55/10 Mbps FTTC

In December 2015 there were reports of a BT Openreach announcement of a "middle tier" FTTC service offering 55/10 Mbps. The service was supposed to be available to ISPs from early this year. Unless I have missed it there doesn't seem to be an ISP offering a 55/10 tariff. Since BT is all about profits my assumption is that Openreach would never have offered 55/10 Mbps unless it had clear indications that ISPs wanted to buy it from them and offer it as a retail product. Does anyone know what's going on or has 55/10 sunk without trace?

Will know who it is in a few hours

Not gonna to happen! 40/10 to 55/10 is rather daft idea by openreach. If it was 60/10 then I think many isps will go for this.

Spotted this earlier..

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=821274...

Edited by Davey_H (Thu 14-Apr-16 19:21:49)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Not gonna to happen! 40/10 to 55/10 is rather daft idea by openreach. If it was 60/10 then I think many isps will go for this.

Not daft if it was at the request of an ISP.

I always suspected it would be BT Retail so they didn't have to mess about when Infinity 1 customers want BT Sport in UHD.

a. Faster connections � BT will have the fastest standard fibre speeds in the country at 52mb

What an utter con!

BT Broadband will be making some portfolio changes as from tomorrow:

a. Faster connections � BT will have the fastest standard fibre speeds in the country at 52mb
b. Better connected through their extensive 5million Wi-Fi hotspots
c. Safer as standard � with BT Protect or BT Protect plus, parental controls and cloud storage to keep your photos and files safe (note some of the increases in cloud storage too!)
d. Reliable � through both their most reliable connection via the BT home hub

Pity the HH5A doesn't do G.INP

Why is it a con?

We know it refers to the maximum of the product, and all current offers end at midnight tonight.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7397-bt-infinity-...

It's on offer at the BT web site today !

I also noted on the BT website, Infinity 3 and 4 have had a price reduction to £25 and £30 respectively. I'll assume it's a typo for now...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Why is it a con?

Perhaps con is too strong a word, but it implies that BT Infinity will be getting faster, which is not the case. Nobody's potential speed will increase, the only people that will benefit are new Infinity customers who don't want to pay for 80/20 and existing Infinity 1 customers syncing at the maximum speed who want to take out a new contract to get a bit more. The main beneficiary is BT, who will be able to report higher average speeds without actually doing anything to improve their network!

Edited by kasg (Fri 15-Apr-16 09:03:15)

In reply to a post by kasg:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Why is it a con?

Perhaps con is too strong a word, but it implies that BT Infinity will be getting faster, which is not the case. Nobody's potential speed will increase

Remember Openreach are also rolling out a 3dB target SRNM

Post deleted by lee111s

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Remember Openreach are also rolling out a 3dB target SRNM

I'd missed that, I'll have to read up on it.

It implies nothing other than it's now up to 52meg instead of up to 38.

I believe the average predicted speed is around 55meg which is why Openreach chose the 55/10. Additionally, it will allow BT to provision UHD to infinity 1 customers without using the network trickery they currently do when a customer is on 40meg sync which is below the required 44meg.

I think 60/15 would have made more logical sense. I may have even opted to go for that, primarily for the slightly faster upload. But really, 55/10 doesn't gain me anything that I feel is of any value.

Will TalkTalk or Plusnet be changing there 40/2 packages to replace it with 55/10? I would like a higher upload without having to pay more. Also I assume like ADSL the 3db SNRM will allow for higher download speeds on VDSL2? I've noticed its the other way round with VDSL2 the lower SNRM on ADSL the faster but the higher the SNRM the potential to sync higher.

The fact they went down to 40/2 when 40/10 was available suggests they probably won't change to the new 55/10 package - but it's anyone's guess.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Remember Openreach are also rolling out a 3dB target SRNM

That's for ADSL2+ not for FTTC as VDSL2 the higher SRNM will get higher attainable rate.

Incorrect. A 3db margin would lead to a higher sync rate, just as it would on other xDSL products.

What you're confused by is those on a 40/10 or 80/20 service that have a max attainable considerably higher than their capped rate, will have an higher SNR margin due to the fact the line is "capped" no where near its maximum potential.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Incorrect. A 3db margin would lead to a higher sync rate, just as it would on other xDSL products.

Only on ADSL2/ADSL2+ but not on FTTC.

Why would a lower margin not lead to an increase in sync? If the line isn't in cap then a lower margin should correlate to a higher sync.

I can see my parents FTTC line stats as following:

Attainable Rate (Kbps) 41587 19200
Rate (Kbps) 42766 18767
SNR 6.1 6.2

________________________________________

Attainable Rate (Kbps) 54233 19766
Rate (Kbps) 55923 19133
SNR 7.2 6.7

Riddle me this.

