sync & congestion: 'Tier 2' ISP vs BT/BT wholesale on Mkt. A

Hi everyone, first post here and it's a few questions:

While exploring the options to migrate from BT fibre I've been confused a bit by some of the options that are available. I thought being on a market A exchange meant that we were limited to BT wholesale products only, but it seems that Sky, Vodafone and a few others I didn't expect are available.

Also, although the Openreach estimate says the maximum sync speed would be around 63-64Mbps, one of the ISPs (Cloudscape) said we should be able to get 72Mbps and they would endeavour to fix anything below that. If they aren't able to supply the promised speed we would be able to leave without penalty. So what can the smaller ISP do that BT/Openreach can't to maximise the sync speed?

Cloudscape also mentioned being "Tier 2" with their own network and using backhaul with BT, Vodafone and "a couple of others" so there is no contention, traffic shaping or peak time slow down. Does this mean they are like Sky and Vodafone, only smaller and less well known? Sky and Vodafone also aren't on our exchange with their own LLU hardware but are offering fibre to our line/postcode.

Why is using 'backhaul' with other networks different than being a reseller like the Plusnet white label I see mentioned from time to time? and can I trust that we wouldn't end being ultimately at the mercy of another network(s) traffic management or peak time congestion on my local exchange?

Market A and B are largely irrelevant when talking about the VDSL2 product ranges.

Some providers do promise a lot, but there is no requirement on Openreach to do work that will uplift a speed of say 63 Mbps to 72 Mbps. In many cases a bit of help over in home wiring will get people to hit the estimated speeds.

I doubt Cloudscape has the 10 Gbps and larger back haul networks or Sky, TalkTalk and others.

With VDSL2 the bit that is important is where does the fibre goto, which is usually a larger exchange in the area, and thus has the cheaper backhaul options.

If Cloudscape is promising more than the highest A range figure that Openreach suggest, then sounds like a sales pitch rather than anything concrete.

Thank you.

I'm not trying to make anyone look bad here or arbitrarily rule out going with the smaller ISP. They are cheaper than BT/Plusnet/Sky (no deals available for us currently) but Cloudscape would be around £10/month more than some of the other cheaper deals we can find.

While the sync speed claim sounded a bit too good to be true I thought I would ask here anyway just because they promised in email that if the speed isn't achieved in a "reasonable time" it would be possible to leave without penalty.

I'll probably make a thread in the ISP discussion forum later, but if Cloudscape is a no go then it might well have to be a case of signing up to an 18 month deal somewhere.

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Oct-16 16:31:53)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I doubt Cloudscape has the 10 Gbps and larger back haul networks or Sky, TalkTalk and others.

Uno is another small ISP and they are seemingly building a quite good reputation here, so how do they differ? are they ultimately a reseller? I know they have something based on TalkTalk Business, but they can supply my address which TalkTalk Business won't do, so I assume uno must also come via BT/openreach.

If the size matters how do Uno end up being good recommendation?

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Oct-16 16:47:27)

In reply to a post by Berk:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I doubt Cloudscape has the 10 Gbps and larger back haul networks or Sky, TalkTalk and others.

Uno is another small ISP and they are seemingly building a quite good reputation here, so how do they differ? are they ultimately a reseller? I know they have something based on TalkTalk Business, but they can supply my address which TalkTalk Business won't do, so I assume uno must also come via BT/openreach.

If the size matters how do Uno end up being good recommendation?

Which services are Uno offering you?

Their Fibre/Fibre+ packages are WBC FTTC services and use BT Wholesale backhaul, these have an on-peak usage limit of either 100, 200 or 500GB a month.

Fibre Pro and Fibre+ Pro packages use TalkTalk's backhaul and have unmetered usage.

In reply to a post by Berk:

If the size matters how do Uno end up being good recommendation?

Generally they tend to contract enough bandwidth from the underlying supplier to provide a good throughput at all times. Not all smaller ISPs do that, and these days even BT Consumer itself and TalkTalk Retail can suffer considerable congestion at peak times.

Nearly all users have a problem at some time or other. The Customer Service from uno (and its predecessor xilo - that being in effect a simple name change of the broadband supply part of their business, not a takeover or going bust) gets huge accolades from all that have cause to use it. One or two complaints on here per year, if that.

In reply to a post by Toonshorty:

Which services are Uno offering you?

when I check the website with my line it tells me that all of the fibre products on this page are available inc. the unmetered: https://www.uno.net.uk/packages/fibre-broadband/

however the 'Talk Surf' and 'Talk Surf fibre' are not available: https://www.uno.net.uk/packages/phone-and-broadband/

Would Uno just be using BTW between my street cabinet the nearest TTB exchange?

Edited by deleted (Wed 19-Oct-16 17:52:22)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

...even BT Consumer itself and TalkTalk Retail can suffer considerable congestion at peak times.

That to me is the primary issue that kills the super cheap deals that the like of SSE offer. The line speed and quality we have with BT is OK, there are sometimes hiccups but not enough that I need to start complaining. The problem with BT is now out of contract the price has gone up to over £60/month inc. calls.

