Logistics of switching to fibre.

I'm on Wargrave exchange, currently on ADSL2+ with TalkTalk, my phone is with BT (using SMPF). My cabinet is about to be enabled for fibre (by 31/12/14). When it's available, I will probably switch to FTTC with Zen. However, I don't want to switch to fibre till Zen have a self install option, which they say will not be till some time in the new year.

Zen have suggested that I could switch my existing ADSL supply to them now then switch to fibre when self install becomes available. I'm not convinced this would be advisable. I think it would be simpler and safer to wait and switch direct from ADSL with TT to fibre with Zen, but I may be misunderstanding how the switches would be done. Can anyone confirm if my reasoning is correct?

As I understand it, to switch to fibre all that needs to be done externally is a simple connection of my line at the existing cabinet to the new fibre cabinet, and nothing needs to be done at the exchange.

However, if I switch ADSL2+ with TalkTalk to ADSL2+ with Zen, there will need to be changes at the exchange. I think that with an SMPF TalkTalk line, my telephone line must currently be routed to TT's equipment where the voice component gets split off and sent back to BT's equipment. If my ADSL service is switched to Zen (who use BTw) my incoming line will have to be connected to a different place on BT's MDF. I don't know whether this will just involve a Openreach engineer, or possible TT as well.

But switching my ADSL2 service now to Zen seems to introduce extra complexity and possibility for problems, and it would be simpler and safer to wait until I can switch direct from ADSL with TT to fibre with Zen.

Does my reasoning make sense?

In reply to a post by arnoldh:

Does my reasoning make sense?

I don't think so, I would say quite the opposite. If you have determined to move to Zen anyway then far better to get any complications regarding LLU out of the way now and move to Zen ADSL, then the switch to FTTC should be much simpler.

In reply to a post by kasg:

In reply to a post by arnoldh:

Does my reasoning make sense?

I don't think so, I would say quite the opposite. If you have determined to move to Zen anyway then far better to get any complications regarding LLU out of the way now and move to Zen ADSL, then the switch to FTTC should be much simpler.

But if I've understood correctly the switch to FTTC is all done at the cabinet, nothing at the exchange. So isn't anything that's done at the exchange today irrelevant when the line is eventually switched to FTTC?

In reply to a post by arnoldh:

So isn't anything that's done at the exchange today irrelevant when the line is eventually switched to FTTC?

Yes, that was largely my point

I would suggest going the route Zen suggest. That puts in in two distinct stages and less chance for problems and if they do occur, it will be easier to resolve. Doing both at the same time means that the FTTC connection at the cabinet needs to be made and the move of your line between frames needs to be co-ordinated and actioned correctly.


What you will need, for your own peace of mind is an email from Zen saying that when you do move from ADSL to FTTC there will be no penalty for early termination of the ADSL contract and that your FTTC will start from the transfer date.

I think we both agree ... I typed my reply a while back and forget to finish the submission!

Thanks for both responses.

My assumption was that the fibre link from the cabinet to the exchange carries all the FTTC connections - that they don't get split up at the exchange - and that's why I said nothing would have to be done at the exchange to move to FTTC later. But even if I've got this right, I'd forgotten my voice connections would have to be moved back to BT's equipment. So yes, I can now see it would be better to get ADSL switched first to get the phone connection sorted out.

I need to understand more about the technology. I've used this link as an aid to understanding ADSL connections. Is there anything similar for fibre?

Edited by deleted (Sun 23-Nov-14 21:34:01)

I can recommend http://robertos.me.uk/html/fttx.html (before he does it himself )

In his original post the OP states they are on SMPF, with 'BT' for voice, so no need to do anything other than cancel the TT ADSL once the FTTC is connected surely ?

It's been a while since I was in there, but don't recall any LLU equipment in Wargrave exchange.

I don't think that page really covers the point.

According to samknows, Wargrave has both TT and Sky LLU. Both post-2010 as it is shown as a Market 1 exchange. It is now Market B.

As it is SMPF he needs a MAC.

