Does a new Openreach cabinet mean fibre broadband?

I live in rural South Cambs, approx one mile of O/H to the cabinet. Although I have not been able to find a definitive statement as to whether/when we will get fibre, I noticed that there is a new OpenReach cabinet being installed in the village. (existing is EEAAR). Can I assume that this will be equipped with fibre? How long does it normally take from cabinet installation to being operational with fibre? If fibre is installed, will I need to request it or will it come automatically?

I am with Sky at the moment.

Cheers

Presume you mean Arrington which is (EAARR)

The three cabs 1,2 and 4 are pencilled in for FTTC, as for timescales cannot say. Is the new cab one with vent slots in it, then that is a fibre cabinet OR is it a new shell over the old telephone cab?

The former is a very big sign that work is underway, the latter is a good sign but some old street cabinets do get new shells now and then, so less a major sign.

NOTE: It is not uncommon for the various cabinets to go live at different times, rather than all at once, so knowing which is your cabinet is important.

In reply to a post by pdes:

If fibre is installed, will I need to request it or will it come automatically?

Nothing will happen automatically. You will need to upgrade to a fibre product with Sky or an alternative ISP.

Thanks for that.

Yes, Arrington. I didn't realize there were more than one so I don't know which it is.

I noticed the vents but TBH, it was only in passing. I'll take a closer look tonight.

Cheers

http://www.connectingcambridgeshire.co.uk/parish/arr...

Looking like September to December this year. If you will specifically be covered, who knows. Connecting Cambridgeshire does seem to be getting FTTC out to some fairly remote and previously unlikely places though, so a good chance.

With 1 mile of cable from you to the cabinet, do not expect to get FTTC with wonderful speeds. At a guess you are probably going to be in the sub-10Mbps range possibly as low as 5 Mbps and it will depend on a lot of factors especially noise which with that length of overhead could be a real issue.

That may be better than you currently get ... just wait and see what the BT DSL checker suggests.

That's pretty depressing I already get that with ADSL2+

All I am saying is don't get your hopes up... although when it happens you might be surprised.

Is there anything, as yet, on: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome or the address option.

The key is which cabinet are they connected to, it may be they are looking at the location of a different cabinet to the one they are connected to.

When you use the address checker at https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html what cabinet does it tell the original poster they are connected to.

Maybe, however, the OP does say 1 mile of overhead to the cabinet which I would suggest means they have followed the line.

Hi,

I looked at the checker and I am on Cab 4 but I don't see any map to pinpoint whether it is this cab I can see. However, when the OpenReach bods have been round, they tell me that it's O/H to the cab and the cab is "next to the pub" - which is the one I have seen being changed so I guess that's he one.

It's interesting to note that the ADSL checker says that I should get 1.5 to 3.5 Mb whereas I frequently sync at around 6Mb and normally D/L at 4.8 to 5MB. Not bad methinks for 1 mile of O/H and an Att of 51.7.

In reply to a post by MHC:

All I am saying is don't get your hopes up... although when it happens you might be surprised.

Is there anything, as yet, on: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome or the address option.

Nope, nothing other than I am on ADSL Max.

Cheers

Where is the cabinet that you can see, can you post a Google Maps link to it, and can you see any numbers on that cabinet?

Paul

This is cabinet 4 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.134279,-0.06075,3a...

Where the poster says, and at a guess they are located north along Ermine Way or off on one of the side roads and at 1 mile FTTC is going to be very hit or miss and may actually be slower than your ADSL

The majority of the other properties on the cabinet will get a decent boost in speeds though and that is the aim of the projects generally, rather than 100% of people in a particular area/cabinet.

Just trawled around Google maps and the site where the new cab is being installed doesn't currently have a cab. But, looking around the pub which is 50 yards away (South of the new one on the A1198) I found this: https://goo.gl/maps/kLHej

The New cab is being installed here: https://goo.gl/maps/gqJhq

Does that help?

Thanks

That is cab 4 ... move 20 yards right and teh number is visible.

If the new cab is 50m away, that is not a problem and often happens.

Yeah, just looked at that location and if I lived there and was walking around looking for the cabinet, I would of walked right past it, I have never seen a PCP Cabinet like that before.
TBH, I cannot see that supporting many addresses (currently checking), would of thought BTOR would of at least upgraded it to a more modern one.

As for FTTC speeds slow than our ADSL speeds, well that would really suck, but I have seen in some cases this has been the case where they had faster speeds on ADSL than they did with FTTC, would of thought vectoring would of helped some what, that's if its enabled yet.
I have noticed that a few postcodes on cabinet 4 are over 4km away from the exchange so like you said some may see a huge difference in speed.

