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Standard User dect
(member) Mon 03-Jun-19 16:05:56
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
When you're dealing with a dinosaur like OpenReach
I've said on here many times that I'm ex-BT and in my business unit we always had the policy to set realistic expectations and not to promise timescales we couldn't deliver, we always tried to be honest and our largely business customers appreciated the honesty and for the majority of them we delivered on time.

Having said all that I can't speak for other business units at that time or any nowadays.
Standard User candlerb
(committed) Mon 03-Jun-19 22:11:45
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
With FTTPoD there is no committed date, so there's no promise to break. (Aside: I don't know if it's Openreach or Cerberus who are sitting on the cash that was paid up-front).

With a little bit of common sense, Openreach could have done a lot better than they have for me. All they needed to do was to prove and rope up the *whole route* at the start, make a list of problems which needed fixing, and fix them all in successive weeks.

Instead what they did was come to a complete stop as soon as one problem was found, then organise fixing it (this can take 3-6 months). Then they stop at the next problem, organise fixing it (another 3-6 months), and so on. I'm on around the fourth cycle of this now.
Standard User dect
(member) Mon 03-Jun-19 22:35:03
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
what they did was come to a complete stop as soon as one problem was found, then organise fixing it (this can take 3-6 months). Then they stop at the next problem, organise fixing it (another 3-6 months), and so on. I'm on around the fourth cycle of this now.
When you explain it like that it doesn't sound good.

For project work we always sent in an experienced member of the team who would go through everything from beginning to end to identify issues which we would then tackle first as a priority and that seemed to work for us and prevented delays.


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Standard User Alvintc
(newbie) Wed 05-Jun-19 13:38:26
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Well, that prompted more responses than I expected.

OK, my issue is not with BT/ Timescales - I understand that.

My issue is that throughout the ordering process Cerberus were excellent. Incredibly responsive and diligent in their answers (it was actually them that pointed me over here). It was very much a case that I'd ask a question, get not only that answer but also the answer to my likely follow-up question.

I found this incredibly reassuring as it meant they'd done this before.

Then I paid the full invoice and get handed off to the admin team, this is where my issues are.

Every email has a tagline telling me when my next update is, they miss this pretty much every single week.

When challenged they state it's because they receive the BT updates late in the day, I understand that, so why not move your update to the subsequent day = no response.

Key events are not updated (in my case the survey & blockage clearance) I tend to have more knowledge of or they don't make any contact.

I have several boxes that will be relocated once the service goes live, this takes planning to ensure there's no interruption and I have to give notice to the current DC so need some certainty.

If I operated my business in the same way I'd have a lot less customers, the main reason for the frustration is that it's a pretty easy fix:

Do what you say you will, when you say you will. Follow up at key points.

Project management 101....
Standard User PhilipD
(experienced) Wed 05-Jun-19 14:13:18
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: Alvintc] [link to this post]
 
Hi

Yes they should do what they say they will, if a company raises expectations then dashes them its not good.

I've seen here it has taken some people a year or more to achieve a working connection, surely there must be a strong argument for cancelling the contract? The customer has paid up front in good faith then a year later they may still be waiting for the service, that's not on, or at least they should be offered some compensation for the delays.

I know it isn't Cerberus fault, but then they need to cancel with Openreach for breach of contract, it might make Openreach move a bit faster and be a bit more organised if they were facing cancelled contracts and having to refund after they had incurred expenses.

Regards

Phil
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 05-Jun-19 15:18:41
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: PhilipD] [link to this post]
 
I've seen here it has taken some people a year or more to achieve a working connection, surely there must be a strong argument for cancelling the contract? The customer has paid up front in good faith then a year later they may still be waiting for the service, that's not on, or at least they should be offered some compensation for the delays.

I know it isn't Cerberus fault, but then they need to cancel with Openreach for breach of contract, it might make Openreach move a bit faster and be a bit more organised if they were facing cancelled contracts and having to refund after they had incurred expenses.


I couldn't disagree more

What's the breach of contract?

It's a bespoke product, planned and built specifically for the individual ordering.
It's sold with no fixed dates.

