BT Infinity 1 Changing T&C's

My first year with this plan expires on August 1st 2017 however I've received an "offer" from BT to renew for 18 months apparently from next month to renew Infinity 1 including line rental and was wondering what the panel thinks of this offer as I assume lots of subscribers are in this position?

All depends on your view of the terms of the offer and its very likely that different people will get different offers.

What has the question got to do with T & Cs? Am I missing something? Maybe that your line rental isn't currently with BT?

Edit - I've just realised the early start date of the new contract, and wonder if there is any explanation as to why they aren't waiting. To do with the price increase I believe is due?

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 10-Feb-17 23:24:43)

Well I'm a tad surprised that this is news on TB Perhaps T&Cs doesn't explain things, so let me expand... BT sent me an email [given I am on. Contract for 12 months which is due to expire at the end of July 2017] offering me a new deal whereby I will avoid increases in my payment to them in a new deal an offer which will expire at the end of March 2017 which apparently increases my payment but includes line rental. Seems fine but a) I was surprised that they could come back to me before the end of my agreement and b) if I don't take their offer I could be screwed come August.
As I mentioned earlier I am amazed that this hasn't come up previously on TB. Should however I have posted this in the wrong forum on TB then please accept my apologies.

That's not a change to T & Cs. The orice rise is well known, as is the fact you may not be aware of that the price rise within contract enables people to leave without penalty, as long as they notify within 30 days of being personally informed by letter or email that it is coming. (Ofcom rules for all ISPs). No need to pay off the required amount stated in the T & Cs.

Many people do take advantage each year and migrate for a better deal elsewhere, then move again elsewhere or back when their new ISP raises their price within the contract period.

All that BT have done is offer you a retention deal early, to stop you leaving.

Line rental and broadband prices now have to be added together and presented as one figure when offered in a bundle. If you look at all the big boys' websites you will see they all do this. Only where broadband is offered with the line rental with a different provider is it not included.

Yes, they can do it and it isn't that uncommon. BT can choose to offer to change the terms of your supply at any time - but they can't force it on you (unless they also give you the option to leave which is what they do with the price rises).

When prices went up last year I had an offer from BT - I was about 3 months in to the minimum term on a deal and the new deal was significantly better and only increased the minimum term by that 3 months - so I went for it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What has the question got to do with T & Cs? Am I missing something?

or who "The Panel" is.?

Depends on the deal, what were you offered?

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Depends on the deal, what were you offered?

My apologies I'll have to learn how to phrase questions better.

BT offer is...

Unlimited Infinity 1
100GB CLOUD
Up to 52Mb speed
Totally Unlimited usage every month
We're offering you Unlimited Infinity 1 with line rental at £31.49 a month, as a thank you for being with BT. That's 34% off our standard price.
£31 .49 Δ /mth
Including line rental
18 months

Ring 0800 800150
Ask for cancellations

Deals that are going include (based on forum posts)
1) BT Infinity 1 for £25.99 - 24 months
2) BT Infinity 1 for £27.99 - 18 months
3) BT Infinity 2 for £33.49 - 24 months
4) BT infinity 2 for 35.49 - 18 months

The deal you have is good, but I think they can do better.

Post deleted by seb

I honestly don't even think you'll need to do much persuading they are giving good deals with little fuss.

Just say talktalk is offering you £27 a month for fibre and you have friends who have been offered better deals at BT.

Ask if they can check with a manager for a better deal no matter what they offer initially. It usually gets the deal even better.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

I honestly don't even think you'll need to do much persuading they are giving good deals with little fuss.

Just say talktalk is offering you £27 a month for fibre and you have friends who have been offered better deals at BT.

Ask if they can check with a manager for a better deal no matter what they offer initially. It usually gets the deal even better.

Okidoki Thanks for that. I'll have a bash at that in the morning. Cheers

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

I honestly don't even think you'll need to do much persuading they are giving good deals with little fuss.

Just say talktalk is offering you £27 a month for fibre and you have friends who have been offered better deals at BT.

