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Standard User morgard
(newbie) Tue 05-Mar-19 19:42:08
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BTnet and DrayTek router help


[link to this post]
 
Hi everyone,

I’ve not visited these forums before, but they seem extensive, very active, and full of helpful people. I hope that I’m posting in the right place, but if not, please can someone direct me to a more appropriate place for help with this – thanks.

I’m asking for help here since I (and the small business I’m helping) have been perhaps caught out by the sales people at BT Local Business regarding the advantages of a BTnet dedicated line, without us (and probably even them) being aware of the complexities of the actual set-up. We’ve been running off of a standard BT Business Hub for some months whilst other stuff has been going on, but now we need to switch across to the BTnet line.

Anyway, the question, as simply as I can put it: How do I set up a new DrayTek Vigor 2862ac router/firewall with a new BTnet fixed-IP-address line, instead of the BT-supplied Cisco 4321 router? The ONLY info provided by BT for this was:

IPV4 Network Address : xxx.xxx.xxx.128
IPV4 Network Mask : 255.255.255.248
IPV4 BTnet NTE Router LAN Address : xxx.xxx.xxx.129
DSN servers: ns3.bt.net – 194.72.6.57, ns4.bt.net – 194.73.82.242

Beyond this, no instructions, manuals, web links, nothing. I’m not expecting BT to provide me with DrayTek info, but some info for configuring the Cisco router would have been nice – although I am (now!) well aware that this is an enterprise device, so would normally be set up by a network specialist. I was told that the Cisco router, as well as being overly-complex for our rather simple requirements (4 computers for admin staff, 2 printers, CCTV, card payment machines for use in a downstairs restaurant, BT CloudVoice system, etc.), also comes WITHOUT a firewall, so was therefore advised to source a DrayTek instead as a reasonably-priced but powerful (and not-too-complex!) alternative to the Cisco device.

To be clear here, I am not an IT novice. (To give you an idea of my knowledge level, if anyone here ever listens to the weekly Security Now podcast with Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte, I understand most of it!) I’ve spent many years helping residential and small business people with computer-related issues, and know a fair bit about small networks, but this sort of set-up is outside of my normal experience. I guess my question here is can I set this up myself relatively easily and securely, without calling in the services of a networking expert – for which there is no budget? It is already too late to backtrack on the BTnet order (5-year contracts signed, etc.), so any guidance at all here would be much appreciated.

It was always too much to expect a live connection without doing any configuring, as would be the case in a house or small business with ADSL/VDSL/cable with a dynamically-assigned-by-the-ISP IP address. I’ve tried, out of interest, plugging the DrayTek into the Cisco router (not a solution anyway, because the Cisco box is going to be returned soon to BT) which is in turn plugged into the BT-supplied ADVA box on the wall, and also plugging the DrayTek directly into the ADVA box, neither of which gave a live connection, of course. The BTnet line has a fixed IP address, and I know that settings have to be manually entered into whatever networking device(s) are to be used our end.

So, is anyone here able to answer a few questions about configuring the DrayTek? i.e. which settings to put where. I’ve updated the firmware in the DrayTek to the latest, and located the WAN -> Internet Access -> WAN 2 -> ‘Static or Dynamic IP’ page, which I’m sure is the right page, but it’s not clear to me what to put where. I’m guessing that ‘Obtain an IP address automatically’ is not correct! I’ve already tried putting the above 2 IP addresses and subnet mask into the ‘Specify an IP address’ IP Address / Subnet Mask / Gateway IP Address fields (not sure which way wound to put the IP addresses), and entered the 2 DNS server addresses BT specify, but no connection. Am I on the right track here? Perhaps I need to change some of the other settings on this page, which are:

WAN Connection Detection (currently Mode = ARP Detect)
MTU (currently = 1492)
Keep WAN Connection (currently ‘Enable PING to keep alive’ is not enabled)
TTL (currently ‘Change the TTL value’ is ticked)
RIP Routing (currently not ticked)
Bridge Mode (currently neither ‘Enable Bridge Mode’ nor ‘Enable Full Bridge Mode’ are ticked)
MAC Address (currently = Default MAC Address)

Apologies for the length of this post. I’m hoping that someone here can point me in the right direction, so many thanks in advance.


Steve.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Mar-19 21:15:23
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
So, how is the new service being delivered ?

ADSL, VDSL, FTTP, EFM ... ?

Standard User morgard
(newbie) Tue 05-Mar-19 21:31:47
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your reply, Zarjaz.

Not sure of the answer to that. On the confirmation emails, BT list the service as:

Product: BTNet 21CN HE Fibre - 100mb

Is that helpful?


Steve.


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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Mar-19 22:07:08
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
So it sounds like a bespoke fibre based product.

Surely BT provided equipment which has the fibre terminating into, this would then have, at a guess, an Ethernet port as an out put ...

