Vodafone insisting I use Windows?

I've been getting some significant slow down on an evening, especially single thread downloads.

When I contacted Vodafone (via twitter) I was advised to take a number of screenshots of results from speedtest.net. When I provided them, I was then told they meant thinkbroadband speed tests. Again, I've now done that.

They then queried what device I was using (Chromebook running Chrome OS), wired in via a usb hub. I was told this wasn't acceptable and I needed to use a Windows device in safe mode to ensure there were no applications running in the background. I advised them that surely a Chromebook was an ideal candidate for running these tests, as they aren't even capable of running applications... But that has fallen on deaf ears and I'm just being told I need to borrow a Windows device before they'll escalate the issue.

Problem is, I don't own a Windows device and the only one I could realistically lay my hands on to spend the day taking different results, is my work device, which is severely restricted and I highly doubt would even let me boot into safe mode (although going to check today).

So where do I stand? I'm struggling to believe Vodafone's tech support begins and ends at Windows devices.

Any help appreciated.

It sounds like flannel to me ....

A read of posts on this forum seems to hint at some congestion type issues for some VF users.... so maybe that�s a possible cause.

They are trying to rule out device limitations by insisting on a device type they understand. It is poor support practice but somewhat understandable in a mass market. For all they know the USB hub you are using could be limited to low throughput or the device might be maxing CPU or memory. However, you could see the next stage would be a Windows device of a known specification otherwise the Windows device could have a poor network card or limited memory/processor.

It is hard for ISPs as there are a number of things in the user end of things that could cause speed limitations and they need to try and rule out as many as possible - if BT come out and it turns out the line is fine and it was the device limiting it then the bill for the callout is not cheap.

But if they are insisting on it then it should be clear in their Ts&Cs as it may mean people would not sign up for the service knowing they couldn't do troubleshooting (I personally no longer have a Windows device so wouldn't be able to do that testing if I was asked - although I might be able to borrow one).

Edited by ian72 (Wed 09-Jan-19 08:20:44)

I can see nowhere on their current T&C's or previous T&C's (applicable when I joined) that stipulate support is only provided to Windows devices - I think that's an important point Ian, thanks.

I understand it must be tricky to provide blanket support across all devices. If I was using some obscure Linux Distro I could understand, but Chromebooks are relatively popular and Chrome OS is nothing more than a glorified Chrome browser.

I think I'll approach them again with your final point. I tried my work Windows 10 tablet but as expected as I don't have administrative rights, it's a non-starter.

If you look at the latency graph you can usually tell if something else is using a connection heavily.

In Windows the Task Manager also will show the data rates across the network interface irrespective of admin rights, i.e. if that is zero before and after a speed test then suggests not other apps chewing bandwidth.

Not had a Chromebook, does that have similar visibility of how busy the different interfaces are?

Does sound like classic ISP making you jump through so many loops that they know you will fail and they can say 'your problem'

In reply to a post by Dogdiego:

I tried my work Windows 10 tablet but as expected as I don't have administrative rights, it's a non-starter.

There is zero need for admin rights to run speed tests.The only thing they should ask you to do is run the tests via ethernet as that discounts many issues of wifi.

May i ask what issues you were having and what speed service you are on ?

Perhaps take your chrome book and test it on a known good connection which is much faster than yours, that would prove the equipment was up to the job, it might be enough to convince support that you are getting valid results.

There is zero need for admin rights to run speed tests.The only thing they should ask you to do is run the tests via ethernet as that discounts many issues of wifi.

They're asking me to boot in safe mode with networking and then run the speedtests. Safe mode is something I can't access with my work laptop. Honestly, I think it's just a case of it's not in their script therefore they refuse to help.

Perhaps take your chrome book and test it on a known good connection which is much faster than yours, that would prove the equipment was up to the job, it might be enough to convince support that you are getting valid results.

I genuinely don't think they'd be interested. I've looked on other support forums for other providers and I've not seen it being mentioned once about booting into safe mode with networking. The only consistent direction ISP's give when trying to diagnose issues is to be connected via ethernet.

