Remote DLM Resets Live?

Hey everyone!

I've read on another broadband forum (don't know if I can name it, please let me know if I can), that someone who had a banded line has had the banding removed remotely by one of their ISP's staff, not an engineer...

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 15:34:46)

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/02/abilit...

Not until later this month, 19th at the earliest from Openreach but could vary for each ISP depending on their internal process I guess.

It's a massive step in the right direction though!

WOW, this is fantastic news! No more worrying about if I'll get charged if my line becomes banded!

As for the person with it supposedly being removed, do you trust everything you read on the Internet?

No, but in this instance yes, because the person has provided evidence with line stats to prove that it was completed. In fact, he's posted a comment on that article...

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 16:14:30)

He's referring to adslmax posting on Kitz.
His stats are live on MyDSLWebStats so definitely true.
OpenReach have been trialling this for at least a few weeks with a couple ISP's. Anoush from Plusnet sent max's line as part of this trial and it has indeed reset his dlm profile and removed his banding.

Where on MyDSLWebStats does it prove that the changes are due to a DLM reset, rather than the DLM system itself deciding to make the changes based on its existing algorithms?

I've never seen DLM randomly remove banding and G.INP and revert to the default Huawei profile (INP=3) that comes with a DLM reset.
It also came with a msg from the ISP confirming the case had been forwarded to Openreach for a reset.

The INP/interleaving took the line below the banding level, so there was no way to tell if the banding was removed until G.INP was reapplied. The banding is indeed removed.

I get being sceptical about things strangers claim online. This is clearly a DLM reset performed as part of this trial though.

MDWS won't show necessarily when someone's line has had a DLM reset or not but the recent pattern of events feel like it's a reasonable assessment that a DLM reset was performed. There's no way I know of to say for sure as to whether the line was just automatically managed by DLM or did indeed have a DLM reset.

However, if I'm not mistaken a DLM reset on a Huawei DSLAM typically defaults to making the downstream interleaved (INP 3, delay 8ms) first and then some time following that it changes the downstream to G.INP. The person's statistics show this pattern on MDWS. So I feel it's fair to say this looks genuine.

Edited by Ixel (Mon 05-Feb-18 16:41:44)

Totally agree with you and John, you just answered the query for me.

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 16:47:27)

To clarify some things here:

- Openreach have been trialling this for over six months with one large ISP and it was introduced to other ISPs back in early Nov 2017
- The original trial wasn't technically a full DLM reset. Instead, the trial allowed for the caution counters to be reset, which would help lines that were "stuck"
- BT Wholesale introduced the caution counter reset in December 2017 to their ISPs
- The new full DLM reset will be introduced on 19 Feb 2018
- BT Wholesale will introduce the full DLM reset at a future date

It also seems like adslmax threw his toys out of the pram again:

I am going to complaint to OFCOM, WATCHDOG and MP that broadband shouldn't lower resync to be banded for a very long time as this totally bang out of order from DLM. Disgraceful by BT.

I am surprised staff still tolerate him.

It wasn't a DLM reset because there is no option at present for ISPs to perform a reset.

What happened was his caution count was reset, so this meant his profile moved up a step (or two). If his line was still erroring after the counter reset, then it wouldn't have changed.

Blimey, well he kind of has a point, DLM shouldn't band lines like this, but that's just going to the extreme! Well, it'll be interesting to see the outcome, if he goes ahead with it.

Ah, now I see! That makes sense, it just seemed so quick that it looked like a DLM reset.

He'd better try the European Court of Justice too, while there's still time

Just found out that he recently had 27 resyncs in just a few hours, poor fella, I know how it feels...

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 19:12:20)

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

I am going to complaint to OFCOM, WATCHDOG and MP that broadband shouldn't lower resync to be banded for a very long time as this totally bang out of order from DLM. Disgraceful by BT.

I am surprised staff still tolerate him.

Just curious, where was this posted, if you don't mind me asking?

https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/DLM-In...

Ta. It seems that he wrote that before the caution counters reset was performed. Let's just hope this time, that the resyncs were caused by a wide area event, otherwise bad news...

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 20:04:25)

AndyH and MrSaffron - I suggest you to speak to Gandalf known as Anoush from Plusnet. His line look appear to be genuine resetted by PN.

His wording:
"I thought I'd echo on here what I've replied to your private message with.

At the back end of last week I became aware that we can send accounts that meet certain criteria over to our suppliers to remotely reset the line as part of a Trial.

I sent your account over on Friday and a DLM reset was supposed to take place yesterday. But it looks like it might have not happened because your line is still banded at 74mbps".

Because the GEA Test was outdated at the time of his posted.

Yes, and it looks like his line will stay as is, bet he's relieved...

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20950.msg364...

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 21:57:40)

He is incorrect.

