Distribution Point Question

Hi all,

In relation to residential FTTP services, if a DP is upgraded from FTTC provision to FTTP instead, do all the homes served by the DP have to be changed to FTTP by Openreach or can it be selective which ones are enabled for FTTP?

Many Thanks,

Webbs

If FTTP is overlaid in a VDSL2 area the VDSL2 services remain in operation and people can order them still.

For an individual property there can be issues around length of run of fibre from DP to the property, which may attract excess construction charges at install time.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If FTTP is overlaid in a VDSL2 area the VDSL2 services remain in operation and people can order them still.

For an individual property there can be issues around length of run of fibre from DP to the property, which may attract excess construction charges at install time.

Ok thanks, that's interesting. The background to my question relates to an ongoing FTTP Community Partnership, specifically Openreach's build proposal includes a number of homes OR claim are on the same DP as a local school. The homes were not in the submission list from our Community but the school was. From my stand-point it looks like OR might have added these homes to boost numbers and nothing more, though OR claim it's because the homes are on same DP as the school. I'd like to know if their claim is nonsense or not if possible.

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Aug-18 11:25:44)

The short answer is, no.

If provided, the new fibre DP is a separate entity. So will sit alongside the existing copper DP, and only shares a geographic location.

Customers will not be automatically upgraded to FTTP, they will have to order a service from a service provider when they wish to do so.

Cannot say for sure, but usually all those on a DP do get the FTTP option, so is possible

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The short answer is, no.

If provided, the new fibre DP is a separate entity. So will sit alongside the existing copper DP, and only shares a geographic location.

Customers will not be automatically upgraded to FTTP, they will have to order a service from a service provider when they wish to do so.

Thank you. So my suspicions may be correct then? Or at least, the reasoning I'm being given by OR is misplaced if not deliberate.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Cannot say for sure, but usually all those on a DP do get the FTTP option, so is possible

Ok that muddies the waters a bit then. Long story short, the school and these homes are passed in order to reach the large cup-de-sac of homes which the partnership represents. The partnership residents support providing FTTP to the school, but do not support providing the same to a number of homes that elected not to be part of the partnership.

The residents of the Partnership are querying if it is mandatory under the build requirements that these other homes end up effectively freeloading in this instance?

They could install the smallest fibre DP (4 lines) to serve the school.

The question is this, does including the properties on the same DP add to the costs? The price difference between a 4 port DP and 12 port DP should be minimal.

How is this �freeloading� ?
If all served by the same copper DP, then they ought to be able to order FTTP once it�s installed, if they choose.

This doesn�t sound especially �community� orientated if you feel the FTTP should be for a privileged �few�.

Their use of it won�t affect your use of it ... or maybe ask them to chip in too, reduce the initial costs for all.

How is this �freeloading� ?

The OP mentioned that these properties had elected not to join the partnership and so presumably are unwilling or not prepared to contribute to the costs.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

How is this �freeloading� ?
If all served by the same copper DP, then they ought to be able to order FTTP once it�s installed, if they choose.

There are multiple DPs. The DP in questions appears to serve only the school and some extra homes as mentioned.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

maybe ask them to chip in too, reduce the initial costs for all.

Did that, they were not interested, I expect because they are closer to the current FTTC cabinet by a good 100m and already get better speeds.

Personally, I'm prepared to go the FTTPoD route is necessary but the partnership was set up in part so that the local school could benefit from a FTTP solution. Should add that school gets over 30mbps so isn't eligible for BT grants.

> The residents of the Partnership are querying if it is mandatory under the build requirements that these other homes end up effectively freeloading in this instance?

OR own the FTTP network. They are free to expand and deploy as they choose, when it makes economic sense to do so. That includes using *their* network to offer service to other nearby properties.

The CFP users are getting the service they asked for, at the price they agreed to. Why should it then matter who else gets FTTP?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

The CFP users are getting the service they asked for, at the price they agreed to.

No price has been agreed, nor contract signed at this stage. Good job too it could be argued as it looks like the first quote obtained thus far is based off inaccurate info re existing infrastructure in the area.

If you follow the other recent thread then you can easily confirm which properties share a copper DP with the school.

If they do share a copper DP with the school then
OpenReach policy will be to activate all properties that share copper DP's involved.

You need to remember you are only contributing to OpenReach's network, not them to yours. While I would be slightly annoyed at such "freeloaders" the same would apply if a single neighbor in a row of 10 didn't want to contribute.
OpenReach won't skip that 1 property.

Edited by j0hn83 (Wed 15-Aug-18 15:00:25)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

If you follow the other recent thread then you can easily confirm which properties share a copper DP with the school.

If they do share a copper DP with the school then
OpenReach policy will be to activate all properties that share copper DP's involved.

You need to remember you are only contributing to OpenReach's network, not them to yours. While I would be slightly annoyed at such "freeloaders" the same would apply if a single neighbor in a row of 10 didn't want to contribute.
OpenReach won't skip that 1 property.

Do you mean the thread about using browser developer panel to find a dp?

