FTTPOD 2nd port?

Dear all,
I'm intending to get a FTTPOD Connection via Cerberus- it is data only connection no landline. Is there a 2nd port on the FTTP connection- so than I can also get BT Infinity 4 at the same time?

Thanks
Radii

Depends.

Openreach are introducing a new ONTE that only has one port.

Do you really have the need for 2 330mbps connections

I believe Openreach will begin installing the new single data port ONT from Oct, so chances are you will get the new model.

Out of interest how much are you paying Cerberus in one-off costs and in monthly service charges?

In reply to a post by lee111s:

Depends.

Openreach are introducing a new ONTE that only has one port.

Do you really have the need for 2 330mbps connections

I know right, we are heavy users here and Infinity 4 300Mbits is fine for us.

Also the new ONT even though they might only have the one out port which you connect to the WAN port of the router, there is nothing stopping the ONT passing all 4 connections through that port.

Has anyone actually checked the specs for the new ONT, the port might be a 10G, 1G etc port and they might bring a new bit of kit that splits them.

Paul

Hi,
No don't need 2 x330 connection-- I ideally want BT infinity 4. But BT retail and BT business don't sell FTTPOD. If I get Cerberus FTTPOD will I be able to switch to BT Infinity 4 or will I have to start from scratch...I hope not as the infrastructure will be in place.

They are quoting 90 day lead time now.
Cost 4.5k+vat install, 90ex vat monthly 3yrs. >200/month cheaper than Fluidata

Once you have FTTPoD installed, then your property shows native FTTP availability on the BT/OR DSL checker. After your Cerberus FTTPoD service goes live then sure, you can migrate that service to BT Infinity 4 service provided you've completed your min term (3 years?) or pay off the contract early with Cerberus and then migrate to BT Infinity 4 or any other native FTTP service - it wouldn't make sense to do the latter though.

BT Infinity 4 is a native GEA-FTTP product and thus not available on Fibre on Demand connections, after the 3 years minimum term for FoD is over then things may be different.

So switching after 3 years yes possible, adding as a second connection, probably technically possible but not going to be something that usual sales know about, definitely not the consumer sales side and even business side is going to struggle.

The 90 ex vat is their standard FTTP pricing.

FTTPoD is £300+ ex vat.

This was discussed on another thread yesterday.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

The 90 ex vat is their standard FTTP pricing.

FTTPoD is £300+ ex vat.

This was discussed on another thread yesterday.

No, its fluidone who charge £300+vat per month for FTTPoD. I've just spoken to Cerberus and indeed they charge £87+vat per month for FTTPoD on a min 3 year term + one-off construction charges. So it appears Fluidone are no longer the sole supplier of Openreach based FTTPoD.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

BT Infinity 4 is a native GEA-FTTP product and thus not available on Fibre on Demand connections, after the 3 years minimum term for FoD is over then things may be different.

Incorrect, BT Infinity 4 is showing up as available at my home after having FTTPoD installed. So technically i could have this delivered over port 2 on my ONT.

https://postimg.org/image/opuj4kulx/

I think that's a mistake. Yearly rental would "only" be £1250.

The openreach rental charge is £1188. I doubt Cerberus are going to offer FTTPoD for £5.40 a month.

Max checked with them yesterday and they advised £300+

Interesting, did look when we've spotted some live FoD in the past and was not the case.

Is this Only for the property with the FoD? Do neighbours show up with those options.

Only the property that's paid for FoD does the wholesale checker then show WBC FTTP.

Neighbours still show FTTP on Demand.

Hi.
Could you advise? They are asking for £4500 cash or faster payments upfront and report 90 day lead time. They refuse credit card. Is this safe? I'm concerned about losing all my money.

This is a company (cerberus) I've never heard off.

There's an article on them over at ispreview so they'll be legit.

How does that follow? There's probably an article there about vivaciti after all.

