Finally FTTC has come @ 0.2 mi to cab what speeds to expect?

After 10+ years of waiting on an Exchange Only Line I have been finally upgraded to FTTC here in Central London, Commercial Street Bishopsgate Exchange. Yesterday I saw it switch to Available from Planned.
https://i.imgur.com/EXWQxfkl.jpg

High Low High Low
VDSL Range A (Clean)80 68.2 20 19 62.1 Available --
VDSL Range B (Impacted)80 64.8 20 19 56.6 Available --

I have also just located the cabinet earlier ago today and it is exactly located in 46 Frostic Walk, Shadwell, London E1 5LT.

It is approximately 0.2 miles to my home in E1 6DJ ~ 321.869 meters. Now I have a couple of questions to ask. According to the checker my lowest expected speeds should be between 64.8 - 68.2 Mbps with the highest at 80 Mbps.

I�m worried that with a 322 meters or so copper cable length my internet might not be stable to maintain those speeds. What if the internet drops out and the line cannot cope with such speed? Will the connection speed drop to below the lowest levels?

As I�m aware it is not about just getting those speeds, if noise margin drops and disconnects DLM will re-sync to a lower speed and the speed may get to something below the lowest estimate.

I�m still with Plusnet ADSL and already paid year upfront in advance on January. I have until January 2020 for the 12 month contract to end.
For example with ADSL I got once 18.07 Mbps in speed test but at 3dB noise margin. Line could never maintain stability! In both cases with Sky and Plusnet I had to tell them to increase the SNR to 9dB manually for the connection to be stable. Only at 12 Mbps ~ 9dB noise margin my connection is stable and that's between a maximum of 34-56 days. This has always been my headache, that�s why I am worried that FTTC may carry on the same problems if cabinet is not so close to my building�

Can someone tell me from your experiences living around 300-400 meters away from your street fibre cabinet whether you are able to sync at such speeds without connection dropping out? What's the highest connection up-time you get on average? Obviously without me ordering, I will never know what to expect. But I'm afraid what if the internet drops out and the line cannot cope with 64-68 Mbps speeds and drops to something significantly lower than that?

Do you think I will be able to quit the ISP penalty free? I�m more positive about the 35 Mbps package as that will be more friendly on the line. FTTC will be my only option for now as my building management team seemed to have refused wayleave consent with Hyperoptic last 4 years as discussed previously last year...

Many thanks!

I would think many people at that sort of distance will reply that they have no problems with high speeds. I�m posting to ask whether you have ever looked into the detail of your internal home extension wiring.

Problems with that could very well be what is causing your long-standing disconnection problem.

There are two main suspects if you have any extension sockets, whether or not they are in use. First is the ring/bell wire, and second is star wiring. That is when extensions are connected in the circuit between the point the line reaches the property and the master socket.

Also see this page for some other possible causes of instability on the premises.

We are similarly about 0.2m from our FTTC cabinet. The connection is underground for the first 200 yards, completed by 100 yards on dual use poles with the main electric wiring about 3 feet above the telephone wiring.

We have a comparatively clean bill of health internally with nothing connected at the master socket and a single extension which feeds phone and modem/router through a "soap-on-a-rope" filter.

We were one of the first adopters on the cabinet and sync'd at 79999/20000 once DLM had done its work. G.INP was also enabled once the connection had settled down. As more people have connected, the speed has dropped due to cross-talk. We had a bout of errors a couple of months ago which I think was caused by something external and got forced onto retransmission high. Since then the downstream SNR has settled at 3.3dB and we have been sync'd at 73000 to 74000 downstream and 17000 to 18000 upstream. The only dropouts or disconnections have been due to interference on my part.

If the connection from your cabinet to the property is clean and you have no internal problems there is no reason why you shouldn't maintain a connection in the high 60s/low 70s (subject to any cross-talk issues at a greater level than we see on our connection).

I sync at 45Mb at a touch over 1km from the cabinet.
I used to get 55Mb before crosstalk took a little.

My line remains in sync for months at a time with 0 or 1 Error Seconds a day.

The technology is designed to sync at a stable rate. You're worrying about nothing.

The OpenReach DLM (line management) will tweak the line if necessary to add more speed if it's stable enough or lower the speed if it's not.
Just don't tinker with the modem/hub once the line is live/synced.
It can be quickly capped if you resync too often.

Not bad, I'm around 840m from the Cabinet (Openreach confirmed line length recently at a visit) and sync at 36Mbps on a good day. Crosstalk unfortunately on a full ECI cabinet is the main cause for that one.