Ask if they can check with a manager for a better deal no matter what they offer initially. It usually gets the deal even better.

Well that didn't work...
Told him I have a friend on Infinity 1 at £25.99pm for 24 mths another on Infinity 2 at 33.49 for 24 months
No movement - Nada- Got told about "the router we supplied you which is the faster/strongest WiFi router available.".dah-de-dah

I asked if he could extend the offer to 24 mths and I would accept and stay, Nope I can't change the system.

Looking at the TalkTalk website I told him I could get up to 38Mb for 2 year for £27 or up to 76Mb for 2 years for £32 (not sure I'd get over 60Mb but was making a point)

No movement whatsoever. I asked to speak to his manager 3 times - he decline but said eventually said he would have a chat with his colleague - he could have talked to a wall AFAIAC and came back stating there is nothing whatsoever he could do to improve on the offer.

I mentioned that I could get unlimited anytime UK calls with TT for £5 pm for 24mths. That I was trying to budget on a fixed income (pension) and he after looking at my BT bills said "you seem to have made quite a few 0845 and 0871 calls [my note: all calls last month totalled 42 and the previous month 39 yes there were a few 0845 and 0871 in there] do you realise that you will pay TT a fortune for these calls and also BT's anytime plan includes call setup whereas TT's doesn't?"

- Hmm smacks of abuse of monopoly surely unless BT is losing doing that?

Backstory - I think because the deal I currently have gave me £110 Quidco cashback my account must be marked as "Concede Nothing!" - and I can understand that. (actually forgot that but he made no reference to it as it happens.

I don't mean to divert the thread onto TalkTalk but are they as bad as I hear/have heard?

They seem to be discounting hard to regrow the business they lost due to the customers' data hack/loss.

Talk talk will be 40/2 rather than 55/10 which is the major difference.

I had Quidco also.
Shame about the person you spoke with, I'd personally have hung up and rang again.

Did you speak with cancellations?

Talktalk CS is similar to BTs and the connection at least for me was fine.

I only got a good deal on my third call tbf.
You'll see a full thread of the deals people are getting over at:
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/f/4529846-switci...

Are you being clear that you will leave due to the price rises by placing an order with talktalk?

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 16-Feb-17 18:55:01)

yes spoke to cancellations

yes very clear about moving to TT

clock started tonight on my 30days with BT

BUT on phone now with TT and she says on their 76MB boost I'll get 31Mb down and 13 up!! I currently get 49.9 Down and 9.9 up
What?
waiting to hear the techs explanation right now

In reply to a post by jayteepics:

yes spoke to cancellations

yes very clear about moving to TT

clock started tonight on my 30days with BT

BUT on phone now with TT and she says on their 76MB boost I'll get 31Mb down and 13 up!! I currently get 49.9 Down and 9.9 up
What?
waiting to hear the techs explanation right now

It's the same line you'll get the same speed (barring caps, which on the 76mbit package are 80/20 anyway).

But ISPs give various estimates as they balance giving the highest estimates and attracting customers, to giving too high an estimate and getting complaints that they can't fix.

By estimating low, they know you definitely won't complain as you'll almost certainly get more.

Further to TalkTalk...
Well that went badly I hope it is ok to post the chat which was after 1 phone call with sales the 2 phone call with tech then 3 chat session with sales

The entire 1 hour I wasted is summed up with this I hope it is ok to post this..

I told them I wanted to go from BT infinity 1 52MB with ipprofile of 50 down and 10 up I sent the TB broadband speed tes result on my line 48.9 down 9.7 up and I wanted to know what TT's 76Mb boost would deliver....Seemed a reasonable question I thought anyway.
.
Info at 20:42, Feb 16:
Hi, welcome to TalkTalk. One of our agents will be with you shortly.