Why when a customer is NOT on their max product sync speed (40meg or 80meg downstream) due to a fault or external interference, would an SNR of 9db give a LOWER speed than when the SNR of the same line is 6db?

Why would reducing the SNR to 3db not result in a speed increase.

If you have some documentation that shows VDSL2 reacts the opposite to other xDSL technologies with regards to SNR margins, then I'd be very interested to read it.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I can see my parents FTTC line stats as following:

Attainable Rate (Kbps) 41587 19200
Rate (Kbps) 42766 18767
SNR 6.1 6.2

________________________________________

Attainable Rate (Kbps) 54233 19766
Rate (Kbps) 55923 19133
SNR 7.2 6.7

There are other factors aside from the SNR margin that affect the sync speed.

I'd like to see the documentation that shows an INCREASE in SNR margin leads to a higher sync rate. Not one example with no back up evidence. Actual documentation that explains this in detail and why it is so.

Edited by deleted (Fri 15-Apr-16 10:12:15)

By the way Openreach will not allow SNR 3dB on FTTC as there is no option for this from any isp's.

Only on ADSL2/ADSL2+ can get SNR target 3dB via BT Wholesale

In reply to a post by adslmax:

By the way Openreach will not allow SNR 3dB on FTTC as there is no option for this from any isp's.

Only on ADSL2/ADSL2+ can get SNR target 3dB via BT Wholesale

Openreach are currently trialling a 3db noise margin. Pleas ensure you know what you're talking about before spouting.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

There are other factors aside from the SNR margin that affect the sync speed.

I'd like to see the documentation that shows an INCREASE in SNR margin leads to a higher sync rate. Not one example with no back up evidence. Actual documentation that explains this in detail and why it is so.

Here is my FTTC line stats but I don't know if my downstream SNR of 13.7dB are good or bad?

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 13.7 16.0
Attenuation (dB) 11.1 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.5 -0.9
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 106691 36183
Rate (Kbps) 79999 19999

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Openreach are currently trialling a 3db noise margin. Pleas ensure you know what you're talking about before spouting.

Where did u get this information from? I cannot find it.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by lee111s:

There are other factors aside from the SNR margin that affect the sync speed.

I'd like to see the documentation that shows an INCREASE in SNR margin leads to a higher sync rate. Not one example with no back up evidence. Actual documentation that explains this in detail and why it is so.

Here is my FTTC line stats but I don't know if my downstream SNR of 13.7dB are good or bad?

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 13.7 16.0
Attenuation (dB) 11.1 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.5 -0.9
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 106691 36183
Rate (Kbps) 79999 19999

As I explained above, it's because you're no where near your max attainable speed. There's still an extra potential 26meg available on your line should the cap be removed.

Because of that, your line has plenty of capability to be able to afford a higher noise margin to provide more protection to your line. As your line is capped at 80meg, there would be no point in DLM "risking" having your noise margin at 6db, there would be nothing to gain, only the potential to lose sync should a noise event occur.

I do remember Openreach engineer told me when he installed my first ever FTTC last February 2014 and say to me your FTTC max speed is 80Meg as you will never drop below that because your cabinet is only 200metre away from you.

You are incorrect. If you reduce the target SRNM, then that increases the potential bandwidth. That applies to all xDSL products. Indeed, it applies to any comparable modulation system. The target SRNM just provides the extra margin over the required SNR required to meet the target bit error rate (BER) for a given speed. Decrease the target margin and you increase the maximum speed. No arguments.

The downside is that a low SNRM can lead to an unstable line which is why, on some lines, the target SNRM has to be raised to 9db or even 12db thereby damaging the maximum achievable rate. Note that if the data rate is considerably below the maximum achievable rate the SNRM can, indeed, be higher than the target.

Edited by deleted (Fri 15-Apr-16 11:57:04)

In those circumstances, with a sync rate capped at 80mbps the target SNRM doesn't even come into play. The line will simply sync at either the capped rate or the highest it can reach without dropping below the margin, so DLM hasn't got a risk to take. Well, that's not quite true. Theoretically it could lower the transmission power, but I doubt that OR do that although it might (in principle) reduce the x-talk for other lines where they to do so.

Don't you just love BT, the customer's friend.
Currently I have Unlimited BT Infinity1 for £16-90 per month.6 months left on contract.I consistently get 36 Mbps.
On the BT website I am told I can upgrade to the 55Mbps service at £25 per month if I extend my contract. The estimated download speed is 43 - 56 Mbps. Here's the rub the guaranteed download speed is 35Mbps which is less than I get now.
Unless I misunderstand the situation I can spend more, for longer with my only guarantee being the speed I get now.
We may use BT out of necessity but are they really surprised that some of us loathe them.

