Interesting Findings - SSFP MK4 vs Test Socket

Hi guys,

I've noticed that if my modem is connected to the test socket on my master socket 5c, the amount of FECs/retransmissions drop considerably (over 90% in some cases), compared to when it's connected to the SSFP.

I've also noticed that the SNRM is more stable, the QLN graph is less noisy and the Hlog is more complete. I don't know if the MK4 is faulty, but it seems that it produces noise rather than removes it! There doesn't seem to be any significant difference in the sync speed between the test socket or the SSFP, either.

Obviously, having the modem connected to the test socket isn't ideal, but it's obviously in a better place than before!

Has anyone else noticed this behaviour?

Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Jul-18 15:07:17)

Presumably there are no extensions connected to the faceplate? If not then it does sound like maybe the electronics on the faceplate are on their way out.

Nope, none whatsoever. I checked all of the extension sockets in our house and they're all dead (no dial tone).

Could well be a dodgy faceplate then.

Yeah, well it does rattle when I shake it. LOL.

Here are some comparison of line stats:

MK4 SSFP:

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6853 Kbps, Downstream rate = 54180 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 7517 Kbps, Downstream rate = 51893 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.7 5.6
Attn(dB): 26.8 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.1 6.5

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 227 223
M: 1 1
T: 0 42
R: 10 0
S: 0.1397 0.9466
L: 13625 1893
D: 4 1
I: 238 112
N: 238 224
Q: 4 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 125 0
TxQueue: 25 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 25 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 122 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 8.0000 0.0000
L: 32 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 671297
OHFErr: 4 9
RS: 190121832 28185059
RSCorr: 2214698 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 415190 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 3321027 0
RSCorr: 644 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 1206290 0
rtx_c: 1142892 0
rtx_uc: 13 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 603 0
minEFTR: 50919 0
errFreeBits: 5143405 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 648634319 0
Data Cells: 5955687 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 3 9
SES: 0 0
UAS: 198 198
AS: 6671

Bearer 0
INP: 55.00 0.00
INPRein: 1.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 9.97
OR: 0.01 25.65
AgR: 52006.93 7542.53

Bearer 1
INP: 2.00 0.00
INPRein: 2.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 63.75 0.01
AgR: 63.75 0.01

Bitswap: 1131/1475 39/40

Total time = 1 hours 54 min 29 sec
FEC: 2214698 0
CRC: 4 9
ES: 3 9
SES: 0 0
UAS: 198 198
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 29 sec
FEC: 215621 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 368732 0
CRC: 4 1
ES: 3 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: N/A
FailedRetr: N/A
FailedFastRetr: N/A
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 54 min 29 sec
FEC: 2214698 0
CRC: 4 9
ES: 3 9
SES: 0 0
UAS: 198 198
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Since Link time = 1 hours 51 min 11 sec
FEC: 2214698 0
CRC: 4 9
ES: 3 9
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
>

Test Socket:

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 6979 Kbps, Downstream rate = 52271 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 7464 Kbps, Downstream rate = 50655 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.6 5.9
Attn(dB): 26.8 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.1 6.5

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 227 223
M: 1 1
T: 0 41
R: 10 0
S: 0.1432 0.9532
L: 13300 1880
D: 4 1
I: 238 112
N: 238 224
Q: 4 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 120 0
TxQueue: 24 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 24 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 122 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 8.0000 0.0000
L: 32 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 357543
OHFErr: 0 14
RS: 97190936 14656745
RSCorr: 160155 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 217463 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 1739206 0
RSCorr: 356 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 9176 0
rtx_c: 9175 0
rtx_uc: 0 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 0 0
minEFTR: 50636 0
errFreeBits: 2696796 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 340137095 0
Data Cells: 14241016 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 0 13
SES: 0 0
UAS: 122 122
AS: 3494

Bearer 0
INP: 54.00 0.00
INPRein: 1.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 9.80
OR: 0.01 26.10
AgR: 50766.39 7490.73

Bearer 1
INP: 2.00 0.00
INPRein: 2.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 63.75 0.01
AgR: 63.75 0.01

Bitswap: 644/718 10/10

Total time = 1 hours 16 sec
FEC: 160155 0
CRC: 0 14
ES: 0 13
SES: 0 0
UAS: 122 122
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 16 sec
FEC: 194 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 3778 0
CRC: 0 3
ES: 0 3
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: N/A
FailedRetr: N/A
FailedFastRetr: N/A
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 16 sec
FEC: 160155 0
CRC: 0 14
ES: 0 13
SES: 0 0
UAS: 122 122
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
Since Link time = 58 min 13 sec
FEC: 160155 0
CRC: 0 14
ES: 0 13
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
FailedRetr: 0
FailedFastRetr: 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
>

Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Jul-18 15:29:59)

In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:

Nope, none whatsoever. I checked all of the extension sockets in our house and they're all dead (no dial tone).

Just to be clear: there's no dial tone even when the faceplate is in? Because removing the faceplate will disconnect the extension wiring (at least in a modern box).

Also, even any partial or incomplete extension wiring might have an effect, so better to make sure it's entirely disconnected from the master socket by checking nothing is connected to the extension wiring terminals.

Yes, correct. There are no extension sockets connected, the work was done years ago.

Have you checked the work was done correctly?

Sure was, we've had several engineers visit the property and they would've spotted if we still had extension wiring connected!

Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Jul-18 08:23:58)

Should I leave the modem connected to the test socket or risk buying another MK4 SSFP?

If you are happy with it connected to the test socket then there isn't really any harm in that - it doesn't look quite so "finished" but as long as you don't mind that then no issue. Do you also have a phone connected? If so presumably you have used a dangly filter to connect the router/phone?

