Confused??? Our Nieghbour is elgible for fibre but we arent?

Good morning,

New poster here, any help is welcome. We have the situation where by the business i work at is needing an increase in internet speed to enable us to continue working forward and not stay in the dark ages. Our exchange Leintwardine has recently been upgraded to fibre with all 3 cabinets active and taking orders. we are served by cabinet 2 and according to all available checkers are not eligible for an FTTC connection. However all our neighbours are whether they are residential or business users??

All the properties immediately next to and opposite us are served from the same pavement box which is in our gateway. we are closer to the cabinet than my residential property is to my cabinet which is also served from the same exchange.

Any ideas as to why this is would be great or any channel in which we can speak directly with OR?

Thanks

Do you have an active phone line?

If so, who with?

Have you checked both the Openreach and Wholesale checkers? For the address?

Are all the others showing up as being on the same cabinet too

What is your postcode? And those of the neighbouring businesses and residential locations?

Our Postcode is the same as for the surrounding business' and properties, SY7 0NB.
All checkers show us and our neighbours as being sourced through Cab 2. We have 2 active phone lines into the property and neither can apparently support fibre for an unknown reason. I have asked if having a new line installed would allow us to get fibre but according to one guy at BT that wont. Whilst looking into phone providers one company guaranteed us 80mbs fibre if we had a new line installed but we have a long period left on our current contract so the buy out put the boss off.

Also i was told that the reason our line isn't registering for fibre is because our premises doesn't show on the broadband checker and apparently having internet from BT should help resolve this (luckily they were cheaper for ADSL than our current supplier anyway). How can our premises not show when we have been here for more than 20 years with active phone lines from the beginning.

yes we have 2 active phone lines with Daisy Telecom.

and what do you run over those lives call or VOIP

have you asked daisy around FTTC

depends on how your routed

In reply to a post by HangOn_Bryn:

Our Postcode is the same as for the surrounding business' and properties, SY7 0NB.

That postcode is a huge area, so, to be sure, we should check:
a) Those neighbours are immediate neighbours
b) Their predicted speeds are well above the minimum
c) And that some of those neighbours actually get a speed close to their predicted speed
d) There isn't an alternative route back to cab 2 for your cables

Do your cables go to the same pole as the neighbours?

It is certainly possible for the Openreach database to be wrong, such that it won't allow you to order. If that is the cause of your problem, then that is what needs to be fixed - which might be a better approach than installing a new line.

That, of course, really relies on your ISP support staff chasing this on your behalf. If that doesn't work, then you either need to use an ISP that will chase it, or get in touch with Openreach yourself.

To get in touch yourself, you might find this post useful:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4493231-re-...

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

To get in touch yourself, you might find this post useful:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4493231-re-...

They have also started to use another email address of [email protected]

But I would use one of the online forms, that way you get a VOL... ticket number assigned to your query.

Paul

How do you know you are served by cabinet 2?

When I check a large chunk of that postcode is exchange only ie the line never goes through a cabinet and just routes straight back to the exchange.

use the bt wholesale checker and use address checker

I know how to do it, but has the op done it?
They have stayed they are served by cabinet 2, I feel they may actually be exchange only.
Just because they can see cabinet 2 close to their home does not prove anything...

So the source of where they got cabinet 2 from is very relevant and I wait for the op to respond.

When I was using the checker, I found there was a large percentage of the postcode on another exchange entirely. I think the EO lines were connected there.

But there is an industrial estate in amongst the properties, where some units get reasonable estimates, and (I think) one doesn't get anything. Probably close enough that they ought to get service.

OT: Streetview also provides an odd sight nearby... a couple of horses parked in the filling station.

Thanks for all the above help i will try contacting openreach directly as both BT and Daisy have said that they cant order us fibre. I'll keep you updated on the outcome of contacting OR.

