Do you think everyone will be switched to the fibre cabs?

Do you think there will ever come a time where ADSL subscribers are all connected up to the FTTC cabs? Obviously, people on ADSL at present are paying for an upto 11Mb service (or whatever their providers average ADSL speeds are). But ADSL supports upto 24Mb/1.3Mb (24Mb/2.5Mb for Annex M) yet very few get anywhere near this.

Do you think that maybe in the coming years, especially once the 10Mb USO comes in, that rather than subscribe to either an ADSL or fibre based service, that everyone will be connected to the same infrastructure but only get the speeds they actually subscribe for? This would mean that if one person living opposite the exchange orders the ADSL speed package, and one person 2 miles away also orders the ADSL speed package, then they will both get pretty much the same speeds as the distance no longer factors into it

No, never.

In some areas this would require 3 or 4 FTTC cabinets for a single PCP.

This would mean that if one person living opposite the exchange orders the ADSL speed package, and one person 2 miles away also orders the ADSL speed package, then they will both get pretty much the same speeds as the distance no longer factors into it
©

I think you misunderstand how the technology works.
There can never be a situation where everyone who orders ADSL will get the same speed.
It's entirely distance related.

Even if they ran it from FTTC cabinets there are still people who live miles from the nearest cabinet.

Post deleted by Chippy_Tea_

In reply to a post by MarkA67:

Do you think there will ever come a time where ADSL subscribers are all connected up to the FTTC cabs? Obviously, people on ADSL at present are paying for an upto 11Mb service (or whatever their providers average ADSL speeds are). But ADSL supports upto 24Mb/1.3Mb (24Mb/2.5Mb for Annex M) yet very few get anywhere near this.

One problem is that it would require the ISPs with their own ADSL equipment to agree to discontinue its use.

Do you think that maybe in the coming years, especially once the 10Mb USO comes in, that rather than subscribe to either an ADSL or fibre based service, that everyone will be connected to the same infrastructure but only get the speeds they actually subscribe for? This would mean that if one person living opposite the exchange orders the ADSL speed package, and one person 2 miles away also orders the ADSL speed package, then they will both get pretty much the same speeds as the distance no longer factors into it

FTTP customers can connect at the speed they order. DSL customers will always suffer from the laws of physics which lead to a detioration of signal quality the longer the line.

In reply to a post by MarkA67:

Obviously, people on ADSL at present are paying for an upto 11Mb service (or whatever their providers average ADSL speeds are).

Irrespective of provider, those on an ADSL2+ service will be on an up to 24 Mb/s service, NOT up to 11 Mbps or whatever the ISP's marketing blurb. The fact that many people don't get the full 24 Mb/s is down to the fact that not everyone lives next to an exchange and hence ISPs have no control over where people live.

In reply to a post by MarkA67:

But ADSL supports upto 24Mb/1.3Mb (24Mb/2.5Mb for Annex M) yet very few get anywhere near this.

Again, sync rates on ADSL2+ depend on distance to exchange. Re: ADSL2+ Annex M, you can get such services, they are mainly sold by Business CPs such as TalkTalk Business, BT Business etc

Edited by deleted (Sat 12-Jan-19 20:41:03)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

No, never.

In some areas this would require 3 or 4 FTTC cabinets for a single PCP.

This would mean that if one person living opposite the exchange orders the ADSL speed package, and one person 2 miles away also orders the ADSL speed package, then they will both get pretty much the same speeds as the distance no longer factors into it
©

I think you misunderstand how the technology works.
There can never be a situation where everyone who orders ADSL will get the same speed.
It's entirely distance related.

Even if they ran it from FTTC cabinets there are still people who live miles from the nearest cabinet.

No, I think you've misunderstood what the OP is asking. I think they suggesting if it were to happen and both customers were allowed to remain on the same 'Up to 24Mb/s' package as they are now then both of them would see a speed of 24Mb/s. And they are right. As to whether such a package would be allowed to exist that's another matter.

However what I think is a more likely scenario is that if/when all copper line based services are withdrawn legacy packages will be too. I'd assume that those on an 'up to 24Mb/s' would get a free upgrade to a 50Mb/s service. Or, considering how far away this scenario is, a 100Mb/s service.

Edited by Andrue (Sat 12-Jan-19 18:14:30)

In what way are they right?

Are you suggesting everyone on FTTC gets 24Mb/s or if everyone was served by ADSL2+ from an FTTC cabinet they would get 24Mb/s?

Neither is true.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In what way are they right?

Are you suggesting everyone on FTTC gets 24Mb/s or if everyone was served by ADSL2+ from an FTTC cabinet they would get 24Mb/s?

Neither is true.

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm talking about what might happen to ADSL2+ hold-outs if/when they are forced onto a technology that can offer higher speeds. That's never going to happen with FTTC but will eventually happen with FTTP.

As I wrote, I suspect the answer is that they are forced onto a better package for free, but if not then, yes, they could all suddenly get 24Mb/s.

Edited by Andrue (Sat 12-Jan-19 20:40:55)

Ultimately all ADSL will be turned off. Perhaps as early as 2025 when IP comes in. Its all int he roadmaps for both OR and Ofcom its just a matter of time.