But it all depends on where the new cabinet gets put, also due to where the PCP Cabinet looks well hmm, maybe they will get a "all in one" cabinet ?

*** Update ***

Exchange Name: Arrington
Exchange Code: EAARR

Cabinet: 4
Fibre Phase: Phase BDUK Cambridgeshire 13b
Fibre Information: FTTC Planned (exchange ready 12th November 2014)
Result Count: 217

That little cabinet is doing rather well considering it handles around 217 lines.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Tue 17-Feb-15 12:52:09)

Doh!!! TBH I wasn't even sure this was a cab. Nothing like I have seen before and I used to work for BT!

In reply to a post by pdes:

Doh!!! TBH I wasn't even sure this was a cab. Nothing like I have seen before and I used to work for BT!

Yeah, when I saw a Google Map view of it I was like you sure its a PCP Cabinet, and if I lived in that area I would of just walked past it while searching for it.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Yeah, just looked at that location and if I lived there and was walking around looking for the cabinet, I would of walked right past it, I have never seen a PCP Cabinet like that before.
TBH, I cannot see that supporting many addresses (currently checking), would of thought BTOR would of at least upgraded it to a more modern one.

Why change it? Small and unobtrusive, the locals would complain about a replacement being much larger!

There may well have been objections from someone about the FTTC twin going there as it does look as though it might be a verge owned by a house owner. Here, my neighbours own a 1.2 metre strip in front of their walls/fences.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Why change it? Small and unobtrusive, the locals would complain about a replacement being much larger!

This is true, but saying that a new PCP Cabinet or a new small PCP Cabinet could still be hidden due to the bushes around it, but yeah it may be an issue if changed and people have got use to the old one, or even hates the look of the new one.

In reply to a post by MHC:

There may well have been objections from someone about the FTTC twin going there as it does look as though it might be a verge owned by a house owner. Here, my neighbours own a 1.2 metre strip in front of their walls/fences.

I have heard that some places people have hated the look of the new cabinets which ended up being removed.

We live down a road where the front windows have to be made of wood and has to be victorian sash windows and the front doors need to look victorian, don't get me started about the front garden path.
So yeah, I get and understand that.

Paul

I could have sworn I wrote this earlier but can't find it so apologies if it's a duplicate!

My question was, my ATTN is currently 51.7 as the exchange is approx 3.8km. Would a new cabinet be "active" and therefore, would my ATTN be reduced to just the wire length to the cab?

In reply to a post by pdes:

I could have sworn I wrote this earlier but can't find it so apologies if it's a duplicate!

My question was, my ATTN is currently 51.7 as the exchange is approx 3.8km. Would a new cabinet be "active" and therefore, would my ATTN be reduced to just the wire length to the cab?

Well to me (may be wrong) 51.7 is rather high, I cannot confirm this due to our other ADSL line (SKY Pro) has been cancelled so I can no longer see these stats, and our HH4 doesn't show this, but I recall ours being in the 40 to 43dB mark and we are about 3.5km from our exchange going through our cabinet.
So maybe 51.7 is about right.

Also if its old cable then it might be higher.

As for it reducing when you get fibre, erm, I think it should, copper wire has a loss leading to attenuation so the longer it runs the higher it goes, so in theory if the copper line is reduced i.e. from the new fibre cabinet to your home you "should" have a lower attenuation value.

Paul

In reply to a post by pdes:

Would a new cabinet be "active" and therefore, would my ATTN be reduced to just the wire length to the cab?

Your line length does not actually change just because the cabinet has been FTTC enabled. Only when you sign up for and connect to the FTTC service will the 'data' part of the connection travel over the wire between the Cabinet and your House, at that time Yes your attenuation should drop.

I have deliberately omitted some details for simplicity.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Well to me (may be wrong) 51.7 is rather high, I cannot confirm this due to our other ADSL line (SKY Pro) has been cancelled so I can no longer see these stats, and our HH4 doesn't show this, but I recall ours being in the 40 to 43dB mark and we are about 3.5km from our exchange going through our cabinet.
So maybe 51.7 is about right.

Also if its old cable then it might be higher.

As for it reducing when you get fibre, erm, I think it should, copper wire has a loss leading to attenuation so the longer it runs the higher it goes, so in theory if the copper line is reduced i.e. from the new fibre cabinet to your home you "should" have a lower attenuation value.