In reply to a post by radii:

They are quoting 90 day lead time now.
Cost 4.5k+vat install, 90ex vat monthly 3yrs. >200/month cheaper than Fluidata

No they are £300 a monthly charge there is no way for £90 a month as Openreach don't allow this. It's their error mistake.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

No, its fluidone who charge £300+vat per month for FTTPoD. I've just spoken to Cerberus and indeed they charge £87+vat per month for FTTPoD on a min 3 year term + one-off construction charges. So it appears Fluidone are no longer the sole supplier of Openreach based FTTPoD.

I spoken to them yesterday Cerberus they say it will charged £300 a month on FTTPoD. At first they say £119 a month but mistaken revert to £300 a month. Now you saying it cost £105 a month on FTTPoD.

Who tell the truth?

Also they won't accept any credit card (very odd)

Another telephone call to cerberus on Monday to confirmed the price on FTTPoD. I suspect they quoted on new product FTTPoD2 ?

I think Mr Saffron need to raise this to find out what the monthly price charge for FTTPoD / FTTPoD2?

Edited by adslmax (Fri 04-Aug-17 17:34:47)

It's a price mistake.

They would lose money on this if they sold it at those quoted rates.

Yes it would seem to be. No isp's would offer FTTPoD for £90 a month exc vat as Cerberus isp is very poor lack of error in pricing.

Edited by adslmax (Fri 04-Aug-17 18:58:46)

I stand corrected, I thought the price of £90pm was too good to be true for FoD though their salesperson seemed very convincing. Looks like Cerberus are confused internally as to the pricing of FoD.

@OP
I also had to pay nearly 4.5k (one off costs) via bank transfer to Fluidone as they wouldn't take CC payments due to processing charges. My monthly charges are by monthly direct debit. You've probably got nothing to worry about if you did the same as Cerberus do seem like a legit outfit, HOWEVER as others have said it's extremely unlikely you will pay 90 quid a month in service charges (more like 300 pm) so I would get that clarified. Ask them why they've quoted you more or less the Openreach wholesale costs.

@MrSaffron
It's only my property on my street (Woodlands Park IV2 5FJ) for which the Bt checker is showing native FTTP availability, others still show FTTPoD.

You don't need to pay the full amount via credit card to get section 75 protection, if still going ahead ask if you can pay a small amount by credit card, I would do £100 but I believe it can be less, just the total needs to be over £100 to qualify.

In reply to a post by radii:

Dear all,
I'm intending to get a FTTPOD Connection via Cerberus- it is data only connection no landline. Is there a 2nd port on the FTTP connection- so than I can also get BT Infinity 4 at the same time?

Thanks
Radii

Did you end up placing the order with them? How much did they quote you? Intrigued to know if they will be charging you £90 pm or £150 pm.

I received quote for 90 per month
Did not go for it- as they wouldn't take £100 via credit card and rest via bacs/ faster payments.

1st there was Fluidata/Fluidone
2nd Cerberus

Likely in time more providers will come onstream.
I'm happy to go with BT Business FTTOD- it is listed in their price guide- but they won't sell it.
Maybe at some stage a residential provider will get it into the game.

It's very unlikely a residential ISP will get involved in FTTPod in its current form. OpenReach bind the ISP to a 3 year minimum term, but the ISP can only have 2 year contacts for residential customers.
The ISP would need to essentially eat year 3.

In reply to a post by radii:

"I received quote for 90 per month
Did not go for it- as they wouldn't take £100 via credit card and rest via bacs/ faster payments."

Radii did you receive this quote from Cerberus?

They told me that they are still "speaking" to Openreach and would only be able to give quotes next week or so. I've been waiting a few weeks for my quote while they figure out what FTTPoD really is. Initially when I first called them they gave an estimated quote of £150 per month but I am expecting their new quote to come in at £300 like fluidone.

In reply to a post by mumba:

They told me that they are still "speaking" to Openreach

I suspect they're telling porkies. Openreach's FTTPoD wholesale prices are fixed and in black & white so not sure why they need to talk to them.

FluidOne mentioned to me today that they insist on a Juniper router being installed, in order for them to offer their FTTPoD service.

They said it costs around £800.

Is this the case for any of you who are already customers of theirs? Is such an expensive router really necessary?