In reply to a post by codsallandy:

Don't you just love BT, the customer's friend.
Currently I have Unlimited BT Infinity1 for £16-90 per month.6 months left on contract.I consistently get 36 Mbps.
On the BT website I am told I can upgrade to the 55Mbps service at £25 per month if I extend my contract. The estimated download speed is 43 - 56 Mbps. Here's the rub the guaranteed download speed is 35Mbps which is less than I get now.
Unless I misunderstand the situation I can spend more, for longer with my only guarantee being the speed I get now.
We may use BT out of necessity but are they really surprised that some of us loathe them.

It'll only be of benefit if your max attainable rate is greater than 40meg. Even then, if it was say 48meg, you'd need to make that decision as to whether it was worth it or not. What is the guaranteed download speed on the contract you're on at the moment? Probably around 28-30meg I'd imagine?

I don't understand why people think BT should be a charity and just give stuff a way for free. If you bought a BMW tomorrow that came with 140bhp, and next month, they released the same model with a tweaked engine that produced 150bhp, would you expect them to upgrade you for free? Probably not.

In the same vein, you were happy to pay the price for the service you were offered at the time you took out that service. Now a new service comes out you just want it for free? Life doesn't work that way.

Why use them out of a necessity. There are many other ISP's that you can use for FTTC connectivity. If you don't like BT, move supplier.

Thank you for your helpful advice. I was completely unaware that there are other FTTC providers and apparently I can I can move to one of them. I didn't know that.
My point was that whilst 36Mbps for £16-90 suits me at present BT's attitude to existing customers breeds no customer loyalty at all. Perhaps there are other forum users who feel that way too.

Its a new product and because a small 3-5% must have the latest shiny gadget things arrive at a premium price.

Once the offers kick back in you may be able to barter a better deal, customer retention is a barter game.

In reply to a post by codsallandy:

Thank you for your helpful advice. I was completely unaware that there are other FTTC providers and apparently I can I can move to one of them. I didn't know that.
My point was that whilst 36Mbps for £16-90 suits me at present BT's attitude to existing customers breeds no customer loyalty at all. Perhaps there are other forum users who feel that way too.

As far as I know BT are allowing existing customers access to the new speeds, all they need to do is re-contract. That's no different to new customers really, you're just agreeing that you'll pay for a service for a set amount of time.

With regards to loyalty, it's the same across the board I'm afraid. Almost all ISP's "reward" new customers with better offers. You no doubt got one when you became a BT customer.

Much like the insurance and mortgage markets, it really doesn't benefit you to remain brand loyal.

TalkTalk I believe has negotiated to use a lower level of support from Openreach if memory working correctly, to reduce price, so doubt they will suddenly upgrade entry level service two product price points.

SNRM behaves the same way, the physics are the same just people are getting confused by the way the DLM system can skew things with VDSL2.

In reply to a post by codsallandy:

Thank you for your helpful advice. I was completely unaware that there are other FTTC providers and apparently I can I can move to one of them. I didn't know that.

That's because like several hundred thousand others you will have fallen for the misleading "Infinity - only from BT". Infinity is just the name of BT's FTTC product, so of course it's only from them. Just like you can only get a Mondeo from Ford but there are plenty of competing cars.

Sky and TalkTalk are reluctant to promote 80/20 and they don't offer the even faster FTTP products.

BT Retail have obviously noticed this and now their standard product is faster than their competitors.

Oh look. BT website is now headlining

"We�ve upgraded BT Infinity 1 to speeds of up to 52Mb � that's up to 14Mb faster than before and quicker than both Sky and TalkTalk."


"Faster

Now with BT Infinity 1, get up to 52Mb � the fastest fibre speeds as standard. Do more online in a fraction of the time."

https://www.productsandservices.bt.com/products/infi...

Looks like it is Sky and TalkTalk's move.

Edited by deleted (Sat 16-Apr-16 22:23:44)

In reply to a post by partial:

Looks like it is Sky and TalkTalk's move.

Sky are offering 40/10 free for a year.

In reply to a post by kasg:

Nobody's potential speed will increase, the only people that will benefit are new Infinity customers who don't want to pay for 80/20 and existing Infinity 1 customers syncing at the maximum speed who want to take out a new contract to get a bit more.

Yes, the people who will benefit are those whose lines are capable of a bit more than 40mb/sec but not enough more to justify the extra cost of an 80mb/sec subscription.