Changes to your account will only be made when confirmed in this chat. If for any reason your chat ends before receiving confirmation, please chat back.
Info at 20:42, Feb 16:
You are now through to Preeti. How can I help you?
Jamie at 20:43, Feb 16:
I wanted information about 76Mb boost broadband and the sales agent told me I would receive 31Mb down and 13MBup
Preeti at 20:44, Feb 16:
I understand your query and will be happy to help you.
Preeti at 20:44, Feb 16:
May I have your full name and home phone number?
Jamie at 20:44, Feb 16:
I am currently on BT Infinity 52Mbps I have an IP profile of 50Mb down and 10Mb up.
Jamie at 20:45, Feb 16:
TT tech said I should be able to send you a link to my speedtest
Jamie at 20:45, Feb 16:
I wanted to send email but he said to send the link via chat
Jamie at 20:46, Feb 16:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...
Preeti at 20:46, Feb 16:
Just to confirm, you want to signup with TalkTalk?
Jamie at 20:47, Feb 16:
Only when you offer me proper speeds
Jamie at 20:47, Feb 16:
that number at the end of the link showed asterisks trying again
Jamie at 20:47, Feb 16:
id=1****************7160
Jamie at 20:48, Feb 16:
1****************7160
Preeti at 20:48, Feb 16:
I will connect you to our sales team and they will assist you with this.
Preeti at 20:48, Feb 16:
Shall I connect this chat for you?
Jamie at 20:48, Feb 16:
phew
Jamie at 20:48, Feb 16:
yes
Preeti at 20:49, Feb 16:
Please stay online while I connect this chat for you.
Info at 20:50, Feb 16:
Please stay online whilst we transfer you to the relevant department.
Info at 20:50, Feb 16:
You are now through to Thandeka. How can I help you?
Thandeka at 20:51, Feb 16:
Hello,Jamie.
Jamie at 20:51, Feb 16:
I was talking to sales I then asked to talk with a technical person who said I should sent a link to my current broadband speedtest result
Thandeka at 20:52, Feb 16:
I will be happy to assist you with your query.
Jamie at 20:52, Feb 16:
I have BT Infinity 1 52Mb I want a projected speed for TT 76Mb boost
Thandeka at 20:53, Feb 16:
I understand.
Jamie at 20:53, Feb 16:
The sales person came back with the result of 31Mb down and 13MB UP. I already ger close to 50Mb down and 10 UP why would I accept a contract at the figures you quote
Thandeka at 20:54, Feb 16:
Can you please provide me with your full address, post code and your land line number so I can do a line check for you?
Info at 20:42, Feb 16:
Hi, welcome to TalkTalk. One of our agents will be with you shortly.