Would an existing router like a draytek vigor 2860 not cope fine with 330mbs or even 1 gigabit?

Yes it's compulsory for anyone who takes FTTPod from FluidOne.
It's a business product, not unusual they make you use enterprise equipment.
I wouldn't put the draytek vigor 2860 in that category.

Post deleted by radii

There is now a special section on the Cerberus website with FTTPoD pricing. It says £165 per month.

In reply to a post by Bill100:

There is now a special section on the Cerberus website with FTTPoD pricing. It says £165 per month.

Indeed there is:

https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

Whilst the monthly rental of £165 per month (+ one-off installation charges) appears quite attractive just be aware that they have a FUP/AUP of 750GB per month (AFAIK). On a FTTP 330/30 connection its easy to burn data quickly without realising it, i can easily get through 500GB a week on my 330 Mbps connection. However If you're totally confident that your monthly usage will be well within that then by all means go for it.

750GB would be extremely disappointing to say the least...

ditto

750GB is rather daft on FTTPoD to be honest. Also I don't believe £165 a month because BTOR would reject it. All FTTPoD cost more than £300 a month exc VAT.

Edited by adslmax (Mon 04-Sep-17 00:03:17)

That's nonsense. The OpenReach price is quite a bit less than £165.
OpenReach also can't reject an order because an ISP chooses to sell it at a loss, that's their choice.

I think the 165 price is reasonable, and probably other operators could make it a viable offering at that level.

However I had a brief look at the AUP and I couldn't find any mention of 750GB specifically.

But in recent weeks they have changed their product specs a lot, it's almost as if they are making it up as they go along. They used to mention 12mbps as a guaranteed throughput. That has disappeared but nothing has replaced it.

Has anyone taken up this or other services with them?

i didn't. with the news on Sunday about FTTP in certain regions (I'm in the area)..I'm gonna wait. Details are awaited.

Got odd email this morning from cerberus network manager as he now removed AUP policy of 750GB for FTTPoD, FTTP and FTTC. All now come with totally UNLIMITED and will offer me FTTPoD for £1200 sudject to survey and 36 monthly of £165 inc vat.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Got odd email this morning from cerberus network manager as he now removed AUP policy of 750GB for FTTPoD, FTTP and FTTC. All now come with totally UNLIMITED and will offer me FTTPoD for £1200 sudject to survey and 36 monthly of £165 inc vat.

They could go tits up if even a handful of users took up their offer at that price and began using TBs of data per month on a 330 Mbps FTTPoD service. Personally, I wouldn't feel very comfortable handing over £1000s to a company who change their pricing & t&c's more frequently than a hooker's knickers go up & down.

Edited by deleted (Mon 04-Sep-17 12:26:21)

I don't think their margin is all that small. It seems similar to other providers native FTTP levels e.g. Zen.

What is the recourse if they go belly up after your fibre is installed? Could you then order native FTTP from another provider? What exactly would OR do about such a situation? I suppose they would still want their full fttpod wholesale amount.

Edited by deleted (Mon 04-Sep-17 13:35:00)

In reply to a post by mumba:

FluidOne mentioned to me today that they insist on a Juniper router being installed, in order for them to offer their FTTPoD service.

They said it costs around £800.

Is this the case for any of you who are already customers of theirs? Is such an expensive router really necessary?

Would an existing router like a draytek vigor 2860 not cope fine with 330mbs or even 1 gigabit?

Not really they are rated for 300Mbps, and you would be paying for a VDSL modem that would never be used. On the other hand a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X 5-Port for £80 or the EdgeRouter Pro 6 port with SFP for £360 (VAT inc in both) would do the job. Better still throw in a suitable ONT SFP and you could in theory junk the Openreach provided ONT too. You don't get any WiFi but the Juniper solution does not have that either.

I have just been looking at the new EdgeRouter Infinity at work to replace our ER Pro's. Eight 10Gbps SFP+ ports for under £1.5K. Don't get me wrong Juniper is nice kit, just there are cheaper but still very good options out there. I have been very pleased with the EdgeRouter Pros at work over the last 3 years. My only complaint is that they come with C5 clover leaf power sockets which requires buying C5 to C14 leads to actually be able to use them in the racks as so little kit uses C5 sockets you don't normally carry a stock of them. Where as C13 to C14 leads I have coming out my ears.