Standard User candlerb
(committed) Tue 05-Mar-19 22:28:33
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Sounds like a leased line service. The Cisco could be a managed router, which is part of the service. If that's the case, then you're not supposed to remove it. They may be remotely monitoring it to check the line.

also comes WITHOUT a firewall, so was therefore advised to source a DrayTek instead


Advised by whom? It's not great advice to get rid of the router in a managed service. (And if you are happy to take their advice, then you can also ask them how to replace the router)

But there is a simple answer. You can plug your new firewall/router into the LAN port of the Cisco and use one of the public IP addresses they have given you: that is, configure an IP between xxx.xxx.xxx.130 and xxx.xxx.xxx.134 as the firewall's WAN IP, and point its default gateway at xxx.xxx.xxx.129. You then use private IPs behind the firewall and let it NAT.
Standard User andew
(member) Tue 05-Mar-19 22:28:40
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
Hi

The last time i setup one of these connections was about a year ago. We were told the cisco router had to be connected as its a managed service. We ended up connecting a network lead from the cisco to the WAN2 port on the draytek, ( it would appear that the cisco is just a very expensive bridge).

On the draytek we configured the internet connection using the WAN2 connection using the static/dynamic ip option and specified the ip address, subnet mast, gateway, dns addresses and MTU stated in an email. After a restart the connection came up straight away.

Hope that helps

Andrew
Standard User candlerb
(committed) Wed 06-Mar-19 08:55:04
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: andew] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andew:
it would appear that the cisco is just a very expensive bridge


To be accurate, the Cisco is a very expensive router. It has a WAN interface which goes onto the leased line, and a block of IP addresses on the LAN side, and it forwards IP datagrams between the two. If you do a traceroute you'll see the Cisco as an IP hop.

The way you describe connecting the Draytek is correct.

In this business service, they're getting a block of 8 IP addresses routed to them, although only 5 are usable by the customer (in this cases, addresses .130 to .134 inclusive)

That means five separate devices can be connected each with full IP connectivity. That could be one firewall plus four servers outside the firewall; or it could be five separate firewalls, useful if there are several companies in the building which are sharing the same leased line.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 06-Mar-19 09:20:48
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
The normal would be to leave the managed device in place, then connect an Ethernet router (e.g. the Draytek) and set up the WAN port to use one of the static IP addresses and then use the NAT and firewall features of the Draytek for the day to day office stuff.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 17:42:05
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Hi Zarjaz,

I don't believe there's anything special about this, it's just a standard BTnet installation as far as I know. As candlerb says in the next post after yours, 'leased line service' is an expression that I remember hearing on more than one occasion from the sales people.

To be clear here, BT and OpenReach provided the following during the installation:
- Cabling into the building, that goes into...
- A box on the wall labelled 'ADVA'.
- The Cisco router, and a network cable back to the ADVA box.

Beyond those physical components, and the tech details I listed above, nothing. I was advised by a 'tech' person in BT Local Business to REPLACE the Cisco router with a more standard one that I can manage easily myself, and DrayTek was recommended. I thought I could more easily handle a DrayTek, which has an integrated firewall, and is more like what I'm used to.

Oh, and yes, there's an ethernet port on both the ADVA and Cisco box that I can plug the DrayTek into. It's not the plugging-in I need help with, it's the configuring.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:02:57
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
Hi candlerb,

The advice I've been receiving has been from BT Local Business (a sales person / account manager, and one of her 'techie' colleagues). I have a feeling that I should have come to this forum first before following their advice, but it's a little late, I think.

Not fully understanding this set-up, I expressed concern after I was told that the Cisco box came without a firewall. I was told that I could/should buy a standalone firewall, but this is only a small business, and I know that a business firewall box can cost a lot of money, particularly in ongoing subscription costs. They advised me instead to REPLACE the Cisco router with a DrayTek router (with integrated firewall), which is therefore the route I have headed. In fact, we've converted this line to 'Wires only', to achieve this. At no point was I told that I could simply plug a device like this DrayTek into the Cisco box, and set it up.

So, I believe that I now MUST remove the Cisco box from this set-up (although I still have it in place for now), and put the DrayTek in its place.

Is this possible to do securely, and am I on the right lines with my original post?

Oh, and I'm certain that if we're using our own equipment, then BT won't help with this at all. You see my predicament!

Depending on responses to this message, I might ask questions about what settings go where next, WITHOUT the Cisco - thanks.


Steve.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:10:58
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: andew] [link to this post]
 
Hi Andrew, and thanks for the reply.

I did try some time ago what you have suggested, but couldn't get it to work. I was originally advised by a techie in BT Local Business to REPLACE the Cisco router with a DrayTek router (with integrated firewall), so we've converted this line to 'Wires only'. This may not have been great advice, but I think it's too late now.

So, I believe that I now MUST remove the Cisco box from this set-up, and configure the DrayTek accordingly. I'm hoping that (a) this is possible, and (b) someone here can guide me with what settings to put where in the DrayTek.

Thanks.

Steve.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:16:08
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
I’ve tried, out of interest, plugging the DrayTek into the Cisco router (not a solution anyway, because the Cisco box is going to be returned soon to BT) which is in turn plugged into the BT-supplied ADVA box on the wall, and also plugging the DrayTek directly into the ADVA box, neither of which gave a live connection, of course.
Please take a close look at the Adva device and report back with model or part numbers. Once that has been identified, it may help the "wise ones" deduce the type of service provided. Perhaps you could take one or more photographs of it and then make them available to view via one the the image hosting sites?