Thanks Paul. If you look at the chart here: http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2012/graph-A... it looks as though my SNR and speed are in line. What's good for me is that if my ATTN is reduced to around 23, then according to the chart, I should get around 20mb! Deep joy (and watch out for the low flying pigs!).

David

It is about right for that distance. I am around 3.1 km from my exchange and on ADSL2+ the attenuation was around 46 dB (from memory), so the extra 0.7km could add 6dB.

When you get fibre, the attenuation will be measured on your line from house to PCP (cabinet) plus the distance from PCP to the FTTC twin and should thus be significantly lower

In reply to a post by pdes:

Thanks Paul. If you look at the chart here: http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2012/graph-A... it looks as though my SNR and speed are in line. What's good for me is that if my ATTN is reduced to around 23, then according to the chart, I should get around 20mb! Deep joy (and watch out for the low flying pigs!).

David

No, the attenuation for ADSL would remain the same, a fibre connection (VDSL) would be based on a lower attenuation.

Yep, get that but I now have a little light at the end of the tunnel! My current modem is the excellent Asus DSL AC 86U whose only failing is that it is not happy on long lines, i.e. over 2.7km. This would/should stabilize my connection as I wouldn't need a broadcom-based router.

Can't wait to sign something!!

David

In reply to a post by pdes:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Well to me (may be wrong) 51.7 is rather high, I cannot confirm this due to our other ADSL line (SKY Pro) has been cancelled so I can no longer see these stats, and our HH4 doesn't show this, but I recall ours being in the 40 to 43dB mark and we are about 3.5km from our exchange going through our cabinet.
So maybe 51.7 is about right.

Also if its old cable then it might be higher.

As for it reducing when you get fibre, erm, I think it should, copper wire has a loss leading to attenuation so the longer it runs the higher it goes, so in theory if the copper line is reduced i.e. from the new fibre cabinet to your home you "should" have a lower attenuation value.

Thanks Paul. If you look at the chart here: http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2012/graph-A... it looks as though my SNR and speed are in line. What's good for me is that if my ATTN is reduced to around 23, then according to the chart, I should get around 20mb! Deep joy (and watch out for the low flying pigs!).

David

Well I think you would get around 15Mbps for an attenuation of 23dB along with an SNR of 6.0dB, so ATTN + SNR = your sync speed.

But you would never get that speed, like said in the other new post said your attenuation won't change just because a fibre cabinet was installed, I was referring if you got fibre, then your attenuation would change due to you would be using fibre to the cabinet and then it hops over to your copper phone line to your house, so that is when your attenuation would be reduced, so you would need to upgrade to fibre for that.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

Paul

And you the end-user have to make the active choice to order the VDSL (fibre) connection to benefit from the faster speed options.

In reply to a post by MHC:

That is cab 4 ... move 20 yards right and teh number is visible.

If the new cab is 50m away, that is not a problem and often happens.

Had another look in the daylight and the new cab is actually only four feet from the old.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

*** Update ***

Exchange Name: Arrington
Exchange Code: EAARR

Cabinet: 4
Fibre Phase: Phase BDUK Cambridgeshire 13b
Fibre Information: FTTC Planned (exchange ready 12th November 2014)
Result Count: 217

That little cabinet is doing rather well considering it handles around 217 lines.

Paul

Hi Paul,


Is this public info or do you have an inside track? I trawled around but couldn't find this level of detail.

Seeing as the exchange is "ready", and the cab is being installed, what would be the expected availability time-scale of the new service? We have had a general statement that it will be ready late 2015 but that seems a long way off considering the progress that seems to be being made.

David

A few weeks to a few months,

Power, link between the two cabinets and fibre feed are needed once the cabinet has been stood up. Dropping off the cabinet and onto its plinth is the easy bit

In reply to a post by pdes:

Hi Paul,

Is this public info or do you have an inside track? I trawled around but couldn't find this level of detail.

Its all public info, I just do loads of checks.

Like I have the Exchange Name and Code where I can get all the Cabinets and all the postcodes used by them, I then have an application that I wrote that does speed checks (using BT's DSL Checker) for all addresses for each postcode one at a time (with a small delay between requests), from the results I can calculate the best and worst speeds for a post code and cabinet, and it then outputs the result, which is what I post on here.

In reply to a post by pdes:

Seeing as the exchange is "ready", and the cab is being installed, what would be the expected availability time-scale of the new service? We have had a general statement that it will be ready late 2015 but that seems a long way off considering the progress that seems to be being made.

David

As for activation dates, I have no clue, however I have seen for other cabinets for other exchanges have a March 2015, so could also be March to mid 2015.