Edit - got the last sentence wrong way round, due to tiredness. As pointed out bt MeSaffron. Now corrected.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 24-Nov-14 00:51:53)

As its SMPF (proof is voice with BT) then get a MAC from TalkTalk and go to Zen now, the same static IP and authentication will be used for the fibre when it arrives, so gets all those changes out of the way

Ack !

Thanks. Too tired so said the opposite of what I meant. Fixed.

Thanks for all replies. I can now understand the benefit of doing this move in two stages.

The switch at the exchange from SMPF ADSL/TT voice/BT to ADSL/Zen voice/BT ought to be fairly simple. But is it?? Does anyone know if both TalkTalk and Openreach are involved? Does anyone know if there are horror stories of something like this going wrong?

Just a point you may have missed.

Although Zen line rental on ADSLx is only £11.22, on Zen FTTC it is £15.98, rising to £16.99 on 1 December.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Just a point you may have missed.

Although Zen line rental on ADSLx is only £11.22, on Zen FTTC it is £15.98, rising to £16.99 on 1 December.

I hadn't noticed Zen/ADSL line rental was £11.22. How can they do it at this price? Zen use BTw for the phone service, but BT charge their retail customers £16.99 line rental (from Dec). How can there be such a price differential?

Because the wholesale price is around the £9 mark.

It is a very simple task and they happen everyday. When it goes right - almost all of the time, no one says anything. If it goes wrong - people complain. That said, I have not heard of a disastrous case for a long long time, minor glitches maybe, but nothing that could not be easily resolved.

Don't worry about it.

In reply to a post by arnoldh:

Thanks for all replies. I can now understand the benefit of doing this move in two stages.

The switch at the exchange from SMPF ADSL/TT voice/BT to ADSL/Zen voice/BT ought to be fairly simple. But is it?? Does anyone know if both TalkTalk and Openreach are involved? Does anyone know if there are horror stories of something like this going wrong?

I was on TT for phone and ADSL broadband on a non LLU exchange - so not entirely the same as you but similar. Swapped both to Zen a few months back. Got MAC off TT rang up Zen and did it all over the phone in less than 10 minutes.

Zen sorted out all the details and dealt with TT direct, I had no further dealings with TT apart from paying the final bill. From what I remember, broadband swapped first (overnight around 4 days later) and then phone transferred around 10 days later at the end of the calender month.

I'm on a 20CN exchange with a long line, and no FTTC yet and used to suffer appalling congestion in peak times - dropping to less than 1Mbps during peak time (from 3Mbps). As none of the copper path changed I was expecting no difference. However after swapping to Zen, I got the same 3Mbps 24/7. All I can assume is that the actual congestion was on the TT/BTW link and that Zen have more bandwidth than TT.

I'm actually a few £s month better off than with TT as I was on an old legacy undiscounted package - a hangover from Tiscali days. After repeated faults with their email server, rubbish customer service and the line rental increase earlier in the year it was time to jump. Never looked back.

Edited by sidef (Mon 24-Nov-14 16:57:38)

According to samknows, Wargrave has both TT and Sky LLU

Told you I haven't been in there for a fair while

Used to be an exchange on my patch, but happily not for a fair few years. There's some proper nasty bits if you are a telephone engineer.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

In his original post the OP states they are on SMPF, with 'BT' for voice, so no need to do anything other than cancel the TT ADSL once the FTTC is connected surely ?

It's been a while since I was in there, but don't recall any LLU equipment in Wargrave exchange.

I too thought that all that was needed once FTTC was connected at the cabinet was to cancel the TT ADSL. But I think it's more complicated than that, and there has to be a change at the exchange.

I believe that with SMPF my incoming line first goes to BT's MDF, then gets routed to TT's LLU equipment, where it is then split into ADSL and voice. ADSL goes over TT's network, but the voice component gets sent back to BT's equipment. So although voice is still processed by BT both now and with FTTC, there will need to be reconfiguration at the exchange to remove the voice loop through TT's equipment.

At least that's how I understand an SMPF line is connected. I might be wrong.