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:18:02
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your reply, MrSaffron!

Sadly, I was never told that. I've been led along the route of converting this line to 'Wires only', and REPLACING the Cisco router with the DrayTek router (with integrated firewall). I'm hoping that this is possible to do?


Steve.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:26:46
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Hi burakkucat,

The ADVA box is labelled FSP150CP.

I hope that helps.


Steve.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:38:09
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
So the RJ45 (Access) port on the ADVA is what you would plug the Draytek into I believe and as you've detailed you have a block of IP addresses

https://www.draytek.co.uk/archive/kb_vigor_multinat....

A Multi-nat setup on the Draytek is probably the way to go,

If that page is just a random set of words as far as you are concerned then employing someone who has experience with the Draytek and can explain what you want to do is probably the best way forward.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Wed 06-Mar-19 18:48:57
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
That is useful to know. So the service you are currently receiving is via the Openreach Ethernet Access Direct (EAD) product.

Looking at the FSP150CP, from left to right, you should see two sockets for the dual mains supply, two columns of three LEDs, a Management Serial interface, a 8P8C socket & a SFP socket (both under the "Access" heading) and two further SFP sockets, along with a single column of two LEDs, (all under the "Network" heading).

I expect the existing Cisco router to be connected to the 8P8C socket ("Access") with an Ethernet patch lead. That is the socket to which your new Draytek router should be connected.

I have no experience of the Draytek device, so am unable to help with that. However it would just be a case of configuring it with the details you have been given (as shown in your opening post). I'm sure there will be someone who can assist you with that task. wink
Standard User candlerb
(committed) Wed 06-Mar-19 19:30:11
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
I've been led along the route of converting this line to 'Wires only', and REPLACING the Cisco router with the DrayTek router (with integrated firewall). I'm hoping that this is possible to do?


Like I said, you were advised wrongly. Not every sales droid at BT knows what they're talking about.

Plug the Draytek *into* the Cisco. Configure a static IP address and default route on the Draytek in the way I've said. Job done.

If you replace the Cisco you'll need a whole load of extra config from BT (for example, the point-to-point link addresses for the WAN link). If you're not an IP expert you really don't want to attempt this. (If I were to do it, I'd have to break into the Cisco to retrieve its configuration)
Standard User solchain
(regular) Wed 06-Mar-19 19:37:02
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
Cant work out from previous posts if you have sorted it, and Its been a while since I have done one, I seem to remember that we had to leave the Cisco in place, this covers how I remember it being and we always got it working..

http://mindofdes.blogspot.com/2015/04/help-setting-u...

Basically says..

Firstly, you will need a few things:

IPv4 Network Address (You should have been sent this in advance, if not ask the engineer installing)
IPv4 Network Mask (same as above)
Something to take care of NAT and act as a firewall (we used a Draytek Vigor 2830)

To work out your range of external IPs, you can use your network address and mask with a subnet calculator (such as http://www.subnet-calculator.com/)

The following has been created using the following IP addresses - you will need to enter your own instead for this to work! Be sure to change them and use the subnet calculator above if you need your entire range.

If our Network address is: 81.14.198.192 and our mask is 255.255.255.248 then our range is: 81.14.198.193 - 81.14.198.198 (to work this out, enter the address and select the mask on the calculator - the bottom then gives you the range)

In this instance, BT put their Gateway device on 81.14.198.193 (the first available IP from the available range) therefore you have 194 to 198 as external IP addresses to use.

So how do you get your kit working?

Get your firewall/router and plug a cable from the GE 0/1 port on the Cisco into the "WAN" port on your router. Ensure that this is a WAN port that takes a network cable and not a telephone one, as this is for ADSL or VDSL.

Now login to your own router, and set it a static IP address for Internet Access. The routers IP can be any of the addresses from 81.14.198.194 to 81.14.198.198. Enter the subnet address as: 255.255.255.248 and the Gateway address as 81.14.198.193.

And that should be it - there are a lot more things that can be done but these are the basics to get things working.
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Wed 06-Mar-19 19:42:41
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
Hi burakkucat,

The ADVA box is labelled FSP150CP.

I hope that helps.

Steve.


Yes, what you have there is the Openreach termination unit - there will be an SFP (fibre) uplink going to the Openreach network via a fibre tray most likely, and then an Ethernet port - marked "Access"

that should go to the WAN port of the Cisco - because if you don't use the Cisco you can expect zero support from BT when you have a problem.

Now it depends how that cisco was configured - if it's set as a wan router, then you'd connect the DrayTek via the wan ethernet port it has to a port on the cisco, give it an IP address of say .130 from your range, subnet 255.255.255.248, the gateway as .129 (the Cisco), and the DNS to whatever bt wanted you to use and you'll be sorted.

If they've set it as a LAN router, then the odds are you'll get a local network IP address via DHCP - if so you need to ask them to change it to just have your routed subnet - otherwise you're going to end up in hell.