You sit in the middle of 3 exchanges area there, Bishopsgate, Wapping and Monument so not ideal but luckily they are all a stone throw away

From your previous adsl, (well current stats) you are also very close to exchange. I would do as other have said, check your internal wiring and microfilters.

I would have said, there might have been issues with the cabling beyond the cabinet but with vdsl the copper doesn't go beyond the cabinet. But as you are so close to the exchange any or network cabling issues would be small.

So that leads me back to your own internal cabling

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Do you think I will be able to quit the ISP penalty free?

It doesn't make much difference even if you can. All ISPs will be using the same FTTC infrastructure (the same DSLAM in the cabinet, the same copper cabling to your building) so your sync speed and line stability will be the same with them all.

But any decent ISP should give you a minimum speed guarantee of some sorts, and if you don't meet the agreed minimum speed then you'll get an engineer visit to sort it and/or cash back and/or the right to leave, depending on the ISP.

Plusnet should be able to offer you an in-contract upgrade, so I'd be inclined to go with them. If a 40/10 service is fast enough for your needs then you'll save a 4 quid a month by taking that service, and as you say it'll be rock solid. However at your distance, I'd say an 80/20 service is likely to work very well indeed. Although Plusnet's advertised prices are for new customers, if they don't offer them to you then threaten to walk and they'll likely match them (or if not, then walk anyway).

Another possible cause of instability is your ADSL router - but you'll get a new VDSL router as part of the FTTC upgrade.

Final note: you should be prepared that your sync speed will drop over time, as more and more people on your cabinet take the FTTC service and crosstalk starts to have an impact.

I had an ADSL2+ connection in the exchange building that couldn't get more than 20Mbits with a 3dB margin.
Some exchanges just have a lot of internal 'noise' than others and tie cables maybe unavoidably routed internally near to noise sources.
The OP may well find that just like most others with similar line lengths that they will get a stable, fast connection.
I have a similar D side length. Sync @ 70/18 Mbits with a 6dB margin, connection uptime 28days.

Edited by witchunt (Thu 03-Oct-19 11:18:53)

You're closer than me and I get 68mbps down and 14mbps up so I think you'll be looking at low seventies, possibly higher.

According to my Fritzbox I'm 295 metres from the cab. My stats are:

Attainable throughput kbit/s 97304 33693
Current throughput kbit/s 79998 19999

Edited by kebabselector (Thu 03-Oct-19 23:39:05)

Many thanks for the responses. Seems like there is some hope that there should be no issues. I have done some extensive calculations using google maps. Turns out that from the cabinet to the entrance of my building is exactly 278 meters. While the height of my building is 62 meters.

To add 278+62=340 meters at the top roof of the building. Half way and I am probably around the 320 meter mark. Looks like those on the first few floors will benefit the most.

I looked at the graph chart here. https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-...

(km) (Mbps)
0.3 76.0
0.4 69.0

Should be getting around 70-75 Mbps roughly. Hopefully the worst case scenario is if noise margin increases as a result of DLM then hopefully it should stabilise between 60-65 Mbps worst case scenario. But obviously if 64-68 Mbps is the lowest estimate but at e.g lower noise margins like 3.0 dB then it will be disastrous. If it is at 6-9 dB then it will give more room for stability and speed.

The Bishopsgate Telephone Exchange, 20 Jerome St, Spitalfields, London E1 6NJ shows as 643.738 meters to my building on google maps. But if I include the cabinet location 46 Frostic Walk, Shadwell, London E1 5LT then this totals 0.6 mile 965.606 meters. That equates to 1km distance and if this is the amount of copper travelling that might indeed be the reason why on ADSL my line can't cope with 3 dB.

But hopefully now from cabinet to home will only be roughly 320 meters of copper. A 600+ meter reduction of copper length should naturally reduce noise on the line and the connection should no longer drop out at the higher speeds.

@candlerb: I'm aware that all ISP's will provide the same service. This is why I will need to make sure that the 63-67 Mbps package provides me a stable connection, because if it is not then I will then have to quit and only opt for the 38 Mbps package.

I will find out in January, without experimenting I will not know.

My internal wiring was once checked from a Sky Engineer who said it was all fine 2 years ago. Although from the intrusion point there is a few meters of extra cabling going on to the master socket. After ordering FTTC, I will see if naturally the problem resolves by itself. If it doesn't then I'll look into rewiring by cables to shorten them.

