BT insist my line isn't capped

If anyone has been following my saga from last week:

here

Then I have an update.

BT booked an engineer for next week for me to do the DLM reset to remove the capping. I have just received a call to say an engineer has the the reset. However, despite a resync, nothing has changed but BT insist the cap is reoved and have cancelled the engineer visit for next week.

To me, the sync at 55000KBps and 17000Kbps indicate it is still capped:

Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 7.7 7.2
Attenuation (dB) 19.1 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.6 7.5
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 61566 19317
Rate (Kbps) 54999 17000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 227 163
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 0 0
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 12
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.1319 0.3047
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 14562 4621
D (interleaver depth) 4 2
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 240 176
N (RS codeword size) 240 176
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 54.00 55.00
OH Frames 0 0
OH Frame Errors 4092 119
RS Words 24598636 2110867
RS Correctable Errors 51 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 86200643 0
Data Cells 17643 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 102 73
Total SES 74 9
Total UAS 71

Is there anything more I can do? They insist that as it's connected at 55Mbps and that is my estimated speed (even though before the fault and for 2 yrs I've been sync'd at 64ish) then there is nothing more she can do.

Is the line still banded?

Looks banded, however, they're right in that if you're within the estimated range they don't have to send out an engineer.

Would you really see the difference in 4 or 5meg? Unlikely.

It's just really annoying - a few days before fault surfaced, my snr dropped to 5 and then 4 and my sync had gone up to 68Mbps.

Now it's capped, with an snr of 7.

So my only option now is to wait, leave modem alone and hope that banding is removed by DLM - is that about it?

leave modem alone and hope that banding is removed by DLM - is that about it?

Yes

Bingo.

In reply to a post by WelshWArrior:

So my only option now is to wait, leave modem alone and hope that banding is removed by DLM - is that about it?

... which could take many months. I've been banded pretty much forever now; fortunately it's so close to my max attainable that it doesn't really matter at the moment.

Argue your case. Point out only an engineer can reset the DLM and you've continuously been lied to and told it's been reset.

It may only be a few mb at the moment, but by the time u add the gains from 3dB SNRM target then you're missing more like 15mb. It came from a genuine fault that you reported, and they should reset the DLM after fixing a fault within their network.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

leave modem alone and hope that banding is removed by DLM

<moan>
Words like *hope* shouldn't be used in this day & age. The platform should be such that either the ISP's can have control back (like they do with exchange based deployments) or OR should just do what is asked of them (maybe with a nominal fee of £1)

I've got sites & customers who would *love* to be on an FTTC service (me included) but they can't due to the fact DLM can not be tamed and they might find themselves on max interleaving one day, or a banded line at 20mbit which may or may not ever reset its self at some point if the DLM feels like it and nothing external happens...

We don't really need DLM - just let the line run at its max rate & if they fail then that's a *network* issue that the network provider should be resolving. Not punishing the EU.

I realise the EU may rather have some service (banded, interleaved or whatever) but its simply masks the faults and issues of a life expired network being used to deliver the DSL.

</end moan>

So those who don't like DLM, what sort of connection are they using in the meantime.

DLM needed or not is another debate.

They are all still stuck on ADSL2+ (mostly) some of which have specific DLM settings to work-round dodgy line plant which means there lines don't get banded every time it rains and no jumping to interleaved then getting stuck. They suffer a few disconnections and a bit of packet loss from time to time but they see that as far better and more stable than any of the FTTC offerings so far. (Some places had lines on test and had nothing but trouble, other places are stuck as EO fed.

At least one defected to virgin media - and after some initial troubles seems to be ok with the service.

Edited by IamQ (Wed 12-Apr-17 18:37:58)

Those who tested I understand, and EO too, but others unless their low end VDSL2 estimate is below their current ADSL2+ speed its worth a try, and for ADSL(ADSL2+) users even if same download speed the better upload can be worth it alone e.g. even if they go from 0.7 Mbps upload to 1.9 Mbps upload that will be noticed.

At least one won't be able to order as there too far from the cab. One is on the limit and would rather have a slow but working ADSL service then an extra mbit or 2 on a line that might not stay up any better. Several don't want the 12 month minimum term (very limited number of providers do monthly)

I agree the upload would be great (especially for me) but I cant have a line that's going to end up interleaved or banded after rain or in the winter when the noise floor comes up - with no way to remove it, my line plant isn't great, we are OH fed and suffer breakthrough and many missing tones due to medium wave TX'ers

Issues with X-Talk and ever reducing speeds have left at least 2 others shy of bothering at the moment (They wanted the 80mbit service, but locally people are down to about 65 in some places) - They may defect to VM shortly I suspect.

And one mad/lucky person who's looking at FTTPoD!