However this aside I suspect the odds are you were over-sold as BT Local business are currently heavily pushing even small firms into taking BTnet leased lines, often telling you ISDN is no more and that it's essentially the only option which frankly - in the vast majority of small business cases - is untrue. Most small businesses would be perfectly fine with FTTC or similar, at a significantly lower cost. I've recently seen them pretty much bully a company with 3 people into a BTnet 100 line, for reasons nobody who doesn't practice ripping people off can accept is reasonable.

also - given that this is a dedicated service that BT Local Business sold you, perhaps they should provide the support for this - after all BT and whichever 3rd party company is "BT Local business" in your area is take the money!
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 19:43:18
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes, that port on the ADVA is the one that the cable from the Cisco has been plugged into. I've been unplugging the end of this cable from the Cisco router, and instead plugging it into the DrayTek for testing.

Thanks for the link, which I've looked at. I've never needed to use MultiNAT before, although that page gives a good overview. However, I'm wondering if this is overkill for our needs.

This is a small business, with no fancy equipment, no need for hosting web servers, nothing beyond the basics. As I see it, we only actually need just one IP address anyway, and for everything to sit safely (via NAT) behind the DrayTek on that.

For my understanding, am I right in thinking that the 2 IP addresses and 255.255.255.248 subnet mask I listed earlier mean we've been allocated 8 IP addresses:

xxx.xxx.xxx.128, xxx.xxx.xxx.129, xxx.xxx.xxx.130, xxx.xxx.xxx.131, xxx.xxx.xxx.132, xxx.xxx.xxx.133, xxx.xxx.xxx.134, xxx.xxx.xxx.135.

If I'm correct so far, then for the set-up WITH the Cisco, would xxx.xxx.xxx.128 have been our 'main' address, and xxx.xxx.xxx.129 for the Cisco box? If so, without the Cisco box present, then how does that affect things? Does the DrayTek become xxx.xxx.xxx.129, or is that what all the configuration settings are for? Apologies here, I'm used to standard household / small business routers NOT on fixed IP lines. I do understand a lot of the networking stuff (DHCP, static IP addresses within a small network, etc.), just not been exposed to this sort of slightly more complex set-up before.

Anyway, can I not just set-up the DrayTek to use just one of those above, leaving the others unused? I'm thinking simple is best here?!

Thanks.
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Wed 06-Mar-19 19:47:37
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
Yes, that port on the ADVA is the one that the cable from the Cisco has been plugged into. I've been unplugging the end of this cable from the Cisco router, and instead plugging it into the DrayTek for testing.


Leave the Cisco connected - BT expect it as it's a managed router as part of the service - remove it and good luck getting any support at all.

Thanks for the link, which I've looked at. I've never needed to use MultiNAT before, although that page gives a good overview. However, I'm wondering if this is overkill for our needs.


You don't need Multi-NAT (personally I'd never have bought a Draytek as they're overpriced, counter-intuitive junk IMHO) but anyhow, it will work with it.

This is a small business, with no fancy equipment, no need for hosting web servers, nothing beyond the basics. As I see it, we only actually need just one IP address anyway, and for everything to sit safely (via NAT) behind the DrayTek on that.


And that's fine - out of the box, the DrayTek just needs the WAN interface configuring - if the cisco is configured how I expect - make the DrayTek WAN as per my other post and I suspect you'll be done. And frankly, I doubt you needed a BTnet line - but it's a bit late now.

For my understanding, am I right in thinking that the 2 IP addresses and 255.255.255.248 subnet mask I listed earlier mean we've been allocated 8 IP addresses:

xxx.xxx.xxx.128, xxx.xxx.xxx.129, xxx.xxx.xxx.130, xxx.xxx.xxx.131, xxx.xxx.xxx.132, xxx.xxx.xxx.133, xxx.xxx.xxx.134, xxx.xxx.xxx.135.


Correct - 128 is the network address, 129 is the Cisco, so use 130 for the DrayTek for ease (but it could be any remaining one except the last one which is Broadcast)
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-19 20:08:45
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
Hi therioman, and everyone else that has replied. Thank you, this is all very helpful.

I DEFINITELY don't want to be left in a situation where BT will not assist when issues arise. The more I read of all your messages, the more sure I am that I, and the business owner, have been pushed along this more expensive BTnet route, when a cheaper, simpler set-up would have been best. It's too late to go back, though, so I'm sure we're stuck with this BTnet service, one way or the other.

The consensus here is clearly that I need to use the Cisco router WITH the DrayTek that I have. As I mentioned previously, I was led along the route (clearly by BT Local Business people that don't really understand any of this) of changing this to a 'Wires only' (slightly cheaper) service, meaning that the Cisco router MUST be returned to BT. So tomorrow, I will investigate if it is possible to reverse this decision, so that we go back to the original standard BTnet package, INCLUDING the Cisco router, and then proceed along the lines that several of you here have explained with configuring the DrayTek WITH the Cisco.

If I get stuck with any of this, I may be back.

Again, many thanks to you all for your help, I very much appreciate it.


Steve.
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Wed 06-Mar-19 20:50:38
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
I DEFINITELY don't want to be left in a situation where BT will not assist when issues arise. The more I read of all your messages, the more sure I am that I, and the business owner, have been pushed along this more expensive BTnet route, when a cheaper, simpler set-up would have been best. It's too late to go back, though, so I'm sure we're stuck with this BTnet service, one way or the other.


