, so I kept it that way.
In fact I no longer use the Plusnet one, but have used the same password on my new router, which makes swapping easy if mine dies.
At least the passwords aren't the same for all they send out!
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Not posted a conclusive update so far re: my slow evening speeds, as the issue is still being addressed, but is there a chance you could interpret this please from PN support: . . . I am aware of an issue in your area related to capacity causing slow speeds. I can confirm our suppliers capacity team have commissioned a new port, this has been added and the network rebalancing will commence over the coming week. What is a new port - could this be related to why the cabinet stopped accepting new connections so soon after it was first available (earlier post).
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That's confusing. (Not you - the PN message).
I've been thinking about it for a bit. It didn't make sense that your cabinet's initial cards were full so quickly, so perhaps there was a shortage of connections at the exchange. What that would be I have no idea, as even if I knew the detail of FTTC there, I've forgotten it  .
The cabinet fibre does end up on some sort of Openreach distribution board, and I believe the GEA-Cablelinks connect to that. Anyone wishing to sell FTTC has to buy one of those to connect to their own MSAN. So BT Wholesale, Sky, TalkTalk and in some exchanges Zen have to have at least one. (It was the different ordering/installation times of those that in the past sometimes meant the first three of those had FTTC availability at different times).
So what this new port is I can only guess.
It could be that the BT Wholesale GEA-Cablelink(s) were congested. Either from them not having bought enough, (I thought one was sufficient), or not being able to as there weren't enough ports for any more on the Openreach distribution board. Maybe CPs need one GEA-Cablelink per enabled MSAN [shrug].
That could be total rot, but is a feasible explanation. I expect it will be something along those lines.
Given possible congestion there it would make sense for BT Wholesale to stop accepting orders, but my theory shouldn't stop Sky/TT/Zen ordering. Therefore the cabinet should still be available. Except we are using the BT Wholesale checker! I wonder what a Sky or TT check shows?
Another possibility is some sort of concentrator on the outside world interface of that Openreach distribution board, and that more ports were needed there ....
And so on, in the light of my ignorance.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Dunno
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Thanks for trying, I don't feel such an idiot for asking now
Looking for an image-clue as to what a GEA-Cablelink is, the diagram and comment here on a TalkTalk forum, has a wry point to make about the cost of a GEA-Cablelink: Fibre rollout in town (third and fourth posts).
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most likely the exchange has hit capacity issues on backhaul and they waiting for a new port to be added. New port = new backhaul pipe.
congestion caused by cabinet to exchange backhaul is extremely unlikely.
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To update on this for anyone interested, the issue of evening speed drops on my connection has now been resolved with more capacity added at the exchange 550 circuits reorganised across 2 new virtual paths No speed drops at all for the past five days.
Edited by s_h (Tue 02-Dec-14 22:10:32)
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That's good.
Bad forward planning by BT Wholesale then. Perhaps they haven't adjusted their forecasting algorithms for FTTC rather than ADSLx level demands.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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Ticket 92492407
I find that web browsing does interrupt both Lync and Webex audio and video conferencing. Even connected by wire to my router.
PlusNet BBYW1
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If you are still on BBYW1 that isn't surprising. It has severe speed capping at various times of day on several protocols.
How much does that cost you?
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4 BQM IPv6 BQM
"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
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I wont take this thread too far off topic.
The point is that the traffic shaping does not work completely as it should and the problems happen at any time of the day.
PlusNet BBYW1
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I think RobertoS's point was that (from your signature) you appear to be on one of Plusnet's legacy products, with traffic management rules that are very different from the ones applied to the current fibre-based packages.
Those rules differ in the throttling, prioritisation, and in the time of day that various limits are in place - making it hard to compare.
http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/products/archi...
Your mention of Microsoft Lync is interesting, as it suggests corporate use. Are you using it over a VPN?
If so, you'll note (from the link) that PN treats VPN traffic as Gold in the BBYW option 1 package, rated identically to browsing, so making it plausible that interactions can be felt.
The package also places a 512Kbps limit 24x7 on VPN traffic; if both the conferencing and browsing occur over the VPN, this might explain why you see problems.
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Sure, I understood his point. No this is not over VPN.
Lync works just fine, no problem, until I refresh a few pages in Chrome, the audio breaks up.
Some HTTP traffic should not cause a break up of audio on Lync. I have a ticket open with PN about this which is being handled.
Regardless of package, VOIP is Titanium and should always be the highest priority compared to a little bit of HTTP traffic created by load a web page. The OP expressed a concern about the traffic management, it is clear it is not quite right.
The same problem exists with Lync and WebEx.
PlusNet BBYW1
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