Paul

Well, the new cab has been installed and the big purple sticker has been stuck on the front! What happens next? Does this mean that the service will be offered shortly or is it likely that there will still be a wait? I have performed all the normal searches but none of the "status" websites has been updated. They still say "on our plan" and due by the end of 2015 etc. Does Sky tell me when I can order? Can you tell I am getting impatient!!

Thanks

I couldn't edit my previous but just to save any work by anyone, I have had my order accepted!! Fingers crossed for a more stable connection!

As Paul has said, the distance for the VDSL to travel is the existing copper distance form your house to the PCP, plus the Link Length from the PCP to the FTTC, compared to the full copper length from your house to your exchange for ADSL.


In my case

ADSL "1,286 Metres", 24 db Line Attenuation.

VDSL2 about 300 Metres, 14.9 db Line Attenuation, 11.4 db Noise Margin


Ironically, the FTTC is about 10 Metres from my front door; and the PCP is about 40 M further away; but although there are no significant obstructions on what was a green-field site, the FTTC to PCP is extended by a total of 10 M by going away from the PCP by 5 M before doing an about turn to go to the PCP.

Then the phone line from the PCP to my house, first heads about 125 M away, before doubling back, hence the total of about 300 Metres.


And it also implies that the traditional phone length to the Exchange has increased from 1,286 M to 1,386 M, due to the double linking between the PCP and the FTTC.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

And it also implies that the traditional phone length to the Exchange has increased from 1,286 M to 1,386 M, due to the double linking between the PCP and the FTTC.

Yes and no .

Only on lines that have FTTC, or possibly have had but have not been put back on ADSLx.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

And it also implies that the traditional phone length to the Exchange has increased from 1,286 M to 1,386 M, due to the double linking between the PCP and the FTTC.

Er, no.

The FTTC cabinet doesn't represent a new way to get traditional phone back to an exchange. It's completely irrelevant to traditional phone, or say exchange-based ADSL, or anything where the distance to the exchange matters. For someone who doesn't buy FTTC service it's as if the new cabinet was never even built.

Even if you buy FTTC service POTS phone call signals (low frequencies) continue to travel to the PCP, and then to the exchange, having nothing to do with any FTTC infrastructure.

(Edit: Hmm, it occurs to me I don't know for sure where the filter step is done, if it's the FTTC cabinet then phone calls would actually loop over that 50m of extra distance for FTTC subscribers, although, you know, it's only a phone call so...)

Only the VDSL signals from the new service are diverted, they're travelling over that extra 50 metres of cable from the PCP to the FTTC cabinet, but they don't go around in a loop. The FTTC cabinet is using glass fibre for network connectivity, not linking back to the exchange via the PCP. In fact, the fibre used might not lead to your "home" exchange at all, there's no reason it has to. The length of the fibre could hardly matter less, so it's largely meaningless to talk of the "length to the exchange" for fibre unless you're the guys charged with digging the trenches or buying the fibre.

[ Edited to point out that I'm fuzzy on part of this ]

Edited by deleted (Fri 29-May-15 17:20:10)

In reply to a post by tialaramex:

Even if you buy FTTC service POTS phone call signals (low frequencies) continue to travel to the PCP, and then to the exchange, having nothing to do with any FTTC infrastructure.

(Edit: Hmm, it occurs to me I don't know for sure where the filter step is done, if it's the FTTC cabinet then phone calls would actually loop over that 50m of extra distance for FTTC subscribers, although, you know, it's only a phone call so...)[ Edited to point out that I'm fuzzy on part of this ]

Your original statement there was incorrect. Your edited version is correct.

The VDSL2 is added to and removed from the circuit at the FTTC cabinet.

If FTTC is cancelled at the premises that loop may be left in place, with no VDSL2 supply. Only if that particular loop becomes necessary for a different line, (presumably from the linking cable being fully used), or if the line concerned has ADSLx ordered on it in the future, does the linking normally get removed. See this recent thread.

If you have watched the actual change-over being done as I have - and also read the postings of others, the total COPPER Length from the house phone to the exchange is increased by twice the length between the PCP and the FTTC - by the Double Link required to extend the E side from the PCP to the FTTC, then return back to the D side in the PCP and onward to the house - now also conveying the VDSL signals.

Agreed only if you do not buy an FTTC service, then there is no need to divert the line to the FTTC and back to the PCP.

As the OP was asking what happens when and if he goes over to FTTC/VDSL and has just managed to order it, this extension of the D side on his rather long line becomes rather significant.