I don't think we will go to Uno because of their price beyond the basic 100GB capped fibre. I just wanted to get better understanding of why they are a good small ISP, but I guess the extra subscription cost would also pay for more bandwidth where they need to contract for it.

Have you considered sky seriously? I doubt you need anything faster than 40Mbps.

I have had both speeds and can't see any difference day to day between the two.

Also have you spoke to BT retentions?

In reply to a post by Berk:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

...even BT Consumer itself and TalkTalk Retail can suffer considerable congestion at peak times.

I don't think we will go to Uno because of their price beyond the basic 100GB capped fibre. I just wanted to get better understanding of why they are a good small ISP, but I guess the extra subscription cost would also pay for more bandwidth where they need to contract for it.

Something to think about with Uno , Monthly usage is metered within peak hours only which are Monday to Friday, 8am-8pm. All other times are off-peak. ( not charged)

I have the Fibre 80/20 500GB package and have never managed to use half by monthly allowance . We have 5 machines running all day, my son is on YouTube for ridiculous hours each day and downloads games every week.

In reply to a post by AdrianPH:

In reply to a post by Berk:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

...even BT Consumer itself and TalkTalk Retail can suffer considerable congestion at peak times.

I don't think we will go to Uno because of their price beyond the basic 100GB capped fibre. I just wanted to get better understanding of why they are a good small ISP, but I guess the extra subscription cost would also pay for more bandwidth where they need to contract for it.

Something to think about with Uno , Monthly usage is metered within peak hours only which are Monday to Friday, 8am-8pm. All other times are off-peak. ( not charged)

I have the Fibre 80/20 500GB package and have never managed to use half by monthly allowance . We have 5 machines running all day, my son is on YouTube for ridiculous hours each day and downloads games every week.

Can second this, my Brother and I are fairly hefty users and we get by with the 100GB package. I think upgrading to 200GB on-peak is only a pound or two a month more, which should be more than enough - especially if you work office hours.

Personally I'd rather have the on-peak usage restriction with a very reliable connection that has no peak-time bandwidth or latency issues, versus a slightly cheaper unlimited package that came to a grinding halt every evening.

The unmetered packages are a bit more expensive over the restricted ones, but not by a horrific amount.

Fibre 100GB (40/10) is £22.49 a month.
Fibre 200GB (40/10) is £25.49 a month.
Fibre 500GB (40/10) is £29.50 a month.
Fibre Pro (40/10) is £29.99 a month.

So the cost to step up to unlimited is either £7.50, £4.50 or £0.49 a month more, depending on what restricted plan you'd be looking at.

The gap is a little bit more if you opt for the faster 80/20 packages:

Fibre+ 100GB (80/20) is £23.49 a month.
Fibre+ 200GB (80/20) is £26.49 a month.
Fibre+ 500GB (80/20) is £29.99 a month.
Fibre+ Pro (80/20) is £34.99 a month.

In this case, the upgrade to unlimited would be either £11.50, £8.50 or £5.00 more a month.

I'm not entirely sure why the Fibre+ Pro package is so much more, as the difference between the two speed brackets on the WBC packages is only £1 a month, yet on the TTW ones it's £5. I imagine this will just be down to how TTW price their wholesale access.

The only other main consideration to make is line rental, most ISPs force you to take line rental with them - and sure enough they seem to be charging silly amounts of money (e.g. £19 a month) for it. Uno will do line rental for £10 a month (or £100 a year) if you have broadband with them (prices quoted exclude VAT).

Most big ISPs quoting cheap headline prices can usually only do so by offering long contracts (18 months+) and offloading the cost of the service onto line rental.

Edited by Toonshorty (Wed 19-Oct-16 19:01:22)

At £22 per month including line rental for mobile phone customers, Vodafone are very competitively priced. 18 month contract. A sales rep told me I could leave in the first month if I wanted to, though I can't find anything in the T&Cs to confirm that.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

At £22 per month including line rental for mobile phone customers, Vodafone are very competitively priced. 18 month contract. A sales rep told me I could leave in the first month if I wanted to, though I can't find anything in the T&Cs to confirm that.

So are SSE for their gas and electric customers. Dosen't mean they are any good either.

In reply to a post by Berk:

Thank you.

I'm not trying to make anyone look bad here or arbitrarily rule out going with the smaller ISP. They are cheaper than BT/Plusnet/Sky (no deals available for us currently) but Cloudscape would be around £10/month more than some of the other cheaper deals we can find.

While the sync speed claim sounded a bit too good to be true I thought I would ask here anyway just because they promised in email that if the speed isn't achieved in a "reasonable time" it would be possible to leave without penalty.

I'll probably make a thread in the ISP discussion forum later, but if Cloudscape is a no go then it might well have to be a case of signing up to an 18 month deal somewhere.

Based on my personal experience Cloudscape are rock solid, I haven't experienced any traffic throttling of any kind yet, constant 80/20 sync and can stream 4K 60FPS video with ease. So I'd be inclined to believe them when they say they have excellent backhaul redundancy. These days when it comes to broadband package I'd pick a smaller independent over one of the big companies in a heartbeat.