Limited to 40/10 incorrectly

Hi,

We have recently had fttc go live on our cabinet and ordered the BT business broadband upto 76mb package. Initial line estimates showed a possbile 22-32mb download speed and 4-6mb upload. Now I took these speeds with a pinch of salt as we are a stones throw away from the cabinet but it seems our line has been provisioned on a 40/10 profile due to the line estimates but max attainable rate is 90mb+. Stats below.....

I've spoken to customer services / faults but they say the speed is within the estimates given at the time of ordering so there is nothing they can do about it.

Is there any way to get this corrected with openreach?

Line estimates: https://postimg.org/image/zdrkmulrl/

Line stats: https://postimg.org/image/6adlcwru5/

Doh!

Yeah you need to escalate within BT business

Edited by deleted (Thu 13-Jul-17 13:52:59)

Needs BT Business to raise the issue with Openreach

ISP is BT Business.

I've tried contacting them but I just get passed from department to department. As far as they're concerned we're getting speeds as estimated when ordering so there is nothing they can do.

Escalate to a manager.

If still not happy, CEO.

BT are correct, there is nothing they can do about it as BT Wholesale estimates your line only get 31.6Mbps downstream.

The max attainable rate is never appear on the BTW checker. All isp's must follow policy on the BTW line estimates on the downstream.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect. If the line is syncing at 92795/32560 then there is no reason whatsoever for BT Business to provision as 40/10 if the customer requires 80/20. The BTW initial estimate may be incorrect, it often is, but this isn't set in stone and there is nothing to prevent OR enabling 80/20 but to do so BT Business has to request this through BTW. That they won't is a good reason for involving the CEO team.

Fair point taken. But, I think BT Business will reject it. Like all ISP's always follow BTW checker line estimates.

Edited by adslmax (Fri 14-Jul-17 00:55:18)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Fair point taken. But, I think BT Business will reject it. Like all ISP's always follow BTW checker line estimates.

Script-reading clowns might reject it but I suspect a CEO might take a different view. Obviously one for escalation.

In reply to a post by fliptgc:

our line has been provisioned on a 40/10 profile

Strange thing is BT Business don't even do an 'up to' 40/10 tier on FTTC based services. They've put you on a service which they don't sell!!

https://business.bt.com/products/broadband/

I wouldn't let this go easily OP, as others have said sending a message to the CEO office will be the quickest way of getting this resolved.

[email protected]

Nonsense, as usual.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Fair point taken. But, I think BT Business will reject it. Like all ISP's always follow BTW checker line estimates.

Script-reading clowns might reject it but I suspect a CEO might take a different view. Obviously one for escalation.

Any ISP with decent support would be able to sort you out.

Uno's checker will hide the Fibre+ packages (80/20) if your estimated speed is less than 40Mbps I believe - but a quick email to the support team and I suspect they would have no problems processing the order for 80/20 if you requested it.

That's a good spot, I don't see how BT support can argue with that. That is assuming they have any clue about checking which service has been provisioned, which is obviously 40/10.

Which in itself is an error. 55/10 is the product BT use from Openreach.

According to the BT Business product range they should only be supplying 80/20 so some ordering foul-up has happened.

It may be that BT are provisioning the product based on the estimates so they can save a few pennies

That is the case for BT retail. BT Business presumably have different terms and have used 40/10 because it is cheaper and by the expected speeds wouldn't have been noticed - but they have been caught out because of the incorrect estimate from the checker. What they should do is hold their hands up and admit they got it wrong (both the estimate and the subsequent decision to use the cheaper wholesale product).

I think you'll find all ISPs will provision a 40/10 product if your line can't support faster, it saves them money. I know plusnet do this, we are on a 80/20 business product, but Openreach have us on 40/10 as that's what PN ordered, we get 36/6 so no point requesting the faster product.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

I think you'll find all ISPs will provision a 40/10 product if your line can't support faster, it saves them money. I know plusnet do this, we are on a 80/20 business product, but Openreach have us on 40/10 as that's what PN ordered, we get 36/6 so no point requesting the faster product.

Incorrect. For example TalkTalk business and most other business only ISPs (BT Biz included) only sell the 'up to' 80/20 tier on FTTC so that is what the ISP will order from Openreach - even if your line supports less than 40/10. If Plusnet Business have put you on the slower 40/10 service (e.g. d/t line length) then they should charge you accordingly otherwise they're profiteering from you - which is immoral if not illegal.

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Jul-17 14:08:18)

The isp doesnt need sell that product to be able to order it from openreach.

What ronski is saying that if the isp has a reason to believe the line will not exceed a 40/10 sync rate then to save themselves money they order the cheaper product from openreach.