In reply to a post by MarkA67:

Do you think there will ever come a time where ADSL subscribers are all connected up to the FTTC cabs? Obviously, people on ADSL at present are paying for an upto 11Mb service (or whatever their providers average ADSL speeds are). But ADSL supports upto 24Mb/1.3Mb (24Mb/2.5Mb for Annex M) yet very few get anywhere near this.

I don't know how many are left on adsl services. Vdsl2 cabs do have a 18/2 service which is meant to cover those who are on adsl and do not want 40mbits.

But you are talking about the future. I can only see G.fast and full fibre being the long term from openreach. It would be stupid long term to support a mixture of copper and fibre last mile.

How we get there is another matter

In reply to a post by MarkA67:

Do you think that maybe in the coming years, especially once the 10Mb USO comes in, that rather than subscribe to either an ADSL or fibre based service, that everyone will be connected to the same infrastructure but only get the speeds they actually subscribe for? This would mean that if one person living opposite the exchange orders the ADSL speed package, and one person 2 miles away also orders the ADSL speed package, then they will both get pretty much the same speeds as the distance no longer factors into it

The 10Mbits uso, is something that in many ways serves (long term) no purpose. It does right now, in that it resolves service providers to fix poor broadband areas. But just how many are left under 10mbits.

Full fibre allows 30/60/100/250mbit services to be just that - as advertised and delivered to the end point (minus contention and congestion) (and yes i know gpon and xgpon have inbuilt contention).

The future is not adsl or vdsl though. And g.fast will be a legacy product within 5 to 7 years

The 18/2 product on FTTC is gone and has been for a while.
It only remained on the Chelsea exchange due to its unique circumstances but I think it has been withdrawn from sale there too.

There may still be customers on the product who signed up before it was removed but there won't be very many.

USO 600k (2020) of which ~100k are over the cost cap

Edited by deleted (Sun 13-Jan-19 12:48:17)

In reply to a post by Taras:

But you are talking about the future. I can only see G.fast and full fibre being the long term from openreach. It would be stupid long term to support a mixture of copper and fibre last mile.
...
The future is not adsl or vdsl though. And g.fast will be a legacy product within 5 to 7 years

G.Fast is copper last mile few hundred metres, and 5-7 years isn't long-term .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Taras:

But you are talking about the future. I can only see G.fast and full fibre being the long term from openreach. It would be stupid long term to support a mixture of copper and fibre last mile.
...
The future is not adsl or vdsl though. And g.fast will be a legacy product within 5 to 7 years

G.Fast is copper last mile few hundred metres, and 5-7 years isn't long-term .

GFast ~350m vdsl2 ~2000m adsl ~5500m

Ahh i didn't realise that the 18/2 product died a very short death. My bad

Hi Taras

Some people are stuck on ADSL because although their cabinet may be VDSL/G.fast enabled its just too far away from their property, meaning they get better speeds from ADSL than they would from VDSL/G.fast

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The 18/2 product on FTTC is gone and has been for a while.
It only remained on the Chelsea exchange due to its unique circumstances but I think it has been withdrawn from sale there too.

There may still be customers on the product who signed up before it was removed but there won't be very many.

11) Not available for new supply

From the current Openreach price list. It is still listed as an in-use product, at £48pa since 1 August 2018.

If the price was comparable, I'm not sure why anyone would want to stick with copper based connections.

I stuck with ADSL as long as I did because FTTP where I am was initially very expensive both from a monthly charge point of view but also the installation.

My hand was forced eventually because my work required me to be able to to work from home in the event of bad weather, by that time the cost was comparanle to what I was paying for line rental to support ADSL and the ADSL itself so it made sense.

Think there needs to be serious thought before copper is ditched for voice services though because of their use in emergency situations, particularly for the vulnerable such as the elderly who may neither have nor want Internet service.

A fibre ONT has a battery backup but this isn't comparable to an exchange supported by a UPS and diesel generator providing a line voltage to drive a basic corded phone.

In reply to a post by techguy:

Think there needs to be serious thought before copper is ditched for voice services though because of their use in emergency situations, particularly for the vulnerable such as the elderly who may neither have nor want Internet service.

A fibre ONT has a battery backup but this isn't comparable to an exchange supported by a UPS and diesel generator providing a line voltage to drive a basic corded phone.

We're many years away though its not technically hard to do. German/Swiss have or are already doing it and without battery backup being provided to users. This being the UK we'll take twice as long and indulging every special interest groups gripes will ensure it costs twice as much.

2025 is target date

Well said.

give me 500m more, and i've have been in the same situation. Have you checked your local county council Broadband scheme? Many CC's like mine are filling in the "under 25mbits footprint" with fttp.

I would say my cab is in a stupid place because most of the properties are 800m to 1km away but lets not go into that corporate can of worms. But then my post code is gonna get fttp - we are in the duct cleared stage - waiting for the pole kit to arrive (one fibre cable on one copper dp) is the most actual fibre i've seen around my hamlet.

so don't get me wrong Dect, many are in the same situation

That's excellent news about FTTP coming to you soon, the one thing that seems to unite us all here is the good news that another person is getting FTTP.

OR is ramping up FTTP from late last year and through this year. While G.Fast is also going on that will peak and then it will be focussed more on fttp

In reply to a post by Taras:

Ahh i didn't realise that the 18/2 product died a very short death. My bad

I only ever saw it once out in the wild. This was for a customer that was very close to the cabinet too. They hadn�t ordered it but were switched to it by their ISP, I think due to faults they�d been having. Was a few years ago though.