You might have a route via mis-selling if you fancy fighting it (we are going to be talking hundreds per month - so you should perhaps take legal advice) - I have considerable experience of seeing the tactics of BT Local Business in hard selling and mis-selling - but as always, few are prepared to fight them, but that's an aside.

The consensus here is clearly that I need to use the Cisco router WITH the DrayTek that I have.


...if it's provided as part of it, they'll use it as an excuse not to support you if you do not...

BUT...

As I mentioned previously, I was led along the route (clearly by BT Local Business people that don't really understand any of this) of changing this to a 'Wires only' (slightly cheaper) service, meaning that the Cisco router MUST be returned to BT.


If you can save a few quid you do not NEED that Cisco - at all. It is entirely possible to configure your service without one - for what it's worth I have Openreach provided Fibre Ethernet services - eg a Leased Line, just not one from BT, and for the 100 Meg lines I have the same Avada equipment - you'd then connect the Draytek to it, give it the appropriate IP addresses and gateways and you'll be fine.

There does need to be a change because your gateway address (without the Cisco) would need to be an interface at the other end of your BTnet line - so you'd need them to change your setup (whether in BTnet world that means giving you a new range or they can reconfigure that one I have no idea - it's down to how they do things) - but from a "can it be done" perspective - YES - absolutely.

You almost certainly CANNOT bypass the Cisco as it stands without the service being reconfigured to work differently (again this ultimately depends what configuration they put in).

If you happen to be in Devon/Cornwall area and the BT Local Business lot you're dealing with are Coastal Communications then you have all of my sympathy.
Standard User candlerb
(committed) Wed 06-Mar-19 21:26:28
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
For my understanding, am I right in thinking that the 2 IP addresses and 255.255.255.248 subnet mask I listed earlier mean we've been allocated 8 IP addresses:

xxx.xxx.xxx.128, xxx.xxx.xxx.129, xxx.xxx.xxx.130, xxx.xxx.xxx.131, xxx.xxx.xxx.132, xxx.xxx.xxx.133, xxx.xxx.xxx.134, xxx.xxx.xxx.135.


Right so far, but...

In reply to a post by morgard:
If I'm correct so far, then for the set-up WITH the Cisco, would xxx.xxx.xxx.128 have been our 'main' address


No. Due to the way IP works:

* the first address (.128) is unusable. (It's the network address)
* the next address (.129) is usable, but BT have already given it to to the Cisco router.
* the next five addresses (.130 to .134) are usable by you.
* the last address (.135) is unusable. (It's the broadcast address)

So the Draytek can be configured with any of .130 to .134, and its default gateway needs to point to .129.
Standard User Snake
(experienced) Wed 06-Mar-19 21:28:36
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
Leave the Cisco connected, assuming it is connected via an SFP

Connect your Draytek to the Cisco via RJ45 cable in one of the GE00/01 ports.

Then connect to you Draytek on the WAN2 (P5)

configure you Draytek with the network settings you were given (under WAN goto static/Dynamic IP)

Use these in the specify address:

IPV4 Network Address : xxx.xxx.xxx.128
IPV4 Network Mask : 255.255.255.248


This is your gateway
IPV4 BTnet NTE Router LAN Address : xxx.xxx.xxx.129
DNS servers: ns3.bt.net – 194.72.6.57, ns4.bt.net – 194.73.82.242


You should be good to go.

The cisco is managed by BT and you dont need to worry about it. The Internet is being terminated on your draytek which is acting as your firewall.

Hope this helps.

Cerberus FTTPoD
Standard User candlerb
(committed) Wed 06-Mar-19 21:37:49
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: Snake] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Snake:
Use these in the specify address:

IPV4 Network Address : xxx.xxx.xxx.128 <<<<
IPV4 Network Mask : 255.255.255.248


>>>> That won't work. xxx.xxx.xxx.130 will work.
Standard User Snake
(experienced) Wed 06-Mar-19 22:25:53
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
Sorry that was correct,

I quickly looked at draytek live demo

http://eu.draytek.com:12862/

Cerberus FTTPoD
Standard User candlerb
(committed) Thu 07-Mar-19 08:18:03
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
we've converted this line to 'Wires only', to achieve this.


I apologise - I missed that part somehow.

With a wires-only service, BT will have to tell you how to configure the WAN port of your firewall. Normally they will give you a different IP address, netmask and default gateway. The netmask is likely to be 255.255.255.252.

Then the other block of IP addresses is available for use behind your firewall, should you so choose. You could put these on a separate "DMZ" network behind your firewall. But if you have no servers that want to receive incoming connections from the Internet, then you won't need this.

It's *possible* that they re-used the original LAN block of 8 IPs for the WAN link, but I would be surprised.

The end point is: you're now paying hundreds of pounds a month for a very expensive service. The very least BT can do for you is tell you exactly what IP address, netmask and gateway to configure on your firewall's WAN interface.