In reply to a post by Bill100:

What is the recourse if they go belly up after your fibre is installed? Could you then order native FTTP from another provider? What exactly would OR do about such a situation? I suppose they would still want their full fttpod wholesale amount.

I think in such a scenario you would be free to move to another provider offering native FTTP (the BT/OR dsl checker updates FTTPoD service to native FTTP after service goes live) and Openreach would have to write off the loss of the FTTPoD installation costs. Openreach cannot bill the end user as the customers contract is with the ISP and not with Openreach. So from the end users point of view, perhaps its not such a bad thing after all if the isp goes belly up

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

throw in a suitable ONT SFP and you could in theory junk the Openreach provided ONT too. You don't get any WiFi but the Juniper solution does not have that either.

Whilst it may be technically possible, Openreach will not allow the use of a non-Openreach branded/supplied ONT on their FTTP service. Unlike xDSL services, the serial number of the hardware (ONT) is linked to your FTTP service - the Openreach Engineer scans the barcode on the ONT to activate it.

So I guess the problem comes if the isp offers a poor service themselves or gets bought out by someone who then offers poor service.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Got odd email this morning from cerberus network manager as he now removed AUP policy of 750GB for FTTPoD, FTTP and FTTC. All now come with totally UNLIMITED and will offer me FTTPoD for £1200 sudject to survey and 36 monthly of £165 inc vat.

Doubt it. They are unlikely to have unbundled your exchange leaving BT Wholesale as the likely carrier. BT Wholesale charge £140 + VAT = £168 / month rental for FTTPoD.

They can't quote a 36 month term to a private individual and I'm a bit lost as to why they'd quote including VAT. That would be extremely unwise.

Does this BT wholesale price include unlimited data consumption ?

If it does then it sounds quite good. They would be offering the monthly amount at cost.

In my case their installation cost was around 1500 more than Fluidata, perhaps that's their business model.

I am an account manager for Cerberus Networks, and I've been following the various forum threads regarding FTTP services. There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about our services.

Cerberus has never had a 750GB fair usage policy for any broadband service let alone FTTP or FTTP on Demand. There is also no minimum throughput of 12Mbps for FTTP services.

The pricing on our website is correct. All prices quoted exclude VAT.

FTTPoD services have a minimum term of 36 months, as supplied by BT Openreach. OFCOM do not allow the sale of broadband services with this minimum term to consumers. FTTPoD is therefore primarily a business service at this time.

Cerberus will take credit card payments the same as any other provider. Ongoing rental is normally taken via direct debit as it is convenient for all parties.

Cerberus was founded as an IT services provider and business ISP in 2006 and mainly works within the industry to supply broadband services through a wholesale channel. Although, on the whole, Cerberus doesn't sell services to residential customers, we do have residential clients who use services for business purposes and are happy to discuss the available options.

Thank you very much for clarifying. Could you describe what the minimum guaranteed throughput is with this service?

The £140 plus VAT is for the connection only. The ISP then needs to have their own network, support staff, onward Internet connection, servers, firewalls, etc to be costed within anything offered to the end user. That would see to be why most are charging much more than that per month.

That is interesting. Given that Openreach prices are a lot lower than £140, what exactly does the Wholesale price include that is not covered by OR?

In reply to a post by GenuineCerberus:

I am an account manager for Cerberus Networks, and I've been following the various forum threads regarding FTTP services. There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about our services.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

In reply to a post by Bill100:

That is interesting. Given that Openreach prices are a lot lower than £140, what exactly does the Wholesale price include that is not covered by OR?

Transport form the exchange / headend back to the handover point to the ISP's network. The handover point costs a fair bit too, of course

But, yeah, the extra is the BT Wholesale transport network.

Openreach charge is £99 per month. Not sure what the extra £41 for the BT Wholesale price covers.

