Fibre in cab - BDUK funding still required?

Hi All,
OpenReach came today and blew fibre to the man hole literally 5m from my house. I spoke with the engineer in charge and he said that all that needs to happen now is the fibre connection from the manhole to the house.

I know that as part of the BDUK roll out cabinet 44T on SMBF was due to get FTTH this month. The engineer said that they did that cabinet last week and now they are doing 49T/manhole as part of the same BDUK rollout

My questions, now that fibre is there ready to be connected, are:

• Why would OpenReach still need BDUK funding for my cab (49T)? As this is now just a FTTH install?
• Does the fact that some houses are still connected to TPON make a difference? E.g. Is extra work required to get them connected to fibre?

Thanks
Satpal

As far as I knew P44T was part of the BDUK roll-out for FTTP and P49T was neither commercial or BDUK, i.e. no plans

The no plan thing does change, and also the engineering staff do sometimes have duff info.

With FTTP it is less about the cabinet and more about the fibre splitters and manifolds in the ground (or on poles).

It may be you live on the boundary between cab 44T and 49T and will be missing out which is likely if you are in postcode MK42 9GH

Thanks for speedy reply.

They have had duff info before because they have install a brand FTTC cab at the end of the road. The engineer came round specially after to tell me that the cab was useless because this part of the estate was getting FTTH. They would have needed to run copper from the exchange to carry the voice. He said that they were putting in 'fibre 96'. They were there for ~3hours.
I forgot to say that the cabinet (49T) is next to the manhole.

So the long and short of it is that there Is, more work required before an engineer can come and install FTTH. Which would require BDUK funding?

Thanks again
Satpal

So the long and short of it is that there Is, more work required before an engineer can come and install FTTH.

It is possible that more work is needed - we don't know what has happened with the fibre(s) further up towards the exchange head-end. Things might not be connected there yet.

You'll be able to order when the DSL checker says that the service is available. One of these pages should help:
Telephone Number Checker: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome
Address Checker: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/ADSLChecker.Addres...
Don't use the 3rd option - the postcode checker.

Which would require BDUK funding?

I'm not sure why you are asking about BDUK funding.

Do you think that BDUK funds installations in individual homes? That you have to apply to BDUK to get your home funded, and they send you a cheque?

It doesn't work that way. BT calculate how much money it will cost to upgrade a cabinet (with FTTC) or to upgrade the cabinet area (with FTTP); when this costs more than a threshold, they will get the local council's BDUK project to pay the excess costs.

Once the council has agreed to meet those excess costs, BT go ahead and plan the work needed to get fibre infrastructure into your area - either supplying an FTTC cabinet, or getting the FTTP gubbins to nearby manholes. Once installed, BT can invoice the council directly for those excess costs - for the whole of the cabinet or cabinet area in one go, not for individual homes.

Once the FTTP stuff is properly installed nearby, and the BT checker databases updated, you'll be able to order a BT Infinity package from BT Retail in the same way anyone with FTTC could. There is no extra funding that you will need to provide at a retail/consumer level, as BDUK will have done that behind the scenes direct with BT Openreach.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

So the long and short of it is that there Is, more work required before an engineer can come and install FTTH.

It is possible that more work is needed - we don't know what has happened with the fibre(s) further up towards the exchange head-end. Things might not be connected there yet.

If what the engineer said then it's already connected at the head end, implying that we just needed to order.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

You'll be able to order when the DSL checker says that the service is available. One of these pages should help:
Telephone Number Checker: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome
Address Checker: http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/ADSLChecker.Addres...
Don't use the 3rd option - the postcode checker.

The number checker says:

FTTC is currently not available on this cabinet due to following reasons:- This cabinet is under review. We'll explore fibre broadband solutions & will update once done..

The postcode checker says nothing with regard to FTTC/H. OpenReach had erected a FTTC cabinet at the end of the road which is not going to be used, due the fact that they would need to run brand new copper cable back to the exchange for voice, atleast thats what the engineer said.
The OpenReach Where and When site says that the cabinet is already enabled for superfast, with both number and postcode address checker. However this could be due to that that we have TPON and that is considered Fibre, well thats what the engineer assumed.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Which would require BDUK funding?

I'm not sure why you are asking about BDUK funding.