I do agree with you tho they on shaky ground doing this as this counts as an artificial cap and means they not actually supplying a up to 80/20 service to the customer.

Both BT business and plusnet are BT group owned entities. So it is no surprise they follow the same practices. I got no idea if the likes of talktalk and sky do the same thing.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

if the isp has a reason to believe the line will not exceed a 40/10 sync rate then to save themselves money they order the cheaper product from openreach.

This obviously makes sense but then the ISP should pass on the savings to the customer by offering a lower priced 40/10 product in their portfolio. TalkTalk Business certainly order a 80/20 service from Openreach irrespective of estimated speeds as I know someone who's on a 35/12 sync, their estimated speeds were less than 40/10.

this is capitalism, there is no law that requires an isp to only have a certain profit margin, from the isp point of view they are still supplying the same service.

It's pretty silly really. If the customer want 80/20 and the customer pay extra for this service, I am sure there is no reason that openreach can provided you fttc service for up to 80/20 product if the line had a max of above 60Meg or more. But if the max rate below 50Meg then I see there is no point to have faster 80/20.

My parents line was estimates at 60-80Mb and her line go live at 71Mb with max rate of 74Mb but since the year went, her line suffered crosstalk went down to 48Mb. So, her maximum rate is 49Mb so, my parents have decide to save their cost, downgraded to 40/2 with plusnet later this month. Funny is BTW checker still saying her estimates line rate is between (see below) as it proved BTW checker isn't correct due to crosstalk with her line max rate current sit at 49Mb not between 60 and 80Mb:


Telephone number:
01***************
Phone exchange:
CUCKOO OAK
Estimated line speed:
40Mb (This may vary between 60.6Mb and 80Mb) - Checked on 2017-06-07 11:06:36
Current line speed:
40 Mb

Edited by adslmax (Fri 14-Jul-17 15:56:41)

I wouldn't call it profiteering, there are many companies that profiteer, especially in the mobile phone world.

I would say it's fine if the line simply can't handle more than 40/10 and the ISP didn't sell a suitable product, but in the OP's case or anyone's where the attainable is higher they should be transferred onto the higher package, otherwise it's wrong and your not getting what your paying for and your line is capable of.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I have emailed the CEO office at [email protected] outlining the problem and I have since received a phone call from them. They are raising the issue with the order team who should be in touch soon.

Let us all know the outcome, hopefully it will get resolved quickly.

Reminds of the time I ordered an ADSL Max Premium 'up to' 8128/832 kbps service from Netplan (Entanet reseller) many years ago. Yet Netplan put me on a bog standard (up to) 8128/448 service and kept saying my line couldn't support more than 448kbps in upload. In the end I got in touch with Entanet directly who knocked some sense into Netplan and eventually i was put on the premium product where my upload shot to 832kbps - download remained at a piddly 3mbps though.

Hope you get this resolved soon!

Edited by deleted (Mon 17-Jul-17 16:56:22)

Success! I received a phone call this morning to say technical support have completed the order. Now syncing at 80/20 with room to spare!

Stats...
https://postimg.org/image/zc2am0oor/

For a line with downstream attenuation of 17.6 dB, a Max attainable of 92Mbps is VERY good and suggests very little noise on the line either background or cross talk. And similarly with upstream, 33Mbps is very high

I am at 16.3dB attenuation and have a max attainable that varies from 79 to 80 Mbps due to noise, until one specific user powers up their modem and it drops to 67Mbps. My upstream max is around 25Mbps.

Just be aware that as others come online you may experience a drop in Max attainable and ultimately sync.

Edited by MHC (Wed 19-Jul-17 12:44:02)

Shame they made it so awkward to resolve because the "computer said no".
Good end result though!

yep thats a good line.

My attenuation is 15, when I was first on the cabinet I had 110 attainable (diff pair), the current pair has been between about 73 and 67 with a 6db snrm, but after a recent cabinet fault I now have 81 even with higher levels of QLN, it was hitting 100 attainable sometimes in the past week (probably a disturber not connected). So his connection with it in the 90s and a higher attenuation is excellent.

Great result, glad it got resolved, it's a shame you needed to involve the ceo office for something that should be simple.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

it's a shame you needed to involve the ceo office for something that should be simple.

Yes, I had to get the CEO and the Chairman of BT involved when ordering fibre.
We all got a Build Issue Tag on our lines due to build issues at our Splitter Node and BTOR just refused to remove mine even though the build issue was resolved.

As soon as I got the CEO and Chairman involved it took 1 day to get the TAG removed and they booked the two engineer visits within a few days after.

It really is a shame that we all need to go down that route to get things resolved.

Paul