Annoying as this is, what you are seeing is DLM working as expected. Does it warrant an engineer to visit, because a setup is performing how it was engineered to?

Ultimately, in the absence of interference, a fault and/or disconnections your line would not have been banded. In your case as it was a fault I would expect a fairly quick recovery (say a few weeks). Certainly when I had a fault the banding got removed after around 14 days and interleaving around 1/2 months after. Full recovery about 2 months for me but this was back in 2012.

I totally understand what you are saying and agree that DLM is doing what it should be doing BUT the fault was caused by the uplift work that BT were doing at my cab which caused a loose joint and BT have admitted as much - which I have it in writing (albeit an online chat log).

When they rang this AM to cancel my appointment, they said they were doing it because an engineer had done the DLM reset. I don't believe this for a minute as it should have caused a disconnect and also reset the banding.

I am of the opinion that, as it is their fault, they should get an engineer to do the DLM reset for me.

I think all the engineer did this morning is swap me to a different port at the exchange!

Well despite BT cancelling my engineer appointment yesterday, telling me the engineer had fixed issue, I had 14 resyncs overnight so something is seriously wrong.

Do I have grounds to ring BT an insist they send engineer? If anyone wants to check, I'm Tenbyboy2 on MDWS.

Edited by WelshWArrior (Thu 13-Apr-17 09:05:57)

You can insist, but whether they will is another matter, and its possibly more of a battle convincing the retailer than it is open reach

Must be so difficult for them to source an engineer or someone who can spend a minute putting your phone number into an automated telephone service to reset the DLM.

There are arguments all around DLM its such a touchy subject but if you advertise your service as most do nowadays especially for multi user household use and 'gaming' then you have to be willing to clear any sort of interleaving after a hard fault has been fixed.



Nobody should expect perfect internet but simple things like this are all the difference OR need to realise this.

I have yet to have any Openreach engineer who's flat out refused to do an DLM reset just before leaving after a visit.

DLM reset is not done from a phone number. It's done with an OGEA reference which the engineer can only see on an FTTC fault job.

I concur with that as it is the reason this all started in that the engineer that came to fix the phone line fault didn't have an OGEA reference as it was only down as a line fault.

Got home at lunchtime and couldn't hear an answerphone msg due to all the noise on the line - it was back!!

Straight onto BT chat and she did a test and said there is a fault and has booked me Engineer for Saturday morning. I also told her about the now 21 resyncs I've had in 18hrs so there was a mention of that in the notes.

She said it was to fix the line so I asked her to make sure it is for Line and Broadband as last time it wasn't and he couldn't do DLM reset. I said he needs access to OGEA reference and she she said she'd make a note.

I have even recorded the noise on the line this time as it wasn't so bad when engineer arrived last time

If it's been raised as a noise line fault, then don't expect a reset.

Line fault tasks don't provide the engineer with any informatiom about broadband connectivity.

Only if an engineer is booked specficially for a broadband fault, will they have the ability to reset DLM.

I told her I wanted both faults looked at and she said she's put it in the notes which I can view online so I'll check after work.

If not, I'll be back onto them as I'm fed up being fobbed off by them now. Don't care so much about the speed loss, it's more about the fact that I know it's capped but they insist it's not. I knew the fault was still there yesterday but they insisted it wasn't. I just want it sorted.

Edit: Just checked and they have updated the fault I reported that they cancelled the engineer for yesterday. It is a broadband fault so should be good - hopefully

Edited by WelshWArrior (Thu 13-Apr-17 14:20:35)

It still needs to be reported as a broadband fault, with a note about noise on the line, rather than as a noisy phone line fault with a note about broadband disconnections. Different people in Openreach are going to pick it up and assign their type of engineer.

The advice we gave for years about reporting a noisy line in order to get a broadband fault fixed quicker, (assuming there really was a noisy line), was never a guaranteed broadband fix. As has been frequently pointed out by more than one engineer on these forums. It simply worked in a high percentage of cases so was usually worth doing.

It also served the ancillary purpose that if there was no noise when the engineer tested, that no charge would be raised on "No fault found", unlike on a broadband "no fault found". That benefit went down the pan years ago when Openreach started charging for that on phone problems as well as broadband.

It did still work on ADSLx lines, but on FTTC is a dodgy approach. Particularly once banding has been applied! As you have found out a few times already with this fault.

With luck you may get the problem sorted. But luck is what it will be.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 13-Apr-17 14:31:37)

The fault actually reads:

Reported Fault

Problem
Broadband - Slow Connection
Reference number
VOLXXX-XXXXXXXXXXXXX

So I'm hopeful!!

Stands a chance .

Time will tell I suppose but I hope so.

However, I best not hold my breath

Well the engineer has failed to turn up again - I'm fuming!