This work has been done due to cabinet 44T getting FFTH this month as per agreement in phase 1 of Bedford councils BDUK rollout. OpenReach did not realise until around last August that they were not going to cover cab 49T as part of their standard rollout. Therefore we have missed phase 1 of funding.
Now the council is saying that phase 2 is out to tender and we may/may not get funding depending on cost per house. The tender process finishes in early April and rollout in 2016.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Do you think that BDUK funds installations in individual homes? That you have to apply to BDUK to get your home funded, and they send you a cheque?

It doesn't work that way. BT calculate how much money it will cost to upgrade a cabinet (with FTTC) or to upgrade the cabinet area (with FTTP); when this costs more than a threshold, they will get the local council's BDUK project to pay the excess costs.

It appears that the majority work for that has already been done. Given that apparently cab 49T is 'the spine' cab. Therefore I was wondering if the residents could pay for the last phase of installation, whatever that maybe. It's not going to be the 30K+ that one of the residents was quote by Virgin to run cable across the road to his house.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Once the council has agreed to meet those excess costs, BT go ahead and plan the work needed to get fibre infrastructure into your area - either supplying an FTTC cabinet, or getting the FTTP gubbins to nearby manholes. Once installed, BT can invoice the council directly for those excess costs - for the whole of the cabinet or cabinet area in one go, not for individual homes.

What 'gubbins' are required? I get the feeling the engineers yesterday just blew the fibre required to the manhole. I could be wrong given the engineer implied that we should be able to order.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Once the FTTP stuff is properly installed nearby, and the BT checker databases updated, you'll be able to order a BT Infinity package from BT Retail in the same way anyone with FTTC could. There is no extra funding that you will need to provide at a retail/consumer level, as BDUK will have done that behind the scenes direct with BT Openreach.

Thanks
Satpal

Detail is the key here...

You may have a manhole outside your home that is ready for FTTH, but it may NOT be the manhole you are connected to, and am guessing you are on the edge of two cabinets, without a full address difficult to say a lot more. Guessing is fun, but ultimately it is confusing you.

NOTE: A existing TPON cabinet WILL NOT mean an area shows as fibre enabled.

What exist hardware was in the manhole, you can ID it using http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/fibre-milton-keynes/ which has everything they shove in the ground for a FTTP roll-out.

In terms of residents paying for it, probably looking at £1,500 plus for each property if you are going to gap fund yourselves when Openreach has previously decided to not take the risk, and would need 15 to 20 of you to commit to this sort of spending for it to happen. Even then it might be a year or more since they are very busy and fitting you into the timeline will be difficult, particularly as council projects have deadlines looming.

IMPORTANT: For those properties served by the manhole you have seen, if it has fibre blown to the manifold and the GPON is active, then when they order FTTP the final bit of fibre over their garden etc is installed and this has a wholesale cost of £99+VAT but is often done for free at the retail level.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Detail is the key here...

You may have a manhole outside your home that is ready for FTTH, but it may NOT be the manhole you are connected to, and am guessing you are on the edge of two cabinets, without a full address difficult to say a lot more. Guessing is fun, but ultimately it is confusing you.

I can say with some certainty that I'm connected to cab 49T which the cab next to my house. This is because the ADSL checker says I am and OpenReach said I was when I contacted them. They're is always a chance that I'm not connected to the cab, if that was the case then there would alot of people with duff information including BT/OpenReach (wouldn't be too much of shock).

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

NOTE: A existing TPON cabinet WILL NOT mean an area shows as fibre enabled.

Thanks for the clarification. So where is the When and Where checker getting it's information from?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

What exist hardware was in the manhole, you can ID it using http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/fibre-milton-keynes/ which has everything they shove in the ground for a FTTP roll-out.

I did not see what they finally installed yesterday. From pervious viewings it was just a really big end cap for alot of armoured cable - sorry.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

In terms of residents paying for it, probably looking at £1,500 plus for each property if you are going to gap fund yourselves when Openreach has previously decided to not take the risk, and would need 15 to 20 of you to commit to this sort of spending for it to happen. Even then it might be a year or more since they are very busy and fitting you into the timeline will be difficult, particularly as council projects have deadlines looming.

IMPORTANT: For those properties served by the manhole you have seen, if it has fibre blown to the manifold and the GPON is active, then when they order FTTP the final bit of fibre over their garden etc is installed and this has a wholesale cost of £99+VAT but is often done for free at the retail level.