In reply to a post by Webbs:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

If you follow the other recent thread then you can easily confirm which properties share a copper DP with the school.

If they do share a copper DP with the school then
OpenReach policy will be to activate all properties that share copper DP's involved.

You need to remember you are only contributing to OpenReach's network, not them to yours. While I would be slightly annoyed at such "freeloaders" the same would apply if a single neighbor in a row of 10 didn't want to contribute.
OpenReach won't skip that 1 property.

Do you mean the thread about using browser developer panel to find a dp?

Yes, that's the one. I would imagine handy for your circumstances.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Yes, that's the one. I would imagine handy for your circumstances.

Yeah can't work out how to do that. Inspector in Chrome doesn't list anything like what looks like DP.

EDIT - Nevermind, worked it out now...

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Aug-18 17:08:23)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Yes, that's the one. I would imagine handy for your circumstances.

Well, this just got a bit weirder...

I have the landline number for the school. According to the method described in other thread, and when I search via the landline, the school is on DP no. 83. However, if I search for the school's postcode and select the school from the list of premises the result is DP no. 195. There is a pre-school on the same site, and the landline for this is on DP no. 83.

Of the additional residential premises I referred to in my earlier posts, none of those are on DP no. 83. Four premises are on DP no. 196, six are on DP no. 195, five on DP no. 194, and one on DP no. 79.

So, if the landline search was correct (I expect this to be more accurate than the address search) then the school is not on the same DP as any of the additional premises.

Then I would try relay that info to whoever is dealing with your case.

If it's an aerial feed you may be able to tell by eye if they come from the same pole top DP.

I would politely reference the fact that you believe the School to be on DP 83 and not 195.
Also more than half the additional properties aren't even on DP 195.

Then ask the real reason they are included.

They will either remove them or perhaps be more honest as the sharing DP answer obviously doesn't wash.

They may well be able to build their own network how they wish but honesty goes a long way!

edit: they may ask where you got your DP info. I'd just say I had a relative who worked for Openreach they may be less inclined to fob you off with lies in the future

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 16-Aug-18 03:02:18)

Wasn't it agreed on that other thread that the DP quoted is for copper and the fibre DP will be different? So it could be that the current copper goes from multiple DPs to the school and nearby properties but the proposed fibre DPs are the same.

I know that in my case our DP is in our village (a pole outside our house that serves 5 properties) but there is no fibre in the village so the lines all go back to the nearest town which is likely to be where the nearest fibre DP is. It's anyone's guess where they would choose to build a fibre DP if they were to run it to us. In practise unless someone pays them £39k for FTTPoD they won't build a fibre DP at all and we will get Gigaclear towards then end of next year.

Edited by deleted (Thu 16-Aug-18 10:07:55)

I think you may be confusing distribution points and aggregation points.

FTTC cabinets are fed from aggregation points and they supply the PCPs which feed the existing phone line distribution points. FTTP and FTTPoD are also fed to their own dedicated distribution points from those aggregation points. (Potted version).

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 16-Aug-18 11:04:41)

In reply to a post by andyhurley:

....
I know that in my case our DP is in our village (a pole outside our house that serves 5 properties) but there is no fibre in the village so the lines all go back to the nearest town which is likely to be where the nearest fibre DP is. It's anyone's guess where they would choose to build a fibre DP if they were to run it to us. In practise unless someone pays them £39k for FTTPoD they won't build a fibre DP at all and we will get Gigaclear towards then end of next year.

Pretty sure that were Openreach ever to deliver FTTP to you , and unless there are more properties in the locality than the 5 you mentioned, they'd put an 8 port fibre DP on the same pole as the existing copper, and run that back to a splitter node somewhere. They wouldn't run 5 separate cables from a DP far away.

That's never going to happen though as the local residents are not interested.

The business across the road is interested but has ordered a leased line and I was talking to the owner last night. He is mightily annoyed that he ordered a 100mbps line last year, was promised it by June, poles were erected last week which do not go across the field to his property and now he has been told October. He is paying serveral 10s of thousands for this 'priority' installation not to mention £700 a month once it is live. I told him not to worry, I priced up FTTPoD and was quoted £39k so decided to wait for Gigaclear some time next year.

Apologies for getting DP and AN mixed up. I was sure there had been mention of different DPs for fibre and copper on the other thread.

Leased line should carry a 100 Mbps guarantee on bandwidth, i.e. no peak time slow downs and may even include things like diverse routing to avoid things like a single fibre break causing an outage.

Most FTTP while it is still fibre is still different to a leased line type service, the big one is where as a FTTP operator will start to invoke AUP clauses if they see you sustaining 100 Mbps constantly for a couple of weeks, with a leased line they will not blink at all.

Apologies for getting DP and AN mixed up. I was sure there had been mention of different DPs for fibre and copper on the other thread

There was. They are different and will be numbered different.
Generally though a fibre DP will go where an existing copper DP is.
In most cases the same properties that share a copper DP will share a fibre DP.

With FTTPoD it's automatic that properties that share a copper DP are all enabled for FTTP when any of the properties make an order. That's because they will share a fibre DP.