EDIT : And the question was answered by IgnitionNet... So, £41 for the backhaul etc. If not done via BT Wholesale then the ISP would presumably need to put their own equipment in the exchange and pay for running that equipment and interconnects.

Edited by ian72 (Mon 04-Sep-17 15:58:34)

Do you have any current live customers on the FTTPoD package at £165 per month?

You do seem very good value compared to others we have seen discussed here and there isn't much margin on top of the OR/Wholesale costs for you.

Thank you all for that info... so that basically leaves £25 a month for Cerberus to meet all their costs including unlimited bandwidth..? Sounds a bit optimistic even if you factor in the larger than standard install cost.

I was thinking much the same but actually it is probably a similar profit margin to the standard FTTP 330/30 offering so if they can do it on that then why not on FTTPoD. At first look it seemed to good to be true but FTTPoD has no more in the way of running costs above the wholesale price than FTTP.

Thanks for clearing things up.

However you say

In reply to a post by GenuineCerberus:

Cerberus will take credit card payments

Yet according to user 'radii' he/she was refused the option of paying the first £100 of installation charges by credit card (to get S75 protection) and remainder by bank transfer?

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4563475-re-...

Just wanting to understand a bit more about how the whole system works...

The Wholesale product essentially directs customer traffic to an ISPs gateway? Are there additional bandwidth costs payable for this leg? And what physical connection to the OR network does the ISP have to have to receive that traffic? And are there other links in the chain I have missed?

I understand that from the point of hitting the ISPs network the traffic becomes their responsibility with costs etc.

This is purely for curiosity.

Hi 'Account Manager',
To confirm how genuine you are, can you confirm

1) Will you honour my FTTPOD quote- for £90/month (3yr contract)- I have the PDF quote
2) May I pay the installation charge (£4200 inc vat) via credit card (I actually offered just to pay £100 on card and rest via transfer but the account manager spoke to 'directors' who said this is not possible- I have the emails)

I am a business user.
I happy for TBB admin to see the quote/ verify this transaction.

I don't mind posting a review of the process for TBB and its users.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

throw in a suitable ONT SFP and you could in theory junk the Openreach provided ONT too. You don't get any WiFi but the Juniper solution does not have that either.

Whilst it may be technically possible, Openreach will not allow the use of a non-Openreach branded/supplied ONT on their FTTP service. Unlike xDSL services, the serial number of the hardware (ONT) is linked to your FTTP service - the Openreach Engineer scans the barcode on the ONT to activate it.

Sure somewhat similar to when ADSL and then VDSL where first launched. However you are now free to use your own modem for both those technologies. One expects that the same will apply to ONT's in the future. Who actually makes the Openreach supplied ONT?

Let's face it you can order them from FibreStore (the goto place for compatible optics at fractions of the price of vendor optics)

http://www.fs.com/c/pon-transceivers-2845

I an sure it won't be long before they offer one that can be programmed to emulate an Openreach ONT. However all the major vendors now do an ONT in an SFP product, so whoever does the the ONT will likely offer the same thing in an SFP format. Given a SFP based ONT's come in at under 2W power having a separate box is not good for the environment in addition to being an unnecessary clutter.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

throw in a suitable ONT SFP and you could in theory junk the Openreach provided ONT too. You don't get any WiFi but the Juniper solution does not have that either.

Whilst it may be technically possible, Openreach will not allow the use of a non-Openreach branded/supplied ONT on their FTTP service. Unlike xDSL services, the serial number of the hardware (ONT) is linked to your FTTP service - the Openreach Engineer scans the barcode on the ONT to activate it.

Sure somewhat similar to when ADSL and then VDSL where first launched. However you are now free to use your own modem for both those technologies. One expects that the same will apply to ONT's in the future. Who actually makes the Openreach supplied ONT?

Let's face it you can order them from FibreStore (the goto place for compatible optics at fractions of the price of vendor optics)

http://www.fs.com/c/pon-transceivers-2845

I an sure it won't be long before they offer one that can be programmed to emulate an Openreach ONT. However all the major vendors now do an ONT in an SFP product, so whoever does the the ONT will likely offer the same thing in an SFP format. Given a SFP based ONT's come in at under 2W power having a separate box is not good for the environment in addition to being an unnecessary clutter.