My sync speed is below that of my minimum guaranteed so for the time being, I'm using that angle. They've referred it to Tech2 who will apparently contact me in 48 hours and when they do I'll have that conversation again about my chromebook.

Edited by deleted (Thu 10-Jan-19 07:24:58)

Although I agree Vodafone are being ridiculous, I fail to see how you cannot start your Windows device in Safe Mode. That is basically a function of the manufacturer�s firmware and it would be odd for the manufacture to modify that for your employers.

Openreach/BT buying tailored firmware from Huawei and ECI for huge bulk purchases is one thing. This is quite another.

Have you googled how to start your device in Safe Mode? It can be tricky to do as it can require very precise timing in pressing the required function key, but I believe it should be possible.

It's a Windows 10 device, so accessing it is slightly different. (holding down shift while restarting)

That said, the option for safe mode with networking is definitely missing. Whether or not it would appear if I was logged in as an administrator I'm unsure but it's not something I'm going to be allowed access to.

The laptops my employer provides can't be booted into safe mode because of the the way the security is set up on them. To access safe mode you need to have a proper IT admin username and password.

In reply to a post by Dogdiego:

So where do I stand? I'm struggling to believe Vodafone's tech support begins and ends at Windows devices.

From other posts it is clear that Vodafone support staff are able to tell how congested their backhaul links are. You could just ask them about the status of your backhaul and whether it is bad enough for them tom release you from your contract.

This is the angle I originally wanted to go at. I suppose it's fortunate (!) that my sync speeds are below minimum otherwise I'd be feeling pretty stuck.

When they do get in touch though, I'll definitely be asking them. Not sure whether they'll be up front and honest enough to state I'm allowed to leave the contract though.

Many, many companies have their own build of Windows, many manufactures will load a build developed by the company on the devices straight from the plant, I've done it with Dell, HP and IBM (Lenovo now). There are so many reasons to install a customised / locked down version of Windows on kit your employees will be used.

Turning off safe mode access is trivial.

Seeing as I'm more that slightly over-ruled, and don't doubt that I'm wrong, I shan't be arguing .

I go into 10 to 20+ major orgs per year for various reasons in the cybersecurity field. The larger organisations (think companies as big as Microsoft):

Standard build would include:
1) Bios lock of some sorts
2) Bitlocker startup key mandatory on first boot - user must setup a personal PIN. The OS will not even launch if the PIN is not entered correct.
3) Bitlocker full disk encryption
4) Group policy "displaybootmenu" set to no - disables safe mode etc. Also no bootable options from CD/USB/Network.
5) Location tracking of some sorts.
6) No local administrator accounts or other default / generic user accounts. All login is over AD. Privileged user accounts are accessible only via a toolset e.g. cyberark, and must be checked-in and checked-out with a ticket raised. All privileged sessions are recorded and data stored in the vault for audit purposes.
7) WiFi selection preference if a corp network SSID is in range. E.g. some users try to use mobile hotspots (especially in US with unlimited mobile data) to avoid corporate filtering. The device will auto connect to corp SSID whenever in range... This was largely implemented to ensure corp policies + mandatory patching could be applied.
8) Two factor authentication to login to the OS, either fingerprint or an app texting a token in addition to your password (increasing since Win 10 built in this functionality).
9) Increasing use of Windows 10 Windows Information Protection (WIP) / other DLP techs to transparently encrypt business vs personal data.
10) Application whitelisting (often via device guard), to enable only X applications to launch. Non-trusted applications require a service now ticket to be raised, with a managers approval, business justification attached and a periodic recertification required (e.g. after 30 days the user will need to re-request to use the app).
11) USB disabled - increasingly common. Some orgs provide bluetooth mice, keyboards etc only rendering USB useless. Where USB devices are required, flash memory e.g. memory sticks, external HDDs are disabled per group policy. A business justification can be presented, but again periodic recertification is required.
12) unnecessary apps + services disabled
13) No CD/Disk drive and no ability to use external drive via USB
14) Baselining: measuring a standard users data throughput, times online (e.g. 9am to 6pm), website usage etc, flagging where throughput is high e.g. 1Gb data transmission to fileshare site e.g. dropbox would raise an incident ticket, likewise logging in at 1AM may raise an incident ticket to be investigated by a line manager, suspicious website usage e.g. browsing job sites combined with emails containing swear words and buzzwords such as "HR" may raise a flag as a potential disgruntled employee who is a "possible malicious threat actor."