It's extremely likely that your small grouping of rural properties that share a copper DP will share a fibre DP.

In some cases this won't be the case as with everything 1 rule doesn't fit them all.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Most FTTP while it is still fibre is still different to a leased line type service, the big one is where as a FTTP operator will start to invoke AUP clauses if they see you sustaining 100 Mbps constantly for a couple of weeks, with a leased line they will not blink at all.

Good point but probably not relevant for either of us. They are running a conference centre (no big servers and bursty usage as clients come and go), their website is not even hosted on-site so previous tests of response from it are irrelevant. My use will just be for residential use although I do work from home occasionally but my wife and daughter using iPlayer etc will account for more bandwidth.

If the bandwidth guarantees are not important then the equation is this...

1. Leased line, low upfront cost but higher long term cost
2. FTTPoD high upfront cost but costs less per month to run

I did the maths on this and its something like a 5 to 7 year point at which FoD is the cheaper option.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

the big one is where as a FTTP operator will start to invoke AUP clauses if they see you sustaining 100 Mbps constantly for a couple of weeks,

For the 14 months or so I've had FTTPoD installed, I haven't seen speeds drop below 300 Mbps on Fluidone at anytime of the day. Probably been very lucky, but I'm basically getting leased line performance on FTTPoD without the leased line costs - obviously without the SLA of course. My typical usage is anywhere between 500gb to 1TB per month so its high-ish but not ridiculously high. I remember last year Cerberus telling everyone they had a AUP/FUP of 750 GB pm on FTTPoD with a monthly price of £88.50 before backtracking.

100 Mbps constant for 2 weeks is 15 TB of data, and a leased line provider should not blink at that.

Leased lines are usually sold as 100 Mbps sustained with burst to some much higher figure i.e. the 100 is what they budget in their core network for you to use.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

There was. They are different and will be numbered different.
Generally though a fibre DP will go where an existing copper DP is.
In most cases the same properties that share a copper DP will share a fibre DP.

With FTTPoD it's automatic that properties that share a copper DP are all enabled for FTTP when any of the properties make an order. That's because they will share a fibre DP.

It's extremely likely that your small grouping of rural properties that share a copper DP will share a fibre DP.

In some cases this won't be the case as with everything 1 rule doesn't fit them all.

Thanks for explaining that, its something i was questioning also. Hopefully that should be the case for me, even I won't know till september at the very earliest

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The short answer is, no.

If provided, the new fibre DP is a separate entity. So will sit alongside the existing copper DP, and only shares a geographic location.

Customers will not be automatically upgraded to FTTP, they will have to order a service from a service provider when they wish to do so.

Something just occurred to me. Imagine someone is on VDSL2 and are getting 60Mb (Openreach up to 80Mbps) max attainable. If Openreach then installs FTTP I�m not sure what would happen if the customer then wants 80Mbps from another provider would it automatically upgrade them to FTTP or would it leave them on the copper?

Fit the FVA front plate.....

those CP�s who choose not to offer service over Openreach FTTP can use the the copper.

Openreach will install what the broadband provider orders, so providers will need to order a GEA-FTTP service

So no automatic upgrades

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Fit the FVA front plate.....

those CP�s who choose not to offer service over Openreach FTTP can use the the copper.

Sure, but that�s not quite what I mean. Neither is what Andrew said either but he�s right of course.

I�ll use BT as an example. Say if a customer has BT Infinity 2 over copper (Openreach�s up to 80Mb VDSL service), but they only sync at 60Mb. Then Openreach make FTTP available to that house (and to make things easy), off the same pole.

That customer may then want their Infinity 2 to be delivered over FTTP instead as they�d gain an extra 20Mb. It�s the same price for the customer, but how would they transfer over to it with BT?

Say if they want to switch to Zen, rather than stay with BT. Would Zen just take over the VDSL2 service or would they provide service over FTTP? Is there a financial incentive for Zen to just leave that customer on VDSL?

This is where it becomes complicated when you offer the same products over two different technologies.

Good question ...

I suppose the answer can only be supplied by the CP�s.

You�d like to hope the CP would offer it as and when it became available, wishing to provide the best service possible for their punters.

(but we are both too long in the tooth at this to linger too long in la-la land)

In reply to a post by Icaras:

This is where it becomes complicated when you offer the same products over two different technologies.

Not necessarily. As someone who has both a copper & fibre feed, it seems BT Retail's and Zen's ordering systems automatically favour FTTP over FTTC if i attempt to order any service from 40 Mbps to 330 Mbps on their website. I'm guessing technically it's possible to order a FTTC service from BT or Zen but this would probably require an order over the phone and talking to someone who understands the difference between the 2 technologies - more chance of that happening with Zen.

Obviously no such issues ordering a FTTC service with Talktalk/Sky/Vodafone as they don't offer FTTP over the Openreach network.

There is a gotcha in this, with the recent Ofcom price changes if FTTP is overlapping a VDSL2 area then the FTTP is slightly more expensive