When I use our landline to check it states cab 2 from Leintwardine Exchange I have also had this confirmed by BT and our current Phone provider. If you check using [removed] you will see we are served by cab 2, also if you check [removed] you will see that they are served by cab 2 as well and are able to place an order for fibre. There is approx. 10 metres between our buildings on the same side of the road. The industrial estate mentioned is immediately opposite our premises.

The buildings on the Wigmore exchange that were mentioned are about a mile away from our property. That exchange is in the process of being upgraded at the moment. I don't think the distance between us and the cab is to blame as my residential property is twice as far and I get 33Mbs on my fibre (I live in the same village but my house is served from Cab 1, also I have checked the distances by road on my bike, I know this doesn't follow the lines but I cant ride the path they go as they cross the river by pole then go underground to the cab). So I assume that the distance of actual cable would be a bit shorter than the distance by road.

If checking by Postcode I believe we are known on the address list as New unit, this gives the same result as checking by phone number. If you check the coach yard ([removed]) who are immediately next door to us they are eligible.

I have now contacted OR by way of the online form and will wait to see what happens next.

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 22-Dec-16 21:47:35)

I have asked Daisy about Fibre and they gave the same response as BT we are not eligible. We just run calls over the phone lines via ISDN.

Thanks Wombat for the link.

IISDN2 or 30?

IIRC, if you are giving them the number to check, then not surprising they say it can't gave fibre. FTTC cannot run over ISDN. Ask about a new line at the address.

What line is the broadband on now?

ISDN 2 as far as im aware.

Then number that has been used to check is a phone line which we already receive ADSL down, the number is different to our ISDN lines. Can you explain please do ISDN lines use the existing phone line or are they carried on a completely separate line? Also as they are digital do they actually use the copper or again is there another line that they use?

Isdn2 uses copper, but numbers can be provided in different ways. E.g. one line can have 2 numbers on each channel, or 2 channels with the same number. There are other options as well including bonding lines to create larger ranges.
You cannot have any sort of broadband on the same line as isdn2 or 30.
Isdn 30 can be provided over copper, fibre or radio links, and usually connects to a digital pabx. It can carry multiple lines and can be configured in many ways to carry auxiliary lines and multiple numbers ranges.
You should try and find out exactly what kind of lines you have , as either way, you cannot have broadband on any isdn line. Needs to be a standard analogue phone line

Edited by witchunt (Thu 22-Dec-16 14:25:15)

In reply to a post by witchunt:

You cannot have any sort of broadband on the same line as isdn2 .

In the UK ... You can certainly have ADSL variants on ISDN2 circuits in other countries where ISDN2 was more widespread - Germany and Norway are two and I know that VDSL sercices are provided on ISDN circuits in Germany.

We only have 2 line into the business, one number has the alarm on which cannot have any other activity on it. The other number has our ADSL broadband on so I assume our ADSL broadband and ISDN are on the same line. We don't have any other phone lines into the business. I'll speak with our current Phone provider and also BT to see what they know, if anything, about how our ISDN is delivered to the premises.

Will update you in the new year.

Thanks all and have a great Christmas.

I would suggest you go back and edit out those landline numbers from your post whilst you still can.

BT so not provide broaband on ISDN lines , so I presume you must have a separate analogue line with ADSL running over it. Find what number that is and who the wholesaler is as daisy maybe using a non-BT network which maybe causing problems with availability checkers.

do you have a standard other line such as an alarm line -- I assume as what you are running is what is excluding you from ffibre -- try puttuing the alarm line through the checker

Are you sure it is ADSL, not a 64Kbps or 128Kbps "instant connect" ISDN internet connection?

Have done it for them

In reply to a post by HangOn_Bryn:

When I use our landline to check
...
[snip]

From what I remember checking the other day, I'd agree ... every indication is that you ought to be able to order an FTTC connection.

Although subsequent answers suggest that ISDN might be hampering the ordering process on an existing line, the presence of ISDN shouldn't have an impact on the address checker (for "New unit"). This should continue to show availability ... because that determines the ordering process for a new line.

When talking to Daisy, are your through to sales, or support? Have you tried escalating?