There is at present, no way for ISPs to reset DLM. The caution counter reset has a similar effect, but it's not the same as a DLM reset for a list of reasons.

In the OR briefing today:

From 19 February 2018 the interim solution allowing CPs to request lines they would like the caution counters reset on is being changed. CPs will now be able to request lines they would like a full DLM reset on. This will replace the ability to request caution counter resets.

By the way adslmax, it's quite obvious this is another account you've set up here...

Hmm, I reckon you could be right... He�s posted on the kitz forum that he�s an avid walker.

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Feb-18 22:51:43)

Andy does it really matter if it's a counter reset or a full reset it still got the job done your arguing over technicality, the line was banded now after the reset be it counter it's not.

Lets just be thankful that finally ISP's have some control when it comes to banded lines / stuck profiles, this coming from someone that has been on the receiving end of a banded line in the past and the nightmare of getting it removed.

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Feb-18 02:15:13)

I don't have to listen to you. U just don't know nothing at all. No matter if it was DLM resetted or caution counter. The ISPs PN has done it, the line is unbanded and are now at the maximum rate. End of.

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Feb-18 09:27:53)

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:

By the way adslmax, it's quite obvious this is another account you've set up here...

5 posts since last November. Doesn't seem profliic enough unless he's lying low.

100% it's him (his latest post confirms it).

MrSaffron?

You don't need to remind MrSaffron as he will know it me anyway. But, I keeping it as a low profile but my lying over DLM reset by PN isn't lying or make it up as there is proof by kitz forum, Gandalf and MDWS as my line is unbanded because when DLM changed my line from 74000k to 69594k on the 29th January at 6:10pm as someone metion it DLM reset because interleave set at 3 and G.INP was removed then 3 days later the G.INP has applied and my sync rate return to 79999k with interleave at 8 on the 1st February at 1:45pm as a result of RDI: Remote Defect Indicator/DLM.

I wouldn't lied over this.

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Feb-18 11:47:00)

It matters to the extent that some providers might now get a wave of people demanding a DLM profile reset thinking it will fix all ills, when its not a full DLM Profile Reset, but an adjustment of some parameters.

One of the main issues with doing a full DLM reset is that if a line does have underlying issues, you're essentially creating a period of instability while the line is reassessed.

A perfect example of this is someone with multicast service delivered over their FTTC line. A customer wouldn't be particularly happy if their line drops out multiple times during a football match or film because their line has been reset.

A valid point, though on the other hand it offers the opportunity to prove/show something may not be right. In my case I had excessive downstream error seconds at one point, in the many thousands within 24 hours. It was pretty much almost 1 error second every few seconds.

I've had some engineers who admit that interleaving is used as a method to mask a potential line fault even if the standard line diagnostics such as CIDT don't immediately show a problem, instead of the engineer being allowed to do a little further investigation. I realise there's time and resource constraints too, but yeah.

Probably a year or more ago now, I moved from a 40/10 service to an 80/20 knowing that my line was capable of syncing at over 50,000. I was willing to pay an extra couple of quid for a 10Mbps boost.

My connection speed, however, remained stuck at exactly 40,000. When speaking with my ISP, I was informed that an engineer visit would be required in order to reset this locked speed.

Fast forward to October 2017, and to my surprise one day my line was connecting at over 50,000 (currently over 54,000). My internet speed on speed tests also went up over 10Mbps to around 48Mbps. Clearly at some point the restriction on the line was removed - maybe as part of some upgrades to their FTTC equipment? Currently stable for over 60 days at the same line rate.

Whatever happened required no engineer visit to me and I am pleased with the increased speed. I guess that they do review or remove these things every so often whether automatically or manually.

jayteedc

This happened to me once, I think DLM can eventually decide to remove the banding but it takes a very long time to do so. The other possibility is a change in backhaul, this will effectively trigger some kind of DLM reset.

No disrespect to the engineers, but I've heard so many things over the years from engineers, that you have to sometimes take what they say with a pinch of salt.

DLM is a complex set of algorithmic rules. It acts on the side of caution and takes action based on the analysis of line performance from various factors. However, certain issues became apparent after Openreach were forced to re-write aspects of DLM due to losing the court case. My understanding is that one of the main things changed was the process in which people 'step up' a profile after a line is deemed to be stable.

The main reason for the introduction of a reset function was that one large ISP did some in depth research and found a small percentage of lines were stuck in sub-optimal profiles. Whilst the percentage was quite small, if you look at the cost of support for ISPs dealing with customers reporting speed issues and then the Openreach engineer attendance cost, we're talking hundreds of thousands if not millions a year.

I have had banding imposed and banding removed and all without contacting anyone, so yes it does happen.

Yes, DLM banding either ever relents, or takes a very long to...

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Feb-18 13:03:48)

Constantly resetting might also mask an actual fault.