Regards,

Brian.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Thu 07-Mar-19 20:33:28
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
It's already been several months of wranglings, and I very much doubt the business owner wants any more - he just wants it all working now, and for us to move on. Besides, the BT Local Business team assure us that the ultimate price should be no more per month than a non-BTnet alternative, since I've kept emails sent during the set-up process, and that's what we were 'promised'. wink It remains to be seen, though.

I take your points, thank you. I'm going to push for getting back to a NON-wires-only set-up, so that I can keep things simple and as most people will have it WITH the BT-supplied Cisco router, and at least stand SOME chance of support from BT if anything goes wrong.

By the way, we're in the the west side of Greater London. Sorry to hear that there are similar problems elsewhere, especially if you've had to spend as much wasted time as I have talking to all of these people at BTLB!


Steve.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Thu 07-Mar-19 20:36:32
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
Thanks snake and candlerb, very informative.

Now I just have to wait for my contact in BTLB, the 'complaints' man and the only one who I can talk to about this, to return from an unexpected holiday.

Sigh...
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Thu 07-Mar-19 21:11:54
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by morgard:
It's already been several months of wranglings, and I very much doubt the business owner wants any more - he just wants it all working now, and for us to move on. Besides, the BT Local Business team assure us that the ultimate price should be no more per month than a non-BTnet alternative, since I've kept emails sent during the set-up process, and that's what we were 'promised'. wink It remains to be seen, though.


Sadly it's almost certainly not the case - but it is a little too late I agree.
Standard User morgard
(newbie) Thu 04-Apr-19 12:15:57
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
Hi everyone,

You were very helpful a few weeks ago with our BTnet situation (thanks!). Now, there's been some developments, and I thought I'd run it past you to try and anticipate what to expect when I next go on-site (probably tomorrow).

A decision was made a couple of weeks ago to change the 'wires only BTnet' setup (which we've still not actually used - we're still running on a separate 'temporary' BT broadband line since this whole process was started at new premises a few months back). This 'wires only' setup was an unsatisfactory situation that we'd been put in by some 'interesting' advice on the part of our BT Local Business team. To save you reading through all the old posts, the summary is that we'd originally been provided with a Cisco 4321 router (no firewall, and requiring configuring with static IP address settings, etc., which I haven't done before). This was converted to a 'wires only' setup, with NO support from BT if issues were to arise. Now, BT have supplied a small Cisco Meraki MX65W router. Unlike the original one, this apparently comes with a firewall, and has been 'set up' already by a BT engineer. So, some questions, please:


- Will this router/firewall simply work? This was certainly not the case previously, which would have required me to follow instructions provided by yourselves in response to my original post. I am more familiar with residential and small business networking setups, where everything just works when plugged in. Sure, in those situations I can change passwords, wireless settings, open ports for CCTV, etc., but I haven't ever needed to make any more fundamental changes to accommodate static IP addresses, etc., as discussed before. Should I expect to be able to plug my laptop directly into the Meraki, and to get a live internet connection immediately without having to do anything else?

- Can and/or should I still use the DrayTek Vigor 2862ac router/firewall (in addition to the Meraki) I bought a few months back, which had been intended to replace the original Cisco router? This was clearly necessary for that setup. Now, I'm wondering if this new Meraki negates the reasons for having the DrayTek. It's too late to return the DrayTek to the supplier, so I don't want to be out of pocket here, and even if the Meraki could be configured in a similar way to the DrayTek, then I'd still rather leave that to BT themselves and not touch it, and do any configuring that we need on-site with the DrayTek that I understand and control. In fact, would I be best advised to not touch the Meraki at all?


I hope that the above is clear, and thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have on this.



Steve.
Standard User lucavigg
(newbie) Tue 14-Apr-20 20:59:23
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: morgard] [link to this post]
 
A very interesting discussion.

My situation is one of no choice. I look after IT for a small food wholesalers in South London. They have ISDN lines with a Nortel BCM150 exchange and really [censored] broadband. We have been pestering BT for about four years for faster broadband (currently 2.5 download and 0.5 upload) and the answer has always been, no plans to provide faster broadband at present.

About a month ago, before the lockdown, the owner was contacted by BT and was given a deal for a new telephone exchange, phones, VOIP and 100 Meg Leased line for almost exactly the same amount that he currently pays. He took the deal and the first part of the install was done before the lockdown. They installed an ADVA FSP150 but I'm fairly sure that the cable for it was left dangling unplugged. Now, they have sent him a managed router and given him the option of self commissioning or getting BT to do it, once we've all finished starring in Outbreak or Contagion.

This last communication would suggest that it's ready to be commissioned and I could go in (with mask, gloves and sanitiser) and get the ball rolling. Now, bearing in mind that I have had ZERO experience with Cisco managed routers, would I be better off, given the above discussion, asking BT to commission their router as a WAN setup so that I could just plug in a WAN router, Vigor or otherwise, (I really don't get on with Vigor) when I'm ready to go?

If they're giving him the option of commissioning it for him, I'm thinking we should take advantage, seeing as it's their kit. Then I could just get the WAN settings and put them in the router and away we go.