Ok, fair enough. Yeah, I have both the modem and phone connected via a dangly filter to the test socket.

603 LEFTERS and 3 ES in less than 2 hours on a line that has retx high is shockingly high.

At that continued rate there's absolutely no way the line would hold a 3dB SNRM target.
There was likely either an external noise source, the DSL patch cable was accidentally moved during that time or the MK4 has just broke and is now fit for the bin.

There's no way your line has been seeing that level of LEFTERS/ES everyday with the MK4 connected. The line would have dropped to a 4dB SNRM target (or higher) long ago at those kinds of error numbers.

If there is no need for a landline then I would ditch the MK4.
It's not there to "remove noise" but simply to filter voice off from broadband.

Yeah, I was shocked at those values too, especially the LEFTRS. Unfortunately, there is need for the landline, so I'll just have to make do with the test socket for now. Would it be possible to replace the MK4 with a standard faceplate?

For example, could I replace the SSFP section with the bottom half of this?

Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Jul-18 17:25:46)

It�s got an RF filter it that ain�t in its dangly cousin.

Nope, the front plate of the linked Flea Bay item will not fit your older style NTE.

I have the master socket 5c though? So, what will fit other than the SSFP?

Sorry, brain fart, yep, that�ll fit.

No worries, thanks for confirming. So, is it worth attaching the bottom part then, or is it ok in the test socket? What is your opinion on the MK4 SSFP?

Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Jul-18 20:10:59)

If not fussed about the appearance, just leave it in the test jack.

Don�t think the 5c and it�s associated SSFP are as of as good quality as the MK3 and old NTE5a. Cheap innit.

Ok, thanks and I assume there's no way to go back to the MK3 and 5a without replacing the backplate and rewiring the socket?

Correct and to go back would be expensive since that needs an approved engineer

Dont forget William that an Openreach Engineer would have to change the master socket back to a 5a which they are unlikely to do.

Andrew has just said that, Tim.

Edited by deleted (Sat 21-Jul-18 08:32:27)

Assuming they had a 5a in their van. Can�t order them now.

I was just backing him up.

Ahh, I see!

Ok, I've just received a new 5C. I presume I can only transfer the lower section from the new to the fitted one, as on the fitted one the wires connected to the A & B terminals are already crimped?

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Jul-18 16:30:02)

Crimped?

The new style sockets use tool less connectors i.e. lift plastic and insert wire and push down, so no crimping or IDC connectors.

Of course if you are changing the full master socket and you get things wrong and Openreach attend to fix a fault you created then they can charge you for the visit.

I've managed to change it without issue, was quite easy really.

There are still IDC terminations in there, it�s just that the plastic guide located and pushes the wires into place.... negating the need for a Krone tool.

Did you snip of the last couple ml on the wires prior to termination in the new NTE ?

If not done, you will be making a potential HR as the wires reconnect in exactly the same place as before.

I think that was already done when the engineer fitted the original NTE. The A & B wires don't touch at the end.

Just used the phone and it caused no adverse effect.

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Jul-18 18:48:42)

I think he meant snip off the end where the wire had already been in the IDC, so that you are not punching down on the exact same bit of the wire.

It's good practice to cut the cable just below any previous crimping.

I suspect I didn�t make myself clear.

I *think* you have purchased a new 5c and replaced your original 5c, therefore having to reterminate the wires at the back. If so it is good practice to snip a couple of ml off the end of the pair, this way the V metal component will �bite down� on fresh wire rather than onto an already indented spot.

If this isn�t what you have done, I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Yes, that's correct. I didn't snip any of the pair, because I was concerned that I may cause a fault if I did that.

That�s the one.

It may cause a fault by re-crimping used wire.

If you were going to the trouble of replacing the Master Socket I would have gone with an NTE5A + MK3 combo.

The newer NTE5C's are very poorly made.
A decent IDC punch is only a few £

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

If you were going to the trouble of replacing the Master Socket I would have gone with an NTE5A + MK3 combo.

The newer NTE5C's are very poorly made.
A decent IDC punch is only a few £

I'm sure I'll get gasps of disapproval on this forum but an indecent one is only a few pence and, at a pinch, a pair of deftly wielded flathead screwdrivers will do the job. That is probably considered really bad but if you are only doing a couple of wires in a home setup and don't have the right tool to hand...
That said I did get a plastic one many decades ago for various phone line extensions and it lives to this day in my man-tin alongside a roll of solder and a radiator valve bleed key. Things no self-respecting DIYer should be without.

I'm sure I'll get gasps of disapproval on this forum but an indecent one is only a few pence

???????

a pair of deftly wielded flathead screwdrivers will do the job.

(To the strains of the Big Country soundtrack "Oh no they won't. Bodger, I cry, BODGER."

Told you so!

In my dictionary the opposite of decent is indecent, perhaps the problem was the use of the word decent? In any case the plastic tool (which came free with an old phone wiring extension kit I think) is 'adequate'.

In reply to a post by andyhurley:

Told you so!

In my dictionary the opposite of decent is indecent, perhaps the problem was the use of the word decent? In any case the plastic tool (which came free with an old phone wiring extension kit I think) is 'adequate'.

For a single job I suppose it is.
You would never get me using a screw driver / table knife / anything else not designed for the purpose.

Must say I get some satisfaction hearing/feeling my krone tool punch down and snip the ends of the pair. I'm confident that ain't coming out any time soon.
Manipulating a flat head screwdriver to push the cable deep enough while trying not to damage the IDC teeth just doesn't do it for me.