Certainly the enquiry I made to Cerberus came with a very detailed reply.
They made of point of telling me the ordering process can be very long and tedious, despite me not enquiring about how long it would take.
Standard User PhilipD
(experienced) Wed 05-Jun-19 16:11:58
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Hi

Well the breach of contract is not supplying the service you have paid for. How long do you carry on waiting, 12 months, 18 months, 2 years? Services have to be supplied in a reasonable amount of time, you can't just have something open ended with no right to enforce the contract or cancel it. Yes people are told it can be a long process, and how long is too long is down to the person/company who made the order and the legal system to decide if it was ever taken that far.

Openreach have to pay compensation when delays happen in various parts of their network in the supply of services, but FTTP on Demand seems to have bypassed any rational SLA for time to live.

I can't think of any other examples where you are expected to pay thousands or tens of thousands of pounds for a service UP FRONT in full, with absolutely no requirement for the supplier to supply it at any time in the future, because they can delay the supply as long as they like for whatever reason without you being able to cancel the contract. I'm pretty sure that isn't legal and could legitimately be challenged.

Regards

Phil

Edited by PhilipD (Wed 05-Jun-19 16:18:48)

Standard User baby_frogmella
(knowledge is power) Wed 05-Jun-19 16:48:03
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: PhilipD] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by PhilipD:
Well the breach of contract is not supplying the service you have paid for. How long do you carry on waiting, 12 months, 18 months, 2 years?

You wait however long it takes, whether its 4 months or four 2 years. It may come as a shock to you but install times of 2+ years were the norm when FTTPoD first came out around 2013. These lead times have been slashed massively in recent years, my own install took less than 4 months. However I was prepared to wait for longer if necessary. If you're of the impatient type, then FTTPoD isn't for you. Simples.

Btw majority of delays to FTTPoD installs are out of Openreach's control such as road closures which can only be done at certain times of the year (eg if outside a school) according to local council rules/regulations.

FluidOne FTTPoD 330/30 Mbps
Linksys EA9500v2

Edited by baby_frogmella (Wed 05-Jun-19 17:28:18)

Standard User Disca
(newbie) Wed 05-Jun-19 16:55:05
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: PhilipD] [link to this post]
 
Just adding my quote so someone can update the spreadsheet with pricing etc.
8/2/2019 Desktop survey requested
21/2/2019 Desktop survey received for £22300 ex VAT
21/2/2019 Survey fee paid
BT guy turned up maybe 2 weeks after the survey requested, only saw him once. Dont think he lifted many hatches in the road - 2 or 3 maximum from what I could see.
29/5/2019 Final build quote received for £9863.00 ex VAT of which :-

£6310 Labour
£3758 Stores
£750 Civils
£495 Connection Charge
-£250 Survey
-£1200 for properties passed [email protected] £50 and mine at £750
£9863 + VAT

Can claim the government £2500 grant so total will end up being £7363 ex VAT.

I'm 800-1000m away from the distribution point according to the orig estimate.

Have paid for it today 5/6/2019, will update when its live.
Standard User PhilipD
(experienced) Wed 05-Jun-19 17:06:46
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Re: FTTPoD desktop quotes and final prices Part 4


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Hi

Btw majority of delays to FTTPoD installs are out of Openreach's control such as road closures which can only be done at certain times of the year (eg if outside a school) according to local council rules/regulations.


That doesn't matter under the law, you can't blame someone else.

No, you don't have to wait as long as it takes, that is the whole point of what I'm saying, of course you can if you like, but.. If you say got to 2 years of waiting with no guarantees in sight, you can take legal action to cancel the contract, that is a legal right. Or have you just changed the law by yourself?

There is the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 to help protect businesses and of course the Sales to Consumer act if ordered as an individual. I don't know what would be deemed as too long or what would be awarded as compensation, that would need to be decided by the legal system the first time someone sues for breach of contract for non-supply of FTTP on Demand.

You can't post here and change the law. All I'm pointing out is Cerberus or whoever the supplier is can't expect someone to wait for ever, at some point, a legal challenge is perfectly acceptable by a customer that could see a decision made on what is too long. A person or company has a legal right to challenge the contract for breach of. Simple as.

Regards

Phil
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