Been onto chat for 7th time since this saga began, to be told the engineer has been to my house this morning and marked the issue as fixed! I have been outside my house literally ALL morning fixing the car and at no point have BT been.

On top of this, she did another line test and confirmed the issue remains.

I'm really starting to lose confidence in BT as my ISP and will be writing a letter of complaint once it is finally resolved.

Also spoke to 4 of my neighbours this morning, specifically asking them about their broadband, to be told they are ALL having similar issues.

Trouble is it's Open Reach that didn't turn up, and unfortunately whatever ISP you use they still have to deal with Open Reach for FTTC, but some are better than others at getting OR to do their job.

My ISP is Bt so you'd think they'd have a little more input and power over Openreach but obviously not.

I'm still going to make a complaint as I've now missed 2 half days in work and a family Birthday today and the wife is barely speaking to me because of today (some might say that's a good thing mind )

I just really hope they turn up Tuesday now. Luckily I have the week off so won't need to take any more time off to be here!

Every ISP has the exact same "power".


Openreach cannot be seen to give preference to any ISP.

You should invoice them for your lost wages, got to be worth a go.

No chance on a residential service.

It shouldn't make any difference, OR have wasted his time and he's incurred costs (lost wages), I'm sure OR would charge him or the ISP if he wasn't in and therefore missed an appointment.

The only hope of claiming would be to put a claim in via the ISP (who have the contract with Openreach for the wholesale provision of the line) showing actual financial loss. Even then, I'm not sure the contract would cover this sort of consequential loss.

There's no way to claim directly from Openreach in tort of negligence; the lost wages would be pure economic loss, which is, generally speaking, not recoverable in negligence.

looks to be banded but surely thats better than interleaving?

People seem to fight over every last mbit.

I would much rather have a banded line than interleaving, the only issue I see with banding is that it doesnt tend to relent and is often permanent or a very slow recovery.

You down about 5mbit which is about 10% of line capability.

In reply to a post by WelshWArrior:

If anyone has been following my saga from last week:

here

Then I have an update.

BT booked an engineer for next week for me to do the DLM reset to remove the capping. I have just received a call to say an engineer has the the reset. However, despite a resync, nothing has changed but BT insist the cap is reoved and have cancelled the engineer visit for next week.

To me, the sync at 55000KBps and 17000Kbps indicate it is still capped:

Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 7.7 7.2
Attenuation (dB) 19.1 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.6 7.5
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 61566 19317
Rate (Kbps) 54999 17000
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 227 163
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 0 0
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 12
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.1319 0.3047
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 14562 4621
D (interleaver depth) 4 2
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 240 176
N (RS codeword size) 240 176
Delay (msec) 0 0
INP (DMT symbol) 54.00 55.00
OH Frames 0 0
OH Frame Errors 4092 119
RS Words 24598636 2110867
RS Correctable Errors 51 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 86200643 0
Data Cells 17643 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 102 73
Total SES 74 9
Total UAS 71

Is there anything more I can do? They insist that as it's connected at 55Mbps and that is my estimated speed (even though before the fault and for 2 yrs I've been synced at 64ish) then there is nothing more she can do.

Is the line still banded?

So from your previous posts, i see that you did previously have a sync rate of around the 66mbps mark? and my obs of the stats you have provided, do indicate that DLM M aka (miss management)has capped the circuit unless you have requested a change of product (55/10 ) because the current sync rate by its self does suspiciously indicate that you are on their 55/10, until you look at the US side sync rate
maybe that is something for you to consider (worst case) with a different isp of course, if the upstream throughput isn't detrimental to your needs of course
BT retail are ... IMO, And yes now that the novelty value should have worn off VDSL2 tech, by now the ISP should have control to override DLM, resets, etc, even completely switch off if need be

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 16-Apr-17 19:32:03)

I suspected the same, I thought "surely he's just on the Openreach 55Mb product" until I saw the upstream. So it must be DLM.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

I suspected the same, I thought "surely he's just on the Openreach 55Mb product" until I saw the upstream. So it must be DLM.

looks that way, especially if it won't sync at a different higher rate after successive retrains

Edited by tommy45 (Mon 17-Apr-17 12:11:52)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Icaras:

I suspected the same, I thought "surely he's just on the Openreach 55Mb product" until I saw the upstream. So it must be DLM.

looks that way, especially if it won't sync at a different higher rate after successive retrains

I don't think a DLM recalc has ever been done though. As soon as you request one (as an engineer) you get a text to say it has been done and it always works.

Or you get a text to say the request has timed out, but that's very very rare and you'd just try again in that case.

Well after loads more disconnects over the past few days, the Handback Threshhold of 48Mbps has been well and truely passed!

VDSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL Profile: Profile 17a
G.Vector: Disable
Traffic Type: PTM Mode
Link Uptime: 0 day: 1 hour: 14 minutes
====================================================================================
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 11.998 Mbps 43.997 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 11.999 Mbps 43.998 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 9.1 dB 10.2 dB
Actual Delay: 0 ms 0 ms
Transmit Power: 7.5 dBm 12.6 dBm
Receive Power: -4.8 dBm -8.0 dBm
Actual INP: 55.0 symbols 55.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 0.0 dB 19.4 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 17.676 Mbps 59.278 Mbps
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 5.5 26.8 41.5 N/A N/A 14.3 34.5 53.9
Signal Attenuation(dB): 5.5 26.2 40.7 N/A N/A 16.5 34.2 53.9
SNR Margin(dB): 8.7 9.1 9.1 N/A N/A 10.3 10.2 10.2
TX Power(dBm): 0.6 -16.3 6.5 N/A N/A 8.4 7.9 6.9
====================================================================================

VDSL Counters

Downstream Upstream
Since Link time = 14 min 19 sec
FEC: 378827 0
CRC: 161 0
ES: 29 0
SES: 10 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 14 min 50 sec
FEC: 262788 0
CRC: 112 0
ES: 19 0
SES: 7 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 116011 0
CRC: 49 0
ES: 10 0
SES: 3 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 14 min 50 sec
FEC: 378827 0
CRC: 161 0
ES: 29 0
SES: 10 0
UAS: 29 29
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Total time = 1 hours 14 min 50 sec
FEC: 378827 0
CRC: 161 0
ES: 29 0
SES: 10 0
UAS: 29 29
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

If the engineer can't do a DLM reset tomorrow (and I doubt it as job now showing as line fault not broadband one in my account), I'll be leaving BT as I've had enough.

Edited by WelshWArrior (Mon 17-Apr-17 18:43:53)

If you're still getting disconnects then they need to find and rectify the fault. Otherwise a DLM reset will be pointless, as the line speed will drop again.

Leaving BT wouldn't make any difference, as you'd still be using the same copper line from the cabinet.

Unless of course you go to Virgin.

Well I'm happy - engineer has been, happened to be the husband of my wife's colleague in school. Spent well over an hour fault checking, changing master socket (now a plasticy looking 5c) and now noise all gone. DLM reset BUT line speed still low compared to max attainable:

Mode VDSL2
Traffic Type PTM
Status Up
Link Power State L0
Downstream Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis) On On
SNR Margin (dB) 6.2 5.9
Attenuation (dB) 19.0 0.0
Output Power (dBm) 12.6 7.5
Attainable Rate (Kbps) 60872 17443
Rate (Kbps) 51472 17454
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame) 51 237
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword) 1 1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame) 64 64
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword) 12 16
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans) 0.0321 0.4339
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol) 15928 4683
D (interleaver depth) 1007 1
I (interleaver block size in bytes) 64 127
N (RS codeword size) 64 254
Delay (msec) 8 0
INP (DMT symbol) 3.00 0.00
OH Frames 1925629 568710
OH Frame Errors 4 1
RS Words 492838359 2300975
RS Correctable Errors 33660 9
RS Uncorrectable Errors 63 0
HEC Errors 12 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
Total Cells 393657927 0
Data Cells 3198517 0
Bit Errors 0 0
Total ES 1 1
Total SES 0 0
Total UAS 32 32
xDSL BER Test Reset

Could this be just because g.inp isn't yet active? I have check with BT and my profile is correct in that I'm still as showing as on the up to 76Mbps service.

Yes, the attainable is much higher as you have traditional interleaving applied. It would be nearer 55-56mb with G.INP. Glad you got it sorted, with a DLM reset as the cherry on top.

Yes, that's great . Exactly as John says re interleaving. G.INP is never applied by default on a reset.

When mine was reset a few weeks ago, G.INP kicked in on the second or third day after - I forget which. Just don't mess ! It will re-sync automatically.

Good - was hoping it might just be g.inp not being on yet.

Yeah it was good that I sort of knew the engineer. He was in no hurry and was more than happy to do the reset even though it was down as a line job.

He also swapped me to a different pair as there were 5 or 6 spare in the box attached to my house.

I can sit back now and fingers crossed - no more resyncs!!

Hahaha - yep I'm leaving the router well alone. I've also instructed the wife that if she unplugs it to plug hoover in, there will be trouble

Just had resync by looks of it and g.inp is now enabled.

Speeds now 60310 / 16894 so speeds back where they were at the start of this saga!

Once snr drops again I should reach 67Mbps like before

Praise be !

Hahahaha yep. Just glad my wife works with the engineer wife because BT sent him for a line fault. He was more than happy to do a reset though

In reply to a post by WelshWArrior:

Hahahaha yep. Just glad my wife works with the engineer wife because BT sent him for a line fault. He was more than happy to do a reset though

Glad it is sorted