Thanks for all the details. I have PM'd you my details.
Satpal

No armoured cable used for the fibre, just a black pipe 1 inch in diameter with yellow stripe on it, that carries a dozen or so smaller tubes that the fibre is then blown in.

I used "fibre gubbins" as a catchall, as we can't be sure exactly what is required in your particular manhole.

What is needed through the cabinet area amounts to:
- A fibre spine, made up of a chain of aggregation nodes, routing back to the head end.
One of the aggregation nodes will be designated as the connection point for your cabinet area. They are likely to lie on the existing E-side copper routes, and close to some, if not all, PCPs.
- Fibre(s) connecting to the Aggregation Node
- Those fibres will run to a splitter node, or a chain of splitter nodes, in your cabinet area.
These fibre will likely be in COF-201 mini-cable; this multi-strand cable can be blown down ducting, but individual fibres are not blown in BFT in this part of the network.
- Splitter node(s) located in some of the manholes
A splitter node can supply up to 128 properties.
- Fibre from the splitter node to a Fibre Distribution Point.
This fibre is probably physically similar to that above.
- Fibre DP located in a manhole relatively close to you
A fibre DP can supply up to 20 or 24 properties.
- BFT from the fibre DP to a 12-tube or 7-tube manifold
- Manifold located in a manhole very close to you, or at the top of a pole.

When you order, the BFT gets extended from the manifold to your house, and individual fibres get blown from the Fibre DP through the BFT into an external splice point - a small box on the outside of your house.

That is slightly contrary to what MrSaffron says - he mentions that fibre is blown as far as the manifold before you order, which would imply that a splice is done in the manifold. My belief is that the manifold will only hold an airtight joint in the BFT, not a splice (unlikely at the top of a pole) and that fibre will only be blown through that joint (from the Fibre DP) after you have placed your order.

As you can see, there is quite a lot of infrastructure that needs to be in place ... and what you have seen in the manhole could be a splitter node, fibre DP or a manifold. A "really big end cap" sounds more likely to be a splitter node, than anything else. I guess it depends on your definition of "really big".

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

No armoured cable used for the fibre, just a black pipe 1 inch in diameter with yellow stripe on it, that carries a dozen or so smaller tubes that the fibre is then blown in.

This I definitely saw.

satpal

This is alot of information - Thank you.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I used "fibre gubbins" as a catchall, as we can't be sure exactly what is required in your particular manhole.

What is needed through the cabinet area amounts to:
- A fibre spine, made up of a chain of aggregation nodes, routing back to the head end.
One of the aggregation nodes will be designated as the connection point for your cabinet area. They are likely to lie on the existing E-side copper routes, and close to some, if not all, PCPs.

The engineers said that cab 49T was the spine and that they were installing 'fibre 96' or something.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

- Fibre(s) connecting to the Aggregation Node
- Those fibres will run to a splitter node, or a chain of splitter nodes, in your cabinet area.
These fibre will likely be in COF-201 mini-cable; this multi-strand cable can be blown down ducting, but individual fibres are not blown in BFT in this part of the network.
- Splitter node(s) located in some of the manholes
A splitter node can supply up to 128 properties.

Interestingly their are approx 120 properties that would be served by the cab. If the information I got from Mr Saffron is to go by.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

- Fibre from the splitter node to a Fibre Distribution Point.
This fibre is probably physically similar to that above.
- Fibre DP located in a manhole relatively close to you
A fibre DP can supply up to 20 or 24 properties.
- BFT from the fibre DP to a 12-tube or 7-tube manifold
- Manifold located in a manhole very close to you, or at the top of a pole.

When you order, the BFT gets extended from the manifold to your house, and individual fibres get blown from the Fibre DP through the BFT into an external splice point - a small box on the outside of your house.

That is slightly contrary to what MrSaffron says - he mentions that fibre is blown as far as the manifold before you order, which would imply that a splice is done in the manifold. My belief is that the manifold will only hold an airtight joint in the BFT, not a splice (unlikely at the top of a pole) and that fibre will only be blown through that joint (from the Fibre DP) after you have placed your order.

As you can see, there is quite a lot of infrastructure that needs to be in place ... and what you have seen in the manhole could be a splitter node, fibre DP or a manifold. A "really big end cap" sounds more likely to be a splitter node, than anything else. I guess it depends on your definition of "really big".