Not quite

As yours is at the moment ....
Voice from BT Wholesale equipment is jumped through to the TT broadband ties, picking up the ADSL part of the service, then both go through to the bar pair and off to you house.

When a line has FTTC connected a filter in the DSLAM cabinet stops any ADSL signal from the exchange equipment carrying on down the D-side (the pair between the cabinet and you). So it doesn't matter what/whose DSL is coming down from the exchange, when you go FTTC it'll just be blocked out.

Which cabinet are you off of ?

In reply to a post by sidef:

In reply to a post by arnoldh:

Thanks for all replies. I can now understand the benefit of doing this move in two stages.

The switch at the exchange from SMPF ADSL/TT voice/BT to ADSL/Zen voice/BT ought to be fairly simple. But is it?? Does anyone know if both TalkTalk and Openreach are involved? Does anyone know if there are horror stories of something like this going wrong?

I was on TT for phone and ADSL broadband on a non LLU exchange - so not entirely the same as you but similar. Swapped both to Zen a few months back. Got MAC off TT rang up Zen and did it all over the phone in less than 10 minutes.

Zen sorted out all the details and dealt with TT direct, I had no further dealings with TT apart from paying the final bill. From what I remember, broadband swapped first (overnight around 4 days later) and then phone transferred around 10 days later at the end of the calender month.

I'm on a 20CN exchange with a long line, and no FTTC yet and used to suffer appalling congestion in peak times - dropping to less than 1Mbps during peak time (from 3Mbps). As none of the copper path changed I was expecting no difference. However after swapping to Zen, I got the same 3Mbps 24/7. All I can assume is that the actual congestion was on the TT/BTW link and that Zen have more bandwidth than TT.

I'm actually a few £s month better off than with TT as I was on an old legacy undiscounted package - a hangover from Tiscali days. After repeated faults with their email server, rubbish customer service and the line rental increase earlier in the year it was time to jump. Never looked back.

I am about to leave TT ADSL BB and TT phone (complete with TT line rental, no BT line rental billing) for Zen.

Talked to Zen today and they said I do not need a MAC code, they will do all the comunication with TT ? I did raise my surprise at not needing a MAC code but was told this is only required if transferring from a BT line rental arrangement.

Any comments ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Not quite

As yours is at the moment ....
Voice from BT Wholesale equipment is jumped through to the TT broadband ties, picking up the ADSL part of the service, then both go through to the bar pair and off to you house.

When a line has FTTC connected a filter in the DSLAM cabinet stops any ADSL signal from the exchange equipment carrying on down the D-side (the pair between the cabinet and you). So it doesn't matter what/whose DSL is coming down from the exchange, when you go FTTC it'll just be blocked out.

Which cabinet are you off of ?

I'm on cabinet 4 in Wargrave

In reply to a post by Sloth3636:

I am about to leave TT ADSL BB and TT phone (complete with TT line rental, no BT line rental billing) for Zen.

Talked to Zen today and they said I do not need a MAC code, they will do all the comunication with TT ? I did raise my surprise at not needing a MAC code but was told this is only required if transferring from a BT line rental arrangement.

Any comments ?

Probably correct.

Most TalkTalk phone and broadband bundles are full LLU (MPF). Moving both to another supplier of both does not need a MAC. To be absolutely sure, put your phone number into this checker. It should tell you the number is not recognised, or something like that.

The OP is on shared LLU (SMPF) with a "BT line". So a MAC is required. The person you replied to was not even on LLU so a MAC was required.

(There was no need to do that huge double quote by the way).

Junction of Victoria Rd and School Hill, for one dreadful moment I thought you might say cab 3 ....... there are some STUPIDLY long d-sides off there.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Junction of Victoria Rd and School Hill, for one dreadful moment I thought you might say cab 3 ....... there are some STUPIDLY long d-sides off there.

I think my connection to cab 4 is OK. When I first moved to TT/ADSL2+ I was getting 18Mbps, though it's now 16.5

The shortest lines off there would be those at the start of Victoria Rd. Look on the bright side, any closer and you'd be guaranteed to be on an EO cable !