Changes to your account will only be made when confirmed in this chat. If for any reason your chat ends before receiving confirmation, please chat back.
Info at 20:42, Feb 16:
You are now through to Preeti. How can I help you?
Jamie at 20:43, Feb 16:
I wanted information about 76Mb boost broadband and the sales agent told me I would receive 31Mb down and 13MBup
Preeti at 20:44, Feb 16:
I understand your query and will be happy to help you.
Preeti at 20:44, Feb 16:
May I have your full name and home phone number?
Jamie at 20:44, Feb 16:
I am currently on BT Infinity 52Mbps I have an IP profile of 50Mb down and 10Mb up.
Jamie at 20:45, Feb 16:
TT tech said I should be able to send you a link to my speedtest
Jamie at 20:45, Feb 16:
I wanted to send email but he said to send the link via chat
Jamie at 20:46, Feb 16:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...
Preeti at 20:46, Feb 16:
Just to confirm, you want to signup with TalkTalk?
Jamie at 20:47, Feb 16:
Only when you offer me proper speeds
Jamie at 20:47, Feb 16:
that number at the end of the link showed asterisks trying again
Jamie at 20:47, Feb 16:
id=1****************7160
Jamie at 20:48, Feb 16:
1****************7160
Preeti at 20:48, Feb 16:
I will connect you to our sales team and they will assist you with this.
Preeti at 20:48, Feb 16:
Shall I connect this chat for you?
Jamie at 20:48, Feb 16:
phew
Jamie at 20:48, Feb 16:
yes
Preeti at 20:49, Feb 16:
Please stay online while I connect this chat for you.
Info at 20:50, Feb 16:
Please stay online whilst we transfer you to the relevant department.
Info at 20:50, Feb 16:
You are now through to Thandeka. How can I help you?
Thandeka at 20:51, Feb 16:
Hello,Jamie.
Jamie at 20:51, Feb 16:
I was talking to sales I then asked to talk with a technical person who said I should sent a link to my current broadband speedtest result
Thandeka at 20:52, Feb 16:
I will be happy to assist you with your query.
Jamie at 20:52, Feb 16:
I have BT Infinity 1 52Mb I want a projected speed for TT 76Mb boost
Thandeka at 20:53, Feb 16:
I understand.
Jamie at 20:53, Feb 16:
The sales person came back with the result of 31Mb down and 13MB UP. I already ger close to 50Mb down and 10 UP why would I accept a contract at the figures you quote
Thandeka at 20:54, Feb 16:
Can you please provide me with your full address, post code and your land line number so I can do a line check for you?
Jamie at 20:54, Feb 16:
The technician said that sales must have a throttle on the test numbers
Jamie at 20:55, Feb 16:
**** - ***** - TA10 9BU
Thandeka at 20:55, Feb 16:
Thank you.
Thandeka at 20:56, Feb 16:
Please allow me 2 minutes, whilst I look into this for you.
Jamie at 20:56, Feb 16:
ok
Thandeka at 20:56, Feb 16:
Thank you.
Thandeka at 20:57, Feb 16:
Thank you for your patience.
Thandeka at 20:57, Feb 16:
Great news, our full range of services are available to you.
Thandeka at 20:58, Feb 16:
This is your estimated speed: Minimum estimated download speed: 25 Mb Download speed range: 31 Mb - 40 Mb.
Jamie at 20:59, Feb 16:
If you have read and understood what I typed above you will understand that this is shockingly BAD NEWS!
Thandeka at 21:00, Feb 16:
Can you please elaborate on the services you would require from me?
Jamie at 21:02, Feb 16:
76 Mb Boost is greater than BT 52MB and you come back with the same silly figures WHY would I pay more for a lot less when I am supposed to be getting more!!
Thandeka at 21:03, Feb 16:
I do uderstand.
Thandeka at 21:03, Feb 16:
However, we offer the unlimited broadband.
Jamie at 21:04, Feb 16:
Oh good night so is BT for goodness sake
Agent is typing...

Edited by deleted (Thu 16-Feb-17 21:23:39)

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

Talk talk will be 40/2 rather than 55/10 which is the major difference.

Also BT recently moved their customers to care level 2 whereas TT will be care level 1, so in theory any faults should get fixed a day quicker as a BT customer.

The estimated speed is a range rather than a specific number. They are probably quoting the bottom end of the range, i.e. the worst case scenario - just their way of managing customer expectations.

In reality you won't get a lower speed than you currently get with BT.

There are three stability options on Openreach DLM. AIUI BT choose the fastest. What Sky and TalkTalk choose I wouldn't swear to, but would expect Stable or Super Stable, (or equivalent namings).

I was with TalkTalk for 7 years without problem. Their phone/live chat is useless, almost entirely offshore. If I ever had issues I spoke to the excellent OCE's on their forums. They are UK based and very knowledgeable.

You won't get them to quote you any higher estimates though. Some ISP's quote the BTw checker low estimates, some go for the high, some go somewhere down the middle.
I recall with some ISP's they offer the high estimate if you have a managed install with an engineer, and low estimate for a self install.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There are three stability options on Openreach DLM. AIUI BT choose the fastest. What Sky and TalkTalk choose I wouldn't swear to, but would expect Stable or Super Stable, (or equivalent namings).

BT use Speed DLM profile.
TalkTalk use Standard DLM profile.

The only difference being the numbers of resyncs and ES allowed per 24 hours. It does mean TalkTalk lines are more likely to be interleaved, and on those lines a little slower.

DLM profiles are also confused by BT OpenReach and BT Wholesale naming them 2 completely different ways which crossover.