Again thank you for the wealth of information. Lets see what OpenReach do, if anything, mostly likely, they will sit on it and wait for BDUK/Council to cough up more cash.

Satpal

Found this document, gave a lot of images and description of 'what goes in the ground'. Found it as I did not what some of of your TLA's were, such as BFT.

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/contactus/conne...

In reply to a post by schander:

The engineers said that cab 49T was the spine and that they were installing 'fibre 96' or something.

The cable used for the spine (exchange to Aggregation Nodes) seems to be known as COF200, and can come with a varying number of fibres within - but always in multiples of 12, up to 288 fibres.

The mini-cable used beyond that (from aggregation node to splitter nodes, and on to Fibre DP) is known as COF201, and comes in sizes up to 144, but again with multiples of 12.

96 is a valid fibre count in both options.

Each group of 12 fibres comes within its own tube inside the cable, and the group seems to be called a "fibre element"

In reply to a post by godsell4:

Found this document, gave a lot of images and description of 'what goes in the ground'. Found it as I did not what some of of your TLA's were, such as BFT.

Ooops - sorry.

If you really want details, take a look at this thread

Whoa thats alot of info.

Thanks
Satpal

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by godsell4:

Found this document, gave a lot of images and description of 'what goes in the ground'. Found it as I did not what some of of your TLA's were, such as BFT.

Ooops - sorry.

If you really want details, take a look at this thread

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

What exist hardware was in the manhole, you can ID it using http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/fibre-milton-keynes/ which has everything they shove in the ground for a FTTP roll-out.

I recently got a look at what was in the manhole and I can confirm it was this although mounted horizontally. Not sure if it's going help with roll out timings

Cheers
Satpal

Yeah, we have the same in our BT pit (it folds over) and have done since end of 2011, yet we are still waiting for our fibre, only difference is we are part of Greater London so we are not covered by any BDUK funding

Actually if I recall we have what looks like this one IMG_4351.JPG in out BT pit by our pole i.e. its like a rectangle black box that rotates and can be pulled up.
When I last saw our fibre manifold back in end of 2011 it had 20 odd plastic layers, so I assume it supports up to that amount of homes which is about right for the homes connected to our pole.

The round one I think is the Aggregation Node, but I may be wrong.

Edited by PaulKirby (Mon 20-Apr-15 16:54:53)

Yours was probably the last one on this page:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4375161-fib...

IIRC, it covers 24 homes.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Yours was probably the last one on this page:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4375161-fib...

IIRC, it covers 24 homes.

Yeah, if I recall it looks like the one on page 3, paragraph 3.6 (FDP), its been 3.5 years since I last saw it, I know its not the round version (Aggregation Node) I think that one is one of BT's pit at the junction off the main road, BT did some work on that the end of February.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Yours was probably the last one on this page:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4375161-fib...

IIRC, it covers 24 homes.

Thanks for the links. It looks like it's an aggregation node.
However the engineer that was there at the time I saw it, was a little dubious about FTTH, as he thought the ducting around our part of the estate was a little tight (sharp bends).

Satpal

In reply to a post by schander:

Thanks for the links. It looks like it's an aggregation node.
However the engineer that was there at the time I saw it, was a little dubious about FTTH, as he thought the ducting around our part of the estate was a little tight (sharp bends).

If it was an aggregation node (a splitter node looks similar from the outside), it doesn't tell you much - those exist in the fibre spine for the FTTC rollout too, and will be shared by both.

In reply to a post by schander:

Thanks for the links. It looks like it's an aggregation node.
However the engineer that was there at the time I saw it, was a little dubious about FTTH, as he thought the ducting around our part of the estate was a little tight (sharp bends).

Satpal

Are you sure your not getting mixed up with the phone line manifold (shielded enclosure) they are sort of the same shape as what your describing but a little bit smaller.

I am not too sure you would get an aggregation node in a BT pit by the pole feeding homes.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Tue 21-Apr-15 11:15:25)

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by schander:

Thanks for the links. It looks like it's an aggregation node.
However the engineer that was there at the time I saw it, was a little dubious about FTTH, as he thought the ducting around our part of the estate was a little tight (sharp bends).

If it was an aggregation node (a splitter node looks similar from the outside), it doesn't tell you much - those exist in the fibre spine for the FTTC rollout too, and will be shared by both.