More and more common are "thin clients" or entirely locked down end user laptops, with no functionality other than opening a Citrix VDI instance on boot-up. From here a user will connect utilising an AD credential and a two-factor authentication token, into a VDI instance, from where they access corp resources. Data copying between citrix and the base OS is disabled. For accessing email from home, webmail facility is increasingly disabled, with email access only over the Citrix instance.

BYOD is increasingly common, although in major organisations this is effectively "use any machine to access our Citrix VDI" - hence the user ends up on a corp imaged Windows Box of some sorts, and their BYOD is effectively a "thin client" type scenario. No data will ever reside locally on the BYOD.

Overall, in large organisations it really is big brother is watching. Industry standards such as NIST-CSF are increasingly pushing organisations to invest more and more, as the board sets a risk appetite of "risk averse" and the organisation begins huge investment to reach a 3 / 4 on the NIST-CSF maturity scale.

I work for a major consulting firm, and we have had a vast majority of the above since around 2014. Booting a CD/USB/Ethernet, entering a boot menu, entering the bios, and bitlocker PIN to unlock the hard-drive at all has been mandated since 2015. When I press the power button on my work laptop I am greeted with this: https://www.howtogeek.com/262720/how-to-enable-a-pre...

Enter the PW wrong 3 times, you are locked out, and a service desk call is required, alongside some "proof" you are a genuine user. Often HR verification or a manager to approve you are in-fact locked out. Once you type in the bitlocker pin, it is all secureboot etc, so you can only go into the standard OS.

Absence of knowledge of the PIN / ability for service desk to unlock the device, you can do literally nothing. There is not a single key that will do anything.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Fri 11-Jan-19 01:19:22)

Just as way of an update, Tech2 have agreed to send an engineer on Monday to look at why my sync speed is lower than the minimum guaranteed.

I tried to talk to them about congestion/slow single thread downloads but she wasn't interested/she didn't know, so that will have to wait for another time.

If there was a "like" button I'd click it

ukhardy0.

Sound very familiar!

My work laptops were like this from circa 2010 except the USB bar. We had to have bitlocker on the USB sticks as well as we needed to occasionally move data from a secure ( ringfenced) device to the corporate network for analysis. ( if you forgot the USB pin it wiped itself of all data!)

It was a disciplinary offence to connect a machine to both networks (Red and green side) at once..

So Openreach came round this morning. Told me there's no fault on the line and it still sits at 53.1mb, so below the 54mb guaranteed.

I could tell he was mega annoyed at having to come out and waste time at trying to problem solve 0.9mb worth of dropped speed but - that isn't my problem.

I also mentioned to him congestion on an evening in the hope of getting a sympathetic ear - wow - I wish I hadn't. He then gave me this analogy about buying a car that could do 70mph, but when I went on a busy motorway I could only do 20mph... If I took it back to the garage, what would they say?

Speechless.

In reply to a post by Dogdiego:

so below the 54mb guaranteed.

is the guaranteed speed the same as the handback threshold?

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Dogdiego:

so below the 54mb guaranteed.

is the guaranteed speed the same as the handback threshold?

Clean is 55.1
Impacted is 52

OK thanks, for some reason I wrongly assumed the guaranteed speed would be equal/below the impacted speed.

In reply to a post by dect:

OK thanks, for some reason I wrongly assumed the guaranteed speed would be equal/below the impacted speed.

Makes sense I suppose but whenever I put in my details on TalkTalk/Sky/Plusnet etc. it always gives me the 55.1 as the minimum sync speed.

The handback speed is well below "Low" estimates on my line.