OpenReach = Wholesale
Speed = Standard
Standard = Stable
Stable = Super Stable

So TalkTalk tell you they use Standard DLM profile, but they don't use BT Wholesale at all, so they give OpenReach terminology.
BT/Plusnet use the Wholesale wording and tell you they use Standard DLM profile, but it's actually the Speed profile using the same terminology as TalkTalk.

I'm not aware of any residential ISP's who use the bottom profile. Some better ISP's will also change DLM profile for you.

Some good deals at plusnet right now

http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/plusnet-unlimited-fi...

I was with Plusnet until last August and only got 1.85Mb up.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You won't get them to quote you any higher estimates though. Some ISP's quote the BTw checker low estimates, some go for the high, some go somewhere down the middle.
I recall with some ISP's they offer the high estimate if you have a managed install with an engineer, and low estimate for a self install.

I looked a couple of weeks ago...
TT offered you the bottom of the B range
Plusnet offered you a range, and gave speeds from the A range
AAISP offered from the bottom of the B through to the top of the A.

Obviously the speed won't really change when you move ISP. However, the most important perspective is what number they use when choosing to fob you off on a support call.

The long and the short of it is after another hour on the phone to TT where I did actually talk with a technical UK support manager is

For TT 76Mbps Fibre + Boost Incl. Line Rental the threshold that TT would consider they were defaulting on the contract was 25Mbps [one third of their Max]
They agreed that they indeed passed on the call setup charge and charged for 0845 & 0871.
I complemented them on their 24 months FIXED price offer and also their claim to offer new deals ongoing to existing customers too.

However, I declined to sign up to what was reasonable pricing not just for Fibre Broadband Boost but also their Anytime and International calling plans [despite having to passing on the call setup charges and the 0845/0871 calls.]

I may be a total pedant as it seems nobody else had voiced such objections, BUT I couldn't agree to sign up to their 76Mbps +Boost when their minimum level of service was 25Mbps before I was allowed to cancel the contract [note: this was based on the assessment of my line, YMMV]. I said I doubt their lawyers would refrain from enforcing the contract with gusto if the service dropped to 26-27 Mbps and I tried to terminate the contract. The guy said he couldn't argue with that posited scenario (however unlikely).

So, to finalise where I'm at and where I'm going, and I must add that without THINKBROADBAND.COM staff and contributors I would not have had such input,to help with my deliberations, however in the end I have ordered a solution from an internet and phone provider where the internet service is based on a service provided by Entanet and phone provision by bulk purchase directly with Openreach which in total is a bit more expensive than I had planned and which won't see me in the ranks of the 80/20 club due to the limitations of my line, but potentially better than what I have now with reasonable line rental and call charges.
Thanks all for your patience and I apologise for posting the entire webchat with TT but maybe those who cared to plough through it realised how pathetic the dialog was.

Also worth checking what they offer on www.bt.com/myoffer

I am being offered BT Infinity 2 for £33.49 but for 18 months rather than 24 (currently have Infinity 1) which may suit someone who doesn't want to be locked in for as long as 2 years

What does the BTw DSL checker quote you under the downstream handback threshold column?

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

What does the BTw DSL checker quote you under the downstream handback threshold column?

VDSL Range A (Clean) 42.4
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 25

Can you expand on this info please?

As I understand it that's the figures at which Openreach will let the ISP out of their contract, and refund any charges. I'm not 100% sure on when they use the clean or impacted figures. Looks like Talktalk are quoting you the impacted figure.

I recall reading something along the lines of, if you have a managed install (with an engineer testing the line) then they use the clean figures. If it's an unmanaged install (self install, no engineer) then they use the impacted figures. I can't recall if that was for the downstream handback threshold or just for an ISP quoting estimates. Don't quote me on that I might have read it on the back of my Coco Pops box.

Ultimately talktalks service would have been equally as fast as the more expensive one you have chosen.

When they quote 25Mbps they're just quoting the lowest number on the BT estimate which makes sense as some people will end up at the lower end of the estimate. The vast majority will be much faster nonetheless.

The impacted speed accounts for cross talk and a poor setup.