Someone like AAISP would be considerably more helpful at this point. I wonder if this will reach the point that you need to get an agreement to leave (without charge) from Daisy because they are incapable of getting the database fixed.

Post deleted by simon194

It will depend on which ISDN number is used ... from memory, the primary number will normally show availability, the other mapped numbers will not.

Hi All,

Thanks for the further info over Christmas. Hope you all had a good one.

Thanks Mr Saffron for deleting phone numbers. Noob error.

I have checked our phone records and we have 2 phone numbers which are delivered over ISDN2 and 2 numbers which are as far as I can see analogue, one carrying the ADSL and one carrying the alarm calls.

I think it has been mentioned before that we should have a line separate from the internet and alarm to house our ISDN connection so would assume that one of the ISDN numbers is the original and the other is an additional channel. both numbers are split. 1 into 4 and 1 into 2 channels.

I have also had feedback from OR. I submitted the form using what the boss believed should be our address and they have come back to ask if it should in fact be New Unit, which is what their systems says our number is registered too. We will see what the coming days have to offer from OR then I will look into some other options mentioned by other posters.

Thanks again, so far the best place I have looked for any help with internet. Cheers guys and gals.

have you put the alarm line through the Bt wholesale checker to see if you can get it on that line

have now tried all 3 of our physical lines that come into the property and they all have the same response.

Waiting on further response from OR.

Will keep you updated.

So its been nearly a month now and nothing much was happening with little to no help offered from BT and over 6 week wait with no contact after completing the OR help form. Decided enough was enough and i decided to email the big boys, you know the ones at the very top, Gavin Patterson CEO for BT, Graham Sutherland Managing director for Business delivery BT and Clive Selley CEO OR. Got a phone call fro a nice lady in the chairman's office who said she would ask the question of OR to see what the status of my query was. So any 2 days later an engineer turns up ( Yesterday) and he checks the line, all good, and says there's no reason why you can get fibre here your only couple of hundred metres from your cab.

Turns out the reason the fibre checker isn't showing us as eligible is because our premises which has been here for 30 years hasn't been assigned a DP ( Distribution Point, for those like me who are unsure of initials).

So it turns out the checker had absolutely no idea where our cable went and that is why it said the line was too long. I'm now waiting for the chairman's office to come back to me off the back of his report and let me know when i can order my fibre. So all in all a good result which shouldn't have been that difficult to come by.

If anyone does want to raise their issue to the top, go to CEOemail.com to find a list of all the bosses for most of the top companies in the UK.
It worked for me.

My final update wil be when i finally get fibre in to our premises.

Bryn out.

30 or more years back all of the BT records and maps were compiled by hand and edited in the same way when a change or update was made.

There will be errors in that data - it happens. Then when it was taken from written to digital storage there is always the possibility that a line could be missed on entered with a minor mistake.

The problem is trying to get it understood and resolved as there is no real path for it to take - you need someone in BT that will take ownership of the problem. Some staff will, but most will not, because of local management being tied or short sighted, however as soon as the Chairman's Office becomes involved, their directive take precedence over local management - as you have found.

Just make sure you send a "thank-you" to those you have been in contact with and if you have his details include the name of the BT tech that did the checks.

this issue wont be the DP is not recorded - it Is because that DP wont know where the cab is (unless it has a distance / line loss associated) if there is no line loss the DP will assume its out of Distance and then wont offer a a speed -there are occasaionly a few of these but they normally appear when a network rearrangement takes place or a premise has been empty for a while -- to give a view of Scale every premises in the Uk connected to the Openreach Network will have a DP associated to it -- and every DP that is connected to an enabled fibre cab will need to have a line loss associated with that DP to enable it to obtain a fibre service - (subject to being within suitable distance of the cabinet)

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Feb-17 12:29:40)

Agreed.
Its very surprising what gets done after you email the CEO of BT Group (Gavin Patterson) and the Chairman of BT (Michael Rake), you spend years of getting no where to all of a sudden it gets done a few days after those emails

Paul

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

... or a premise has been empty for a while ...