VDSL Range A (Clean)
High 62.2
Low 44
15.9
10.2
Handback 39.3

VDSL Range B (Impacted)
High 60.2
Low 40
15.5
9
Handback 34

Here's mine - handback is about 5mb below low, same as yours. I always get the estimate of between 60-80, but don't think I've ever seen anything above 54mb since I've been with Vodafone. I presume that's down to crosstalk at the cabinet and will be the same with whatever ISP I choose. Congestion meanwhile proving to be a whole different ball game.

VDSL Range A (Clean)
High 80
Low 60.3
20
19
Handback 55.1

VDSL Range B (Impacted)
High 80
Low 58.2
20
18.3
Handback 52

Edited by deleted (Mon 14-Jan-19 13:13:46)

I never understood why there are two handback figures. Is there a separate test made to determine whether a line is "clean" or "impacted"?

If not, wouldn't they always just use the lower handback figure - on the assumption that if you're getting a sync speed below the "clean" handback figure, then your line is probably "impacted"?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I never understood why there are two handback figures. Is there a separate test made to determine whether a line is "clean" or "impacted"?

If not, wouldn't they always just use the lower handback figure - on the assumption that if you're getting a sync speed below the "clean" handback figure, then your line is probably "impacted"?

I have never been able to make sense of that either.

I've noticed that both BT and TalkTalk state that if the speed falls significantly below minimum guaranteed that they will investigate... although define significant. Maybe their definition of significant is a figure that is below the impacted range.

Weasel words. Either the speed is guaranteed to meet that level, or it is not.

minus the bios stuff. thats standard windows stuff, its not a new version

So just to update further.

Had to phone complaints team as Tech2 team hadn't phoned me back to update or advise further. Complaints team phoned them while I was on hold and they advised that they wanted to reset the DLM. Told them that the openreach engineer had said he could do that but it would potentially create instability on the line and would reduce speed further anyway.

They were adamant they wanted to do it, so agreed.

Shortly after, sync speed dropped to 52.7 from 53.1.

That change in sync is insignificant and could be lower simply because of the time of day the like synced

It's possible the DLM reset had made no changes at all.
If you are on an ECI cabinet with Low Interleaving then a DLM would not change this.

Could you post any stats the modem gives?

Not sure if these are of any use?


Line status Show Time
Link type Interleaved path
Bit rate
Downstream Upstream
Actual data rate 52698 (Kbps.) 18413 (Kbps.)
Operating data
Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin 6.4 dB 6.2 dB
Loop Attenuation 15.3 dB 18.5 dB
Error counter
Indicator name Downstream Upstream
FEC Corrections 3488 618
CRC Error 567 0
Statistics
Transmitted Frames Received Frames
Frame Counter 32318062 44769431

An impacted line will perform worse than a clean one, it is simple as that; so the ranges will be lower. It makes sense but don't try to read any more into it than what it is.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Its known now by regulars on broadband forum sites that vodafone has backhaul issues.

Its kind of ironic that the same isp is been not very receptive of slow speed reports.

Well... Vodafone have agreed to let me leave my contract FOC. Agreed with the congestion present on the line and also said there was something weird going on with their routing.

Also couldn't explain why the speed had fallen below the minimum but agreed there were no further steps to take and I could leave whenever.

So, ordered myself a Three sim to try.

He then gave me this analogy about buying a car that could do 70mph, but when I went on a busy motorway I could only do 20mph... If I took it back to the garage, what would they say?

But you're not buying the car, you're paying a toll to use the road.

You're renting the slip road from Openreach, but the motorway from Vodafone.

Fortunately, the slip road connects to several different motorways, so you can choose a different one.

Actually you are paying for a contract with Vodafone that includes the slip road and the motorway - they just happen to be getting the slip road from someone else. You then try and take your car down the roads they have provided that they gave a speed expectation on but because they could only be bothered to install 1 lane on the motorway it is heavily congested and you can only do 20Mph - whereas a different supplier has a 4 lane motorway that runs just fine and you can do 70Mph.