ISP saying that *only* Openreach mode/router allowed?

One of my customers has an FTTC upgrade order due to go live on Monday - the ISP has provided an unsuitable "Technicolor TG589" router.

I have asked the customer to return it to the ISP for refund as I'll be providing a Billion product that is suitable for their IT policy.

The ISP have replied stating this:

"I�m afraid you have to have a BT Openreach approved piece of equipment directly after the phone socket"

This is b*ll*cks right?

Which ISP? Some state they only support specific devices, some state they only allow specific devices and some don't care.

I believe it's Zen - their own terms and conditions (section 10 here - https://www.zen.co.uk/policies/fibre-broadband-speci... ) seem to be at odds with what my customer has received.

Edited by deleted (Wed 21-Oct-15 15:00:42)

Pretty sure Zen are fine with you using your own router.

As long as the router is a UK spec with a VDSL modem then it shouldn't be an issue. On BT I use a Billion 8800AXL which works just fine.

What they might not get is a refund on the router though as I suspect it was free as per the packages on the Zen site.

Have you seen the actual response that was sent? Would be interesting to see exact wording of the original query and the response.

As below (this is to my customer from a zeninternet.co.uk address):


Hi ****,

I�m afraid you have to have a BT Openreach approved piece of equipment directly after the phone socket. Your IT company can put our router in �Bridge Mode� and then add your router after it.

This is an Openreach rule I�m afraid.

Thanks
****

I would say that is rubbish. Openreach don't have that as a rule. I am very surprised that Zen are saying that - the Zen forum here certainly has posts from users using other routers - it may just be that the person answering gave bad advice.

Cheers, I thought as much - we've been using Billion (and other brands) to bridge to Watchguard, Juniper etc appliances for years and never had an ISP come out with this statement!

This might be helpful:

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super...

No it is not b*ll*cks, Zen are trying to stick to the TOS set down by BT.

It is a requirement that the router/modem plugged in to the socket is on the BT approved list.

When it comes down to faults and line testing BT can throw a wobbly if the kit is not approved , ISP's need to show that stats come from approved kit.

Obviously many people ignore this but the TOS are there for a reason.

Your customer should keep the router as a spare and for testing purposes when they het line faults.

Thanks for the input! I have, in this case recommended they keep the provided Technicolor device for "testing purposes".

Having a spare device that is configured and known to work to some extent at least is ideal for backup too

In reply to a post by AdrianPH:

No it is not b*ll*cks, Zen are trying to stick to the TOS set down by BT.

It is a requirement that the router/modem plugged in to the socket is on the BT approved list.

When it comes down to faults and line testing BT can throw a wobbly if the kit is not approved , ISP's need to show that stats come from approved kit.

Obviously many people ignore this but the TOS are there for a reason.

Your customer should keep the router as a spare and for testing purposes when they het line faults.

On FTTC it matters not, to BT ect which brand of router is plugged into the BT modem, this modem testing /approval is non sense now we have self install, and BT are going to stop supplying FTTC modems in the near future ,
Not only this but i find it very difficult to except that ISP supplied modems or AIO boxes have been tested / approved by BT , most if not all 3rd party modems support things like G, vector and G.inp unlike some of the BT supplied and allegedly tested kit

As for remote line testing ,lol very reliable they are ,not

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 21-Oct-15 13:20:18)

In reply to a post by MilesPortent:

I believe it's Zen - their own terms and conditions (section 10 here - https://www.zen.co.uk/policies/fibre-broadband-speci... seem to be at odds with what my customer has received.

404 - File or directory not found. ?

The ISP would not be able to 'Remote Access' the Modem/router !.

In reply to a post by APTMAN:

In reply to a post by MilesPortent:

I believe it's Zen - their own terms and conditions (section 10 here - https://www.zen.co.uk/policies/fibre-broadband-speci... seem to be at odds with what my customer has received.

404 - File or directory not found. ?

Try this...

Fibre Broadband - Specific Terms and Conditions

Paul

By coincidence, we have a customer migrating a line from Zen ADSL2+ to Zen FTTC on Monday of next week.

Zen's sales rep said that, unless they opted for a managed install, then they had to buy a TG589v3 from Zen, but also said that they didn't have to actually use it.

He was quite clear that their kit must be retained by the end user, as they would only log a broadband fault with it connected.

I have to agree that the TG589v3 is a P.I.T.A. to re-configure away from the default, and not a suitable alternative to the Draytek V2860 they're already using, but then again Zen only charged them about fiver for the thing.

In reply to a post by MilesPortent:

This is b*ll*cks right?

Wrong. (Though hundreds of people ignore the fact).

See Openreach SIN 498, Section 2.4, Section 3 and Appendix A.

The CP provided modem and filtering devices must meet the requirements of this specification in order to provide reliable operation and to avoid harm to other VDSL2 lines sharing the same cable binder. Openreach reserves the right to withhold or limit service where potential violation of the Access Network Frequency Plan (ANFP)[9] or impact to another customers� service is detected.
The detailed technical requirements for CP provided modems are defined in Section 3 of this document and the related test descriptions required to demonstrate compliance to these requirements are defined in Annex A.