Premise:

Noun

1. A previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion:

�if the premise is true, then the conclusion must be true�

1.1 An assertion or proposition which forms the basis for a work or theory:

�the fundamental premise of the report�
________________________________________
Verb

1. premise something on/upon)

Base an argument, theory, or undertaking on:

�the reforms were premised on our findings�

More example sentences

1.1 State or presuppose (something) as a premise:

[with clause] �one school of thought premised that the cosmos is indestructible�

Oxford English Dictionary. It is not the singular of

Premises

Plural noun

A house or building, together with its land and outbuildings, occupied by a business or considered in an official context:

�the company has moved to new premises�

�alcohol is not allowed on the premises�

[treated as singular] �the three had negotiated a lease for a premises in Boothstown, Manchester�

In reply to a post by MHC:

30 or more years back all of the BT records and maps were compiled by hand and edited in the same way when a change or update was made.

There will be errors in that data - it happens. Then when it was taken from written to digital storage there is always the possibility that a line could be missed on entered with a minor mistake.

The problem is trying to get it understood and resolved as there is no real path for it to take - you need someone in BT that will take ownership of the problem. Some staff will, but most will not, because of local management being tied or short sighted, however as soon as the Chairman's Office becomes involved, their directive take precedence over local management - as you have found.

Just make sure you send a "thank-you" to those you have been in contact with and if you have his details include the name of the BT tech that did the checks.

It does seem hugely difficult to get anyone in BT/Openreach below director level to take ownership of a problem if it falls outside the tick the box to get it fixed type of issue.

Also local management appear to be dependent on an Openreach call centre in India leading in one recent incident a visit arranged to, as in the post above, sort out an error in the DP records and check the routing, going down as "new customer line fault" on the engineer's job card.

Very simple for an ISP to raise this with Openreach and resolve it.

Harder part is finding an ISP that would take ownership of it.

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

Very simple for an ISP to raise this with Openreach and resolve it.

Harder part is finding an ISP that would take ownership of it.

Simple or not, BT retail refused to do anything and passed the buck to Openreach who passed the buck to BDUK.

Only when I made a simultaneous complaint at director level to both Openreach and BT retail did anything start to happen, and even then it took four weeks of pushing to get it resolved.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Its very surprising what gets done after you email the CEO of BT Group (Gavin Patterson) and the Chairman of BT (Michael Rake), you spend years of getting no where to all of a sudden it gets done a few days after those emails

It doesn't always work.

My last major issue was caused by a survey entering the wrong PCP cabinet number for our line, which meant that ordering FTTC would set up a build job in the wrong FTTC cabinet ... so would never work out.

It took less than 48 hours from the order for the survey to put the wrong number in. It took 3 months of wrangling through the ISP to get the number changed.

My complaint to the BT CEO was ignored. My complaint to the Openreach CEO was fobbed off, pointing me at the ISP. Even after I'd explicitly explained the ISP (which was that well-known BT-owned subsidiary) was getting nowhere.

Must remember to add the chairman next time. And now there's even a chairman of Openreach to add - which might be important, as Openreach attempts more autonomy.

You have some very unique experiences. I cannot see how Openreach push something to BDUK for a data integrity issue...

Normal process is ISP raises a suspect data integrity issue (needs to be your current operator). If the ISP isn't happy with the outcome, they raise it to DSO as a complaint.

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

You have some very unique experiences. I cannot see how Openreach push something to BDUK for a data integrity issue...

Normal process is ISP raises a suspect data integrity issue (needs to be your current operator). If the ISP isn't happy with the outcome, they raise it to DSO as a complaint.

Openreach and BT have to accept there is a data integrity issue for anything sensible to happen. If they assume that their records are right you get this sort of nonsense.

And these experiences are certainly not unique as a troll through this and any similar forum shows.