One of the main reasons why Openreach won't let you use a third party ONT is because the installed ONT is usually in a fixed location (typically a wall) where the fixed EZ-bend fibre cable terminates at. You can't just place the ONT on any surface and have the fibre cable all over the place willy nilly like you can with a RJ11 cable. The fibre connector terminating at the ONT is NOT designed to be repeatedly removed and reconnected, ie its a lot more delicate than your typical RJ11 lead. I have the Huawei HG8240 ONT installed by Openreach, though I believe OR also install other models of their ONT.

I guess you *might* be able use a third party ONT if someone managed to hack into the existing Openreach one to get all the settings which you can then transfer over to the new ONT but as very few people have Openreach FTTP installed, this hasn't been done.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

I guess you *might* be able use a third party ONT if someone managed to hack into the existing Openreach one to get all the settings which you can then transfer over to the new ONT but as very few people have Openreach FTTP installed, this hasn't been done.

Yea, I guess you would need to be able to hack your own modem for your personal settings due to gpon transmitting/ONT receiving, all users data, AES encrypted and the ONT de-crypting just your own subset.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

You can't just place the ONT on any surface and have the fibre cable all over the place willy nilly like you can with a RJ11 cable. The fibre connector terminating at the ONT is NOT designed to be repeatedly removed and reconnected, ie its a lot more delicate than your typical RJ11 lead.

In Spain they don't seem to mind - in the villa I stayed in last month the yellow optical fibre cable came out of a hole in the wall, trailled along the floor and then plugged into the Huawei hg8247h ONT sitting on a kitchen table. Needless to say the yellow cable had cuts in the covering and parts of it were taped up! Still worked fine though.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

One of the main reasons why Openreach won't let you use a third party ONT is because the installed ONT is usually in a fixed location (typically a wall) where the fixed EZ-bend fibre cable terminates at. You can't just place the ONT on any surface and have the fibre cable all over the place willy nilly like you can with a RJ11 cable. The fibre connector terminating at the ONT is NOT designed to be repeatedly removed and reconnected, ie its a lot more delicate than your typical RJ11 lead. I have the Huawei HG8240 ONT installed by Openreach, though I believe OR also install other models of their ONT.

I have been working with fibre optic cable now for over a decade in my job. The idea that your Kevlar reinforced patch cable is some ultra delicate snowflake is simply nonsense. It just is not the case, period. The sensible thing to do would be terminate the incoming fibre into a box with say an SC or LC coupler (though for some reason ONT's seem to have standardized on SC). If Openreach are not doing this then they need their heads examining, followed by a thorough beating with a clue stick. I would never dream of terminating any structured fibre with a plug so it can be plugged directly into something in a data centre so why you would do it in a customers premises is completely beyond me.

Personally I would just coil the EZ-bend fibre cable up and terminate it in a box with a SC-SC coupler and then if one where to damage the patch lead, I could swap it out for a new one. Heck a 10m simplex single mode SC-SC cable is £1.80 at fibrestore and the single mode SC-SC simplex coupler is 18p and marketed for FTTH. This stuff costs buttons, in fact less than buttons these days.

I also notice that fibrestore for less than £10 will sell you a splitter for your FTTP connection. Admittedly you would need to blow some more on LC-SC adapters, but if you know what your are doing you can easily snoop on all the other downstream traffic on your "branch" if you wanted so hopefully it's all encrypted.

Oh and while FTTP might be rare in the UK the ONT's are using standards that are also used elsewhere in the world, and a quick Google suggests that hacking the serial number of a SFP ONT is already going on. Looks like these SFP ONT's are running embedded Linux Like I said it won't be long before some vendor provides an SFP ONT that you can easily change the serial number on so that SN or SN+password based authentication is can be hacked to other devices. The reality is that people with the skills to do this are going to be among the first to actually get FTTP, so trying to be restrictive about it is not going to get you very far.