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Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 01-Aug-19 15:34:00
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: shaunhw] [link to this post]
 
The guy is definitely confused.

Unless your street has over 1400 new properties branching off from it there's not a hope in helps chance that they are installing another 2 Aggregation Nodes across the street from each other.

As MrSaffron suggests the surveyor was almost certainly talking about Splitter Nodes.

The Aggregation Node that already serves your FTTC cabinet will almost certainly be the 1 you will be connected to.

An Aggregation Node usually serves 3 or 4 Fibre cabinets, and can cover around 1400 premises for FTTP as well as the Fibre cabinets.

The Aggregation Nodes were placed during the FTTC rollout with a future FTTP rollout in mind.

Between the single Aggregation Node (already in place) and the 1400 premises there would be many Splitter Nodes and even more Fibre Distribution Points installed, but no other Aggregation Nodes.

I can't think of any reason another 2 Agg Nodes would be needed across the road from each other.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 01-Aug-19 15:35:50)

Standard User shaunhw
(experienced) Thu 01-Aug-19 15:47:22
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Hi MrSaffron - Thanks for your reply.

Well you could be right of course, given your in depth knowledge of these things.

However his drawing definitely said "agnode" on it, marked up in red, and from there the single fibre line would go up the existing pole almost outside our house, to a passive optical splitter where 12 (in my case) of the neighbours could also be connected, sharing that single line in the ground, connected to whatever it really is. He explained that part in great detail. Everyone downloading at full 330mps that would need 4 gb/sec on its own, and I believe it's currently shared at 2.3gb/sec downwards.

Would the splitter (if this is a splitter) in the ground also result in fibre bandwidth sharing as well as (in my case) at the pole ? Or do these serve to spilt incoming fibre bundles into single fibre lines possibly to go up the telegraph pole to the passive splitter, or an underground one where actual optical bandwidth sharing then does take place ?

He didn't tell me what was happening with the rest of the road, only there was to be another agnode (his words) on the other side. Possibly these are distribution points or something.

The discussion started when I asked him where the agnode actually was, as it would possibly affect how much I had to pay. He then said "Oh, you know about agnodes then ?", and went into some detail - and that I would be connected to a new one yet to be installed. Perhaps I am being charged for that and the line(s) back to the main node over a kilometre away!

Who knows. We will have to see what the quote ends up as. If I can afford it, it doesn't matter how it all works apart from it is very interesting. But installing the splitter/dp/agnode/whatever would enable far more of us than the 12 premises our pole would serve, to be much more easily connected. We shall see. Normally FTTPoD is a single fibre straight out to the agnode, with a splitter at the user's end, where neighbours can share the very expensive connection very cheaply. Not that I would mind that of course.


But he said as far as I was concerned I would be connected to a point in the ground yet to be installed which much nearer my house than was expected and the charge should relate just to that aspect for a FTTPod order.

Sunnyside being connected to full fibre by 2020 is the area mentioned on the BDUK site, but it is on the same Wickersley exchange as we are, so they might be doing more rollout than just the Sunnyside area. It would be strange just to be doing Sunnyside, as they are really well served by FTTC and don't have any over subscribed cabinets unlike us on the south side of the exchange.

Thanks again.
Shaun.

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 01-Aug-19 17:51:30
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: shaunhw] [link to this post]
 
An aggregation node to serve just 12 premises is plain daft. Given the density of the area it is possible that one is being added but serves a lot more premises but without knowing where you are located hard to say more.

In terms of space in ground or on a pole, there is not much difference between an aggregation node and a spliter, beyond splitters comprise of one side of splice trays, while the aggregation node has trays on both sides to cope with all the fibres running off to the downstream splitters.

On the BDUK they don't use a BDUK FTTP intervention to roll-out to a much wider area, they will usually only do the sub 30 Mbps premises and tend to concentrate on the sub 15 Mbps ones first. So maybe some of cabinet 16 area will get FTTP which fits the Sunnyside area.