Regards
Luca
Standard User Sammm_
(learned) Wed 15-Apr-20 01:43:42
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: lucavigg] [link to this post]
 
It depends on whether you want the connection now or later. We are happy to hold orders for customers until the restrictions are lifted (currently 7th June)

You don't actually configure the BT router, all you would need to do is call the commissioning team and they would ask you to plug the ethernet cable from the ADVA to the GE0/0/0 port on the Cisco (and ofcourse supply power). I would also reccomend you ask the remote engineer for any configuations you want done.

I should also mention that a firewall is mandatory if you are taking the Cloud Voice SIP service.

BT EO Line 16/0.9
Cisco Certfied Network Associate.

All views are my own.
Standard User lucavigg
(newbie) Wed 15-Apr-20 09:20:50
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: Sammm_] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the reply. The connection is not urgent and we can get by for the moment on what we have. I think the VOIP and telephone exchange installation will not be happening for a good few months.

I'll call the commissioning team this morning and express my preference to set it up in the way I posted previously. Presumably, they can remotely configure their managed router so that I can setup and test a new WAN router/firewall/wireless at my own pace during the lockdown and let them know when we've switched to it.

Unfortunately, during the lockdown and because they are a food distribution business, I have to follow strict rules regarding contact and isolation from staff and this usually means I am there very early on a Sunday morning and unable to communicate with BT.

Thanks for the clarification.

Luca
Standard User daddum61
(newbie) Wed 26-Aug-20 15:32:54
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: lucavigg] [link to this post]
 
interesting
I have just had this installed and wish to use the public IP's on my firewalls that are connected to the ADVA box

I called BT to ask for info i.e. do i need PPPoE settings etc, they had sent me the public IP's
I was told that when the meraki box is delivered i can plug into that and anything this i need changing i would call BT and they will change the meraki firewall settings in the cloud, BUT they said they cant bridge the box to put the public IP's on the inside, they can do one to one NAT but thats all
so they are changing me to wires only so i can manage my own firewalls and public IP's
100meg, £800 a quarter with the managed service !
interesting to see what the wires only service will be
i am informed that a meraki box has landed at site, so i guess the move to wires only has not yet happened
Standard User danielhyde
(regular) Wed 26-Aug-20 15:42:25
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: daddum61] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by daddum61:
interesting
I have just had this installed and wish to use the public IP's on my firewalls that are connected to the ADVA box

I called BT to ask for info i.e. do i need PPPoE settings etc, they had sent me the public IP's
I was told that when the meraki box is delivered i can plug into that and anything this i need changing i would call BT and they will change the meraki firewall settings in the cloud, BUT they said they cant bridge the box to put the public IP's on the inside, they can do one to one NAT but thats all
so they are changing me to wires only so i can manage my own firewalls and public IP's
100meg, £800 a quarter with the managed service !
interesting to see what the wires only service will be
i am informed that a meraki box has landed at site, so i guess the move to wires only has not yet happened


With wires only you connect your own router directly to the NTE device.
Standard User daddum61
(newbie) Wed 26-Aug-20 15:50:17
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: danielhyde] [link to this post]
 
How do i know the gateway ip address etc
all i have is public IP addresses and the DNS addreses
Standard User danielhyde
(regular) Wed 26-Aug-20 16:12:30
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: daddum61] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by daddum61:
How do i know the gateway ip address etc
all i have is public IP addresses and the DNS addreses

They should be provided by BT.

For example this was provided by the ISP of the last Leased Line I installed:

IP Address Range: xx.xxx.xxx.xxx/29
Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.248
Gateway IP Address: xx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Usable WAN Address Range: xx.xx.xxx.xxx-xx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Standard User jpm
(regular) Wed 26-Aug-20 18:34:51
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: danielhyde] [link to this post]
 
Those Meraki boxes that BTnet supply can have all the wireless and NAT features disabled and just present the public subnet on one of the LAN ports, it's just a change request that needs to be made to BT.
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Thu 14-Jan-21 16:24:52
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
Hello,

Bit of a latecomer to the thread, but found myself in the same boat. I have a wires only service having been installed and has just come live. During the first set of lockdowns, the IT company who booked the leased line have ceased trading, and the owner of the site (a personal friend of mine) has asked me to take over looking after it.

So we went live today, I have the email with all the IP's in from BT IP Master, and they have given me this list.

WAN IP Address ***.***.***..191
Subnet Mask 255.255.255.254
Next hop back ***.***.***.190

LAN IP Address
Gateway ***.***.***.193
Subnet Mask 255.255.255.248
1st Usable IP Address ***.***.***.194 through to ***.***.***.198

So on my Draytek, it is asking for the WAN IP Address (which in the list above would be the 1st LAN IP). BT have said they have configured the PE for all of the public addresses to be listed, so therefore that should be correct, however no connection.

Sorry to the OP for jumping in, but it looks like an extremely similar situation between us, and thought it might be further info to know there is someone in exactly the same boat,

Thanks smile
Standard User jpm
(member) Thu 14-Jan-21 17:22:35
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: SuperKaye] [link to this post]
 
If you're wires only then your WAN IP on the Draytek router needs to be configured as

***.***.***.191

The subnet mask is 255.255.255.254. Default gateway is ***.***.***.190

The /29 block is a routed block of IPs that you can use in NAT rules or assign to their own subnet. I'm not totally sure how you'd do that on a Draytek device.
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Thu 14-Jan-21 17:30:17
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
Ahh right I was wondering that.