I'd guess that this will be quite a large proportion of FTTC lines.

It's not often BT does something good so it's hardly fair to knock them when they do!

Only the 25GB usage allowance version and as people are want to remind me in news comments, still have to pay the voice line rental

Sky and TalkTalk don't offer Openreach FTTP full stop not even the up to 38 Mbps version

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Only the 25GB usage allowance version and as people are want to remind me in news comments, still have to pay the voice line rental

Sky fibre unlimited is only £10 per month.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

It's not often BT does something good so it's hardly fair to knock them when they do!

If they were just upgrading existing Infinity 1 customers I would agree that BT are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, but customers have to take out a new contract to benefit.

Edited by kasg (Sun 17-Apr-16 17:06:51)

Interestingly, I went through the order journey at the Sky website and they advised they could not offer me anything more than 5meg adsl with no discount.

So I presume these deals are only in Sky LLU areas.

Anyone know if Sky offer FTTC in none LLU areas as in my village they are not offering anything other than adsl?

Doubt it

In reply to a post by partial:

Interestingly, I went through the order journey at the Sky website and they advised they could not offer me anything more than 5meg adsl with no discount.

Then at peak times you can lower that by 80% or more to get throughput on their non-LLU.

Anyone know if Sky offer FTTC in none LLU areas as in my village they are not offering anything other than adsl?

I believe they do, if the village is supplied FTTC from a different exchange and Sky have that other exchange LLU'ed.

sky FTTC is LLU area only.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by partial:

Interestingly, I went through the order journey at the Sky website and they advised they could not offer me anything more than 5meg adsl with no discount.

Then at peak times you can lower that by 80% or more to get throughput on their non-LLU.

Anyone know if Sky offer FTTC in none LLU areas as in my village they are not offering anything other than adsl?

I believe they do, if the village is supplied FTTC from a different exchange and Sky have that other exchange LLU'ed.

I can confirm that Sky do offer FTTC if the exchange is fed from another exchange that is LLU'd. The exchange in the village where my parents live is fed from the Rye exchange and Sky can offer FTTC but not ADSL2+.

Thanks.

Yes. it is curious.

Monster telco, Sky offer my village that has FTTC availability on all cabinets, ADSL only at high, none discounted prices.

In the neighbouring village which has FTTP only on 3 cabinets, monster telco, Sky, offers ADSL2+ only in those FTTP areas. Forcing Openreach to keep maintaining the copper.

BT Retail offers FTTP where available and standard FTTC at faster speeds than any other provider.

And Sky has the cheek to run to the government and the regulator saying Openreach is holding faster speeds back

Edited by deleted (Mon 18-Apr-16 21:36:13)

I think even if sky didnt offer services in those areas, the copper has to be maintained anyway "just in case" a competitor wants to sell in that area.

ofcom could be handling things so much better but sadly they remain largely inept.

More to the point, a large number of people still don't have or want broadband. But a phone line is an essential.

I note in My BT it now says this for my service:

"Unlimited Broadband with BT Infinity 1

Your current plan includes:

Unlimited usage

Unlimited usage
Up to 52Mb download speed. Up to 9.5Mb upload speed."

I've not contacted BT at all. And i'm not seeing that speed at the time of posting.

That suggests a re-boot of your modem during daylight hours might be interesting. Nothing can change while you maintain connection.

Interesting, my "My BT" also shows the 52MB reference, though it's possibile it's just an incorrect label....!

That being said I'm on a 35 Mbps connection and 40 Mbps is about the fastest I'd ever get so it's somewhat academic! TBH I'd prefer faster upload more (backup etc!)

Ah yes, I was tired. It does rather depend on the potential of his line.

Shows 52Mbps on my account too and I haven't contracted BT either. Haven't rebooted modem yet to see if I've got the free uplift though according to articles you need to re-contract. Strange.

I've been on a fixed FTTC sync speed of 54999 kbps down and 10000 kbps up the past week. Rebooting and turning off the router for a while makes no difference and it's fixed at 55/10 now. I was getting a stable 60-63Mb down and 17Mb up before for the past 5 months.

TalkTalk fobbed me off and said they detected no errors on the line and it's within the speeds that my line was said to support. So I'll have to make do now I suppose...

Potential of my line is anything, i'm on FTTP
Edit just to say:
Restart didn't make any difference

Edited by deleted (Tue 19-Apr-16 12:50:55)

A phone maybe but not phone line, traditional voice copper services are dieing rapidly only been skewed up by people having a line just for broadband. Also for wired voice services it can work over fibre. But yes there is still a USO for phone lines, so that alone forces BT to keep copper everywhere.