"Normally FTTPoD is a single fibre straight out to the agnode, with a splitter at the user's end, where neighbours can share the very expensive connection very cheaply"

Oh no its not, a running a single fibre strand cable is never done for this sort of thing, you always run something with some spares and FoD will be built so that whatever sized fibre cable would be needed if they were planning a full FTTP roll-out in the area. You pay a bigger than your share but that is part of the penalty for jumping the queue.

The splitter at the users end can a good distance from the actual user, the bit that is closest is the fibre manifold to which the individual fibre to the person who orders is connected to.

Have you actually agreed to the costs given in your survey? Since they would not go ahead with FoD unless you had agreed with initial quote and paid the full survey fee.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 01-Aug-19 19:56:39
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: shaunhw] [link to this post]
 
I'd be very wary of going ahead with FTTPoD Shaun until you know what all that work is.

If it is for native FTTP, which is what it sounds like to me, however it is being organised and financed, then once that is available it is bog standard ISP installation charges of exactly the same amount in BT's case as FTTC.

If you pay a wodge for FTTPoD then a week later everyone else can get it far cheaper, you wouldn't be very happy.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User shaunhw
(experienced) Thu 01-Aug-19 20:10:43
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Have you actually agreed to the costs given in your survey? Since they would not go ahead with FoD unless you had agreed with initial quote and paid the full survey fee.


No I've not paid as yet, and have no idea exactly how much it might be, because the surveyor only called this morning so I haven't got a full quote back yet. But he said he was surveying the whole area so was looking at mine at the same time.

As we are all sub 30mbits here (I get about 27-28mb/sec on this site's speed test) it might be a part of a rollout, as the further south on our road you go, the worse the speeds are.

The strange thing is that across our road from the houses with the poorest speeds (sub 25mb) there's a new (last year) cabinet (cab 58) that serves only a side road opposite it (who were all converted from exchange only lines last year) along with some of the adjacent new houses on a side road very near it, with the other new houses on that street being connected to our cabinet, (cab 2) probably being the ones which were built first. They'll have the slowest speeds of all on our cabinet I think.

Our Wickersley exchange serves about 10,000 properties - so there may well be more than one aggregation node around, but I agree that I couldn't see the need for two in the area where I live, so yes they are probably splitters as you say. Maybe the engineer used that term because I mentioned it, who knows. But he had both of them written on his plan as agnode for sure.

It's passive optical splitters on the top of the telephone poles which will serve the individual properties - with fibre cables going off from those to the two new underground devices the surveyor said they are fitting, which will serve an unknown extra number of premises - Probably from other telegraph poles as everyone round here is connected to them via copper lines. I got the impression that this is going to happen regardless of what I decide to do with FTTPoD

Thanks again for your further reply,
Shaun.

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Edited by shaunhw (Thu 01-Aug-19 20:15:30)

Standard User shaunhw
(experienced) Thu 01-Aug-19 20:27:24
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I'd be very wary of going ahead with FTTPoD Shaun until you know what all that work is.

If it is for native FTTP, which is what it sounds like to me, however it is being organised and financed, then once that is available it is bog standard ISP installation charges of exactly the same amount in BT's case as FTTC.

If you pay a wodge for FTTPoD then a week later everyone else can get it far cheaper, you wouldn't be very happy.


I've heard that they cancel FTTPoD orders if native FTTP is scheduled and I might get such a notification - I've read about others getting them. But yes, I agree entirely with your advice of caution. smile

The only caveat is that if they are going to bring native FTTP here, is my own address included in the scheme anyway ? Judging by the placement of those splitters (or whatever) on that map the surveyor showed me, it looks as if it would be, but one never knows with these things.

No doubt all will be revealed in the coming months!

Shaun.

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Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 01-Aug-19 21:15:43
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: shaunhw] [link to this post]
 
As we are all sub 30mbits here (I get about 27-28mb/sec on this site's speed test) it might be a part of a rollout, as the further south on our road you go, the worse the speeds are.


I'm not sure if you technically qualify as being under 30Mb or not.

You mentioned a sync speed of 29995 which could be an artificial cap on the line.
To me that sync speed suggests the DLM may have capped your line, it may be able to achieve more than it currently syncs at.