Oh Ok. All I know is that we are at the end of our estate and there are approx 100 house on the TPON cabinet/Copper Overaly next ot the pit.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by schander:

Thanks for the links. It looks like it's an aggregation node.
However the engineer that was there at the time I saw it, was a little dubious about FTTH, as he thought the ducting around our part of the estate was a little tight (sharp bends).

Satpal

Are you sure your not getting mixed up with the phone line manifold (shielded enclosure) they are sort of the same shape as what your describing but a little bit smaller.

I am not too sure you would get an aggregation node in a BT pit by the pole feeding homes.

Paul

This was definitely installed recently when OpenReach blew in the fiber, as they said that cabinet/pit was the spine. It need to be done so the cabinet next road down could be connected for FTTH/P, under BDUK

Thanks
Satpal

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread.

I was told on Friday by our council BDUK contact that a Specialist OpenReach engineer had visited our estate specifically looking at cabinet (SMBF 49T). The outcome of this was that:

• There is copper available - as opposed to 'just Tpon'
• The copper available is from SMBF 44T and that 49T is Secondary Cross-Connection Point (SCP)
• This confused me as I have been told the Cabinet 49T is the 'spine' cabinet
• This means that it could be possible to use the FTTC cabinet that was erected over 2 years ago, that's just recently had it's first 2 yearly battery change - even though it's not in use

Now the thing to note is that 44T has/is being upgrade to FTTH, under BDUK phase 1, because it was supposedly a TPON only cabinet and didn't have any copper connection to the exchange, which it turns out is incorrect.

So my question are:

• How is this going to affect the BDUK funding that has been given for FTTH when infact they could have done it using FTTC? From what I understand FTTH is 3-5 time more expensive than FTTC
• Given that there is copper available would the FTTC cabinet that was erected 2 years ago be completed under what was at the time the OpenReach NGA program or would we still require BDUK funding?

Thanks
Satpal

NOTE: FTTH is only more expensive to roll-out cost to the consumer is the same, i.e. BT/council make a choice as to which areas it provides the best value for, usually cabinets where a large chunk would not have got superfast speeds anyway.

As for the cost, it all depends on what has been billed, if a FTTC has been stood and unused for two years that would have been at Openreach cost, since they can only bill once a cabinet goes live.

Thanks for the quick reply.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

NOTE: FTTH is only more expensive to roll-out cost to the consumer is the same, i.e. BT/council make a choice as to which areas it provides the best value for, usually cabinets where a large chunk would not have got superfast speeds anyway.

As for the cost, it all depends on what has been billed, if a FTTC has been stood and unused for two years that would have been at Openreach cost, since they can only bill once a cabinet goes live.

What i was getting at, would the council/BDUK be able claw back the difference between installing a FTTC and installing FTTH, given that OpenReach could have installed the former. Due to OpenReach not knowing what was on the ground.

Thanks
Satpal

Satpal

would the council/BDUK be able claw back the difference between installing a FTTC and installing FTTH

There's probably nothing to claw back. BT only gets paid by invoicing the council/BDUK for completed work rather than being paid in advance. Any saving over first estimates remains with the council/BDUK and would be used to fund other work.

In reply to a post by MCM:

would the council/BDUK be able claw back the difference between installing a FTTC and installing FTTH

There's probably nothing to claw back. BT only gets paid by invoicing the council/BDUK for completed work rather than being paid in advance. Any saving over first estimates remains with the council/BDUK and would be used to fund other work.

Thanks for the info on this, I didn't realize that the council paid after the work was done. In this particular case I'm not sure that there will be any saving as OpenReach are installing FTTH when they could have installed FTTC.

Don't forget that the council will be having an ongoing discussion with BT over all issues, and that there remains room for negotiation.

If it turns out that this area could have been done in a cheaper way, the council might negotiate a lower level of payment, limiting the subsidy to the amount that would have been invoiced had it been FTTC. Or they might negotiate that BT includes a couple of different cabinets in their commercial rollout.

Here, the BDUK project was running a small amount late. Rather than formally go through penalties, the project negotiated that BT should include some cabinets in their commercial project, where those cabinets were at risk because of excess power charges.

Thanks muchly.

I note that the CAB in the next street (smbf 44t) has gone live with FTTH

Cheers
satpal