Gerada your cab was part of BDUK - and there the county programme is the overriding factor on that -- that's a decision your community chose to go down !!!!

not sure how you think their is an openreach call centre in india either -- there might be some back office / Tech functions

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Its very surprising what gets done after you email the CEO of BT Group (Gavin Patterson) and the Chairman of BT (Michael Rake), you spend years of getting no where to all of a sudden it gets done a few days after those emails

It doesn't always work.

My last major issue was caused by a survey entering the wrong PCP cabinet number for our line, which meant that ordering FTTC would set up a build job in the wrong FTTC cabinet ... so would never work out.

It took less than 48 hours from the order for the survey to put the wrong number in. It took 3 months of wrangling through the ISP to get the number changed.

My complaint to the BT CEO was ignored. My complaint to the Openreach CEO was fobbed off, pointing me at the ISP. Even after I'd explicitly explained the ISP (which was that well-known BT-owned subsidiary) was getting nowhere.

Must remember to add the chairman next time. And now there's even a chairman of Openreach to add - which might be important, as Openreach attempts more autonomy.

Well you have to remember we was getting nowhere for a total of 5 years and we as in my local MP and myself.

And all it took was the email to my local MP stating facts about there being no reason why we cannot get fibre when the hardware is already live for a home 4 doors from me.

I then forwarded that email along with along with other stuff to the two people I already stated in my last reply and I got a phone call from the chairman's office where I was given a case handler that communicated between me and a set case handler at Openreach.

There was a few issues to do with faults being tagged on only my line which was incorrect so I sent another email to those same two people and a few days later all was well and I got fibre installed.

But overall I think it was the email the chairman's office (i.e. Michael Rake) received that got things done.

I filled in one of BT's SMS Survey the other day due to reporting a speed cap issue and the last question was would I recommend BT to a friend, 0 being no and 10 being yes.

I said 8, where I was then asked why I said 8.

I replied "All my issues have been resolved by a simple call or an email to the Chairman's Office" 2 days later I received a phone call from the chairman's office about the response I gave, which I just said nothing was wrong and just explained why I gave that response.

They was very apologetic.

The sad thing is it really does fall back to notifying the people near the top of the chain to get things done, when it shouldn't.

Paul

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

Gerada your cab was part of BDUK - and there the county programme is the overriding factor on that -- that's a decision your community chose to go down !!!!

not sure how you think their is an openreach call centre in india either -- there might be some back office / Tech functions

The over-riding factor was Openreach incorrectly showing several properties being connected to a DP several miles away and outside the intervention area. It took director level intervention to override that and get the records corrected and the issue resolved.

The Openreach contact form https://www.homeandwork.openreach.co.uk/get-in-touch... goes to a contact centre in India. According to an Openreach engineer their instructions come via India, something borne out by the English I saw on the responses we got when trying to sort out the latest issue.

You were on the same cab as all the others on FTTP?

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

You were on the same cab as all the others on FTTP?

No, Its hard to explain, I will send you a PM, so I don't take over this thread.

Paul

Correct my original statement of our DP not being assigned was incorrect, it actually turns out it had been assigned to a property a mile down the road. it took the engineer an hour to work out what our DP should have been numbered as it wasn't written/ had faded over time on the box.

And now the good news, our FTTC order has been placed again having to use director level emails to get it done as my local business office kept telling me porky pies about having to send of forms to get access to our account as we ordered our ADSL online and not through them.

Turns out they do have to send forms off but the 10 or so phone calls over 5 months in which they had said the form was sent off it actually never was. Then i was told my order couldn't be placed until they had access to my account. But then i was given a date 21 days from the date i tried to order - even though they hadn't had the forms back and couldn't place an order until such time.

I had enough and email CEO Gavin Patterson again, Chairman's office sorted it all in a day with my change over to FTTC being done this Friday 17th March. I now also have 2 hub 5's to boot.

Unless all goes wrong come Friday I will bid this group farewell and thank you all for your advice and guidance.

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Mar-17 16:45:27)