TalkTalk provided me with their "superrouter" which has a VDSL modem built in and the upgrade to fibre was a self install with no home visit by Openreach (or other party).

I have since replaced the TT Router with a Billion 8800NL.

I see no reason in sending the Openreach Modem back other than for backup and troubleshooting purposes. Worst case scenario you'll have to put the Openreach Modem back when you have fault to troubleshoot and escalate further.

In reply to a post by APTMAN:

The ISP would not be able to 'Remote Access' the Modem/router !.

Would you really want or need the ISP to have remote access to your router and lan network? not something that i need or want , they generally only use TR-069 to pre configure with the log on credentials , or to push out firmware, they don't have access to the modem if a separate device such as the BT HG612 or ECI's
or any 3rd party devices unless you allow it

In reply to a post by bit_bucket:

By coincidence, we have a customer migrating a line from Zen ADSL2+ to Zen FTTC on Monday of next week.

Zen's sales rep said that, unless they opted for a managed install, then they had to buy a TG589v3 from Zen, but also said that they didn't have to actually use it.

He was quite clear that their kit must be retained by the end user, as they would only log a broadband fault with it connected.

I have to agree that the TG589v3 is a P.I.T.A. to re-configure away from the default, and not a suitable alternative to the Draytek V2860 they're already using, but then again Zen only charged them about fiver for the thing.

that wouldn't apply to those who migrated their existing FTTC service to them as you would already have a bt modem and compatible router ,or an AIO device ie HH5 A/B or 3rd party AIO device, techicolour modem /routers provided by SP's Yuk

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 21-Oct-15 16:29:54)

So the device Zen provide has to be compatible but unless I am reading it wrong it does not state that the end user can't replace that with their own device? Also, I am hoping that devices like the Billion 8800 series would be ANFP compatible and therefore not against the BT requirement?

As I said earlier, many people ignore the specified requirements. that's their problem if Openreach implement something it can't handle .

It's clear from the SIN they expect self-install always to be with ISP-provided modem(/router), and that only compliant kit should be fitted whether ISP-supplied or not. "Openreach reserves the right to remove or limit service" if end user kit causes problems on the network. That seems perfectly reasonable, and is fully in line with what the OP was told by Zen. (As opposed to the more draconian Subject).

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 21-Oct-15 17:37:00)

Migrated a working FTTC circuit to Zen Business Fibre about 2 months ago.
Even though there was an already functioning ECI modem (B-FOCus V-2FUb/r Rev B) blinking at me, Zen insisted on sending their "free" Technicolor TG589n, despite me telling them it wasn't wanted.

https://forum.zen.co.uk/forums/permalink/47254/49000...

The "requirement " applies to the supplying ISP and its customers , using non BT approved kit breaks the TOS .........

Few take any notice but for faults on a BT line having a BT VDSL modem handy is a good idea.

I might be missing something.

But the ANFP is something which is negotiated by the cabinet, so it should always be able to be sure which tones are in use at all times to match the ANFP. I guess the output power of the modem might be the potential problem, but that can be managed I think as long as the modem reports the correct line attenuations.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/12/2015-up...

Read the comments section.


http://www.sinet.bt.com/sinet/SINs/pdf/498v6p0.pdf

In reply to a post by AdrianPH:

https://forum.zen.co.uk/forums/permalink/47254/49000...

The "requirement " applies to the supplying ISP and its customers , using non BT approved kit breaks the TOS .........

Few take any notice but for faults on a BT line having a BT VDSL modem handy is a good idea.

Well that will fall by the wayside next year or the year afterwards,once BT stop swapping out faulty modems and even stop providing modems with standard engineer installs, as not every ISP sells or supply's hardware

In reply to a post by bit_bucket:

Migrated a working FTTC circuit to Zen Business Fibre about 2 months ago.
Even though there was an already functioning ECI modem (B-FOCus V-2FUb/r Rev B) blinking at me, Zen insisted on sending their "free" Technicolor TG589n, despite me telling them it wasn't wanted.

Well i migrated to zen ,told them i already had a BTOR modem and own compatible router, they where happy with that, which was good as they aren't heavy enough to use as a doorstop ,and i be grudge throwing money in landfill

Well I totally didn't expect this many replies and it's provided quite interesting reading, thanks to all the contributors!

Where possible, I actually prefer using an Openreach modem for PPPoE connections from hardware firewall appliances, however there are a few situations where this is unsuitable.
The reason why I'll be putting a Billion BiPAC 8800NL (in PPPoA mode) in on Monday is that a DMZ is required in front of the firewall - something that cannot be achieved properly with PPPoE/bridging.

GEA-VDSL2 does not carry ATM. It's PTM. No PPPoA.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 21-Oct-15 22:25:25)

There is one business ISP, the name escapes me at the moment, that supplies Billion 8800NL to it's customers.