Does your modem show a max attainable rate or further stats like SNRM?
Standard User shaunhw
(experienced) Fri 02-Aug-19 09:52:00
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
I'm not sure if you technically qualify as being under 30Mb or not.

You mentioned a sync speed of 29995 which could be an artificial cap on the line.
To me that sync speed suggests the DLM may have capped your line, it may be able to achieve more than it currently syncs at.

Does your modem show a max attainable rate or further stats like SNRM?


Hi - Your assumptions are quite correct!

Yes, it does show a higher attainable rate - currently about 36322 mps (but that goes up and down like a yo-yo) but I can never attain that. - Someone said interleaving affected that, and I'm on 461 down, and fastpath up.

I bought my present house in April, having moved from round the corner, so had to get a new connection. Easier said than done because most of the time you can't order anything at all apart from ADSL, but I got lucky as my ISP was prepared to deal with the waiting list for me.

When the VDSL connection went live, I got synced at about 29000 ish with all default settings, so I tweaked the Draytek's "vdsl snr" delta figure so it dropped the downstream SNR to 3db to see how well it worked. Then I managed to sync at around 34,000 and it seemed pretty stable. No resyncs or anything.

However We had some very poor led G10 lights in the upstairs hallway (now replaced) where the router is located, causing more than unacceptable error seconds, so I got capped! I might have been capped anyway - but it seemed really stable when the lights were not turned on. Unfortunately there was a period where I couldn't keep the lights off because the plumber was refitting my bathroom the day the connection went live! I could see the attainable rate drop dramatically when I switched those wretched leds on, and there was one very near where the router is placed. I took that lamp out, but I think it was probably too late by then. Of course there was also the plumber's power tools....

So now I can STILL only reach this cap, (29995) if I put the snr to less than 5 db. I currently have it at 4.8 and the line is stable and works for weeks. Reducing the snr further, makes no difference so it is clearly a cap.

Despite the connection working continuously well over a couple of weeks, with very few ES etc., the management system did not remove that cap.

BUT - If I set the snr delta to 0 so the Draytek doesn't try to "lie" to the cabinet I sync at around 29000 or less which is then under their cap limit. I guess their software must have rumbled my snr deceptions!

I am using a Draytek 2862 connected to a ECI cabinet about 800 metres away.

So no - I'm not over the 30mbits/second really.

The fact I can even get 29995 is down to my meddling with the router, because with the router modem's default settings I can't even get that!

If I was connected to an Huawei cab with G.INP, vectoring, and 3db profiles and all those tweaks I'd do much better, but right now I can only sync at the cap, if I fiddle the snr figures a bit.

So, all things set as they should be - yes I am under 30mbs!

Shaun.

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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 02-Aug-19 10:45:56
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: shaunhw] [link to this post]
 
If there is a risk, which I doubt but could be wrong, that you may be denied FTTP because your speed is too high, when all around you have lower speeds so get it, tweaking the system to attain the higher speed may not be the best thing to do.

Given what SIN 498 says, ”Note : It is the DLM system that sets the line profile, and this should not be interfered with by CPs/users setting rates, SNR margins etc. at the modem”, Openreach may not be particularly sympathetic if this did happen.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User shaunhw
(experienced) Fri 02-Aug-19 12:47:45
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Re: FTTPoD quotes, prices and general chat thread Part 5


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ok - I took your advice and turned it off now. vdsl snr (delta) = 0. Some relevant stats are now:

- - - - - - - - - - - - Downstream - - - - - - Upstream
Actual Rate - - - - 29396 Kbps- - - - - - - 5829 Kbps
Attainable Rate- - 34111 Kbps - - - - - - - 5866 Kbps
Path Mode - - - - - Interleave - - - - - - - - Fast
Interleave Depth- 429 - - - - - - - - - - - - 1
SNR Margin- - - - 6 dB- - - - - - - - - - - - 6 dB
Attenuation- - - - 28 dB - - - - - - - - - - - 40 dB

As you can see, sync speed is now below the cap I seem to have and I'll leave it there at least for now.

Cheers,
Shaun.

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Edited by shaunhw (Fri 02-Aug-19 13:05:06)

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