In that case then, the .194... addresses would go in as aliases then or virtual WAN's?
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 14-Jan-21 18:55:45
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: SuperKaye] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by SuperKaye:
I have the email with all the IP's in from BT IP Master, and they have given me this list.

WAN IP Address ***.***.***..191
Subnet Mask 255.255.255.254
Next hop back ***.***.***.190

LAN IP Address
Gateway ***.***.***.193
Subnet Mask 255.255.255.248
1st Usable IP Address ***.***.***.194 through to ***.***.***.198

So on my Draytek, it is asking for the WAN IP Address (which in the list above would be the 1st LAN IP).


What you've written in brackets is not the case here. BT have used a separate numbered IP subnet for the WAN connection, which is outside of the LAN subnet.

x.x.x.190/31 = block of 2 IP addresses
.190 = BT's router at the far end
.191 = your router's WAN address

x.x.x.192/29 = block of 8 IP addresses
.192 = network addressed (reserved)
.193 = router LAN address (which is also the gateway address entered into the clients)
.194-198 = usable for clients
.199 = broadcast address (reserved)

Some providers do use "unnumbered" links on the WAN, in which case the router's WAN address is the same as its LAN address, to save IP addresses.
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Thu 14-Jan-21 19:04:20
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
Sorry that's my mistake, in the brackets I was referring to the first Public usable LAN address that I have been provided with, as in 194.
Standard User Sammm_
(learned) Thu 14-Jan-21 21:35:40
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: SuperKaye] [link to this post]
 
I work on BTnet. With wires only you dont need to use xxx.xxx.xxx.193 as your drayteks gateway. It can be whatever you want out of that range.

BT EO Line 16/1 with Vigor130, MX64, MR33 and MS120-8LP

Cisco Certified Network Associate.
Certified Meraki Network Associate.

All views are my own.
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Thu 14-Jan-21 22:08:04
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: Sammm_] [link to this post]
 
Ah ok, so would I use the one they specify as WAN or the one they specify as LAN?

When I last spoke to them before Christmas, they said if they put the range on the PE then it would be fine to say use .194/29 as first address on the draytek with .193 as the gateway, and that would just work. It doesn't seem to though. although I will need to attend site when the client is off her two week isolation (on sunday) to verify it's connected etc. For now, I know the NTE is live with a connection, but I can't access the router from outside using the .194 address.
Standard User jabuzzard
(experienced) Thu 14-Jan-21 22:54:52
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: SuperKaye] [link to this post]
 
You put the the one they specify as the WAN on the WAN interface of the Draytek

Personally I would setup the LAN with a private class C network and masquerade that to the internet.

You then add in the eight IP addresses you have as fixed mappings in the masquerading tables.

So lets say you set your internal network to be 192.168.20.0/24 (never use 0,1,or 2 IMHO). You can set the internal IP address of the Draytek to 192.168.20.254 (because all right thinking people know the router should be the last IP in the netblock), and set a suitable DHCP range say 192.168.20.16-192.168.20.252

Finally you would set up a static map so that x.x.x.193 mapped to 192.168.20.1 and x.x.x.194 mapped to 192.168.20.2 etc.

Some details on how to set it up

https://www.draytek.co.uk/archive/kb/kb_setup_addres...

though I have never done this on a Draytek myself, I am pretty sure that's the right page. Saves wasting a public IP address on the Draytek, and you can have more than eight devices on the internal network and they can seemlessly talk to the devices that have "public" IP addresses as they are on the same network without doing hairpin NAT on the Draytek.

I prefer Edgerouters for this type of setup because you can get a mini private DNS server from dnsmasq which you can't do on the Draytek's.
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Thu 14-Jan-21 23:01:51
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
Ok I'm following that well, so the WAN IP I got goes in the Draytek WAN and the Next Hop address would go in as the gateway.

However, say I just want a "typical" network on the internal LAN, with all devices that appear (say on wireless) to have internet access, would I still do the mappings for the internal LAN's, say 192.168.20.1 etc?

I would only want the Draytek to have a public IP, and the internal mail server, so that would take 194 and 195 out of the five public addresses assigned to the connection. I've always done that through WAN IP aliasing before.

Thanks so much!
K
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Thu 14-Jan-21 23:02:50
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Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: SuperKaye] [link to this post]
 
Most of the jobs I do now are on Edgerouters, however this one already had the draytek there so makes sense to use it. It's brand new etc.
Standard User SuperKaye
(newbie) Sun 17-Jan-21 17:06:35
Print Post

Re: BTnet and DrayTek router help


[re: SuperKaye] [link to this post]
 
Hello,

So, with Draytek's help and advice above, it's working.

Here's what we found.

BT WAN address goes in as normal router WAN address. Next hop is the gateway for the router.

Then, in the WAN settings, WAN IP Alias are the public IP's assigned to the connection.

smile

Cheers all!!
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