Of course, exactly how long this extra is is highly dependent on the precise positioning of the FTTC relative to the PCP and the precise routing of that part of the double link.

Within the three-lid U/G chamber outside my house, that Link cable, substantial in itself, comes in at the north end from the FTTC about 4 metres away - and makes its way to the south end and returns north to the PCP in a large loop, so at least two metres Link Cable length within the chamber itself, possibly three metres by the time you allow for the climbing up to loop down and back.

The Link cable in this chamber is about 75 mm Diameter, around 3 inches, so not readily folded back on itself or go round tight corners.

I can see in to both the chamber and the FTTC from my lounge window, when work is being carried out in them.

Yes, the FTTC has a back-plane of 300 sockets, of which 288 may be eventually used. (Not seen a full explanation of this.)

48 of the Filter Links were fitted in March 2014, in to the first two back-plane sections.

Then another 48 were fitted late April 2015; and I was actually speaking to the technician as he inserted this second batch.

It IS the POTS signals on the appropriate lines that are diverted in and out of the FTTC. Cabinet, as corresponding orders are implemented.

The VDSL signals, being new, are not "diverted", although linked on to the returning diverted Copper D side as it returns to the PCP and onwards to the house etc, with the Filter section of the Filter Link being in the diverted/lengthened E side

Nowhere did I suggest or intend to suggest that the Fibre side of the FTTC goes to the PCP for any technical reason, as you say it goes back usually to the same exchange; but apparently in many cases to another, probably larger exchange.

Agreed in practice, the Fibre length is inconsequential, hence my referring to "copper", to try to clearly distinguish between them, as it is the Copper length from the FTTC to the PCP and onward to the home that is important for Attenuation, Noise etc.

I first got involved with Fibre for telecommunications back in 1990, when a company organised a private demonstration for me.

And the general transmission modes of Light in fibre are strikingly similar to electro-magnetic radiation transmission in waveguides, part of the courses I taught back in the late 1950s.

Edited by deleted (Sat 30-May-15 07:23:02)

Agreed Robertos.

Well, the waiting's over!! I was hooked up to FTTC on 17th June - and what a let-down!!!

Under ADSL2+, I had an attn of around 58db so my D/L being 5mb was fine. This proved to me that my line was pretty good.

My Attn under FTTC is 37db. This is in line with the distance to the cab of around 1.9Km. All reference docs say that I should get around 12 to 18Mb D/L and Sky advised that I should get 8-14. However, I get 6.3Mb at best with no change to the U/L performance.

How can it be that I have halved my Attn but have virtually no improvement in service other than a slightly more stable SNR and a few less errors?

Openreach came round last week and, as expected said all the line conditions were perfect.

Because attenuation is related to frequency and VDSL2 does not perform very well over a long line.

Around 1.9km and the Sky estimate sounds roughly right, but that is the problem with estimates, only until its live can you know what speed you will get.

Line conditions can be perfect, but distance is a killer for FTTC and you are unfortunately in the rare 1 to 2% with lines that long.

It sucks but not a lot can be done, and probably won't be until your area is targeting 100% superfast coverage.

Where in the house are you connecting? At the master socket, or an extension. What happens if you connect through the internal test socket inside the master, not the external socket?

The higher speeds of VDSL2 drop off very quickly over distance.

However, theoretically, VDSL2 ought to have long-range performance to match that of ADSL2+.

However, this theoretical long range performance has to be crippled in practice, deliberately, in order to prevent interference of cabinet-based VDSL2 with exchange-based ADSL and ADSL2+.

The maximum range on standard copper is somewhere around the 2km region, though it can be much longer if thicker copper was originally deployed. Ironically, it tends to be the upstream that gives up first.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Where in the house are you connecting? At the master socket, or an extension. What happens if you connect through the internal test socket inside the master, not the external socket?

I am directly connected to the MK3 faceplate. It was he same performance from the test socket.

Rgds

Are there any extensions in the house? If so, does a telephone plugged into any of them (all need to be checked) work when both the master faceplate and the VDSL2 filter are removed? I.e. the test socket is exposed and unused.

If any do work in that state you have star wiring which is anathema to FTTC.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Are there any extensions in the house? If so, does a telephone plugged into any of them (all need to be checked) work when both the master faceplate and the VDSL2 filter are removed? I.e. the test socket is exposed and unused.

If any do work in that state you have star wiring which is anathema to FTTC.

Sorry, I responded but it hasn't appeared! All extensions are completely isolated at the incoming point.

Cheers