You're overthinking things. As others have already said, you shouldn't have any issues getting a high sync (based on your line estimates) but better to wait until you're actually connected before coming to any conclusions.

Quite, and until you have the service you will never know.

I think this is a really good example to show others that telephone cables don't/can't always go the most direct route from the exchange to a property. Considering your telephone line was previously EO most people would think it would come out of the exchange in Jerome Street turn left into Commercial Street where your property is. Sadly this proves the main cable goes away from your property before it gets to you.

+1

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

I will find out in January, without experimenting I will not know.

The BT wholesale dslchecker will give you numbers that are best using.

When I first ordered FTTC (with BTbroadband) I was able to achieve ~60Mbps, but now around 6 years later, I only achieve a ~47Mbps sync. The dslchecker always said speeds from 45Mbps upwards.

The checker is assuming worst case with every other property in the cable bundle buying FTTC. Which seems to have happened here, MANY people have switched from cable to satellite television (the number of dishes going up) in the last 5 years, and probably switched to bundled (cheaper) FTTC connections.

I'm about 450m from the cabinet and get a rock solid connection at the full 80/20. It wasn't always that high but has been now for a year.

Edited by kasg (Sat 05-Oct-19 18:39:47)

In reply to a post by dect:

I think this is a really good example to show others that telephone cables don't/can't always go the most direct route from the exchange to a property. Considering your telephone line was previously EO most people would think it would come out of the exchange in Jerome Street turn left into Commercial Street where your property is. Sadly this proves the main cable goes away from your property before it gets to you.

You are right! That was what I was thinking too. Google Maps and all my previous ISP's on the phone support team were misguiding me over the years by saying that I was very close to the exchange and should get top speeds ADSL.

Through a direct route via Brushfield Street and Commercial Street it looks very short 643.738 meters 0.4 miles. This creates an impression that the cable length is only reduced by half.

But going via Hanbury Street and Brick Lane to Frostic Walk and back on to my location that's 965.606 meters + another 20 meters height and that's 985 meters of copper.

985-320 meters= 665 In reality FTTC should reduce the copper cable length by as much as 665 meters so in theory this should resolve noise issues on the line reducing the risk of disconnections like one user on the ISPReview comments told me!

In reply to a post by kasg:

I'm about 450m from the cabinet and get a rock solid connection at the full 80/20. It wasn't always that high but has been now for a year.

That's great to know. I hope you are actually syncing at a stable connection at that speed without any noise margin issues or drop-outs! I guess you are no longer suffering from crosstalk hence for a solid top speed.

This should give me some hope that my connection should be stable. Although I did wish the length was shorter than 320 meters, would've felt more relaxed. But as others have said if they don't have issues with 300-450 meter lines, then fingers crossed, I will be fine too!

I switched to TalkTalk as of 3rd of February. And these are my results.

Line 1
Downstream Upstream
Actual Rate [Kbps] 80000 19999
Maximum Rate [Kbps] 80534 19999
Noise Margin [dB] 6.40 15.40
Attenuation [dB] 17.90 0.00
Power [dBm] 13.00 7.60
https://www.speedtest.net/result/d/b55441ea-4c6a-460...

The only thing I don't understand is why are my speedtest only between 68-73 Mbps when my router is synced with a current speed
Download
80.0 Mbps
Upload
20.0 Mbps
?
Upload at least achieves full sync 20 Mbps in speedtest but the download is averaging 68 Mbps when actual rate is being synced to 80000Kbps in router settings. Is this TalkTalk capping the speeds to not hit 80Mbps? It is like that with all wired computer devices at home, I don't use Wi-Fi.

At least I am achieving 4 ms response time in speed test.

Maybe your transmission is high in bearer 0 to reduce IP Profile at 91-92% instead of 96.79%

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Maybe your transmission is high in bearer 0 to reduce IP Profile at 91-92% instead of 96.79%

There's a recent trend of lines having an IP profile around 88% of sync speed.
Maximum throughout being about 69-70Mb in such cases.

Not a problem for the OP but it isn't as cut and dry as it used to be.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 06-Feb-20 17:51:05)

There are overheads involved and nobody will ever get 80Mb throughput on FTTC.

77.4Mb is about the highest you can get if the line is on Retx Low.
73Mb (roughly) if on Retx High.

Some lines have been getting maximum throughout about 69-70Mb recently with no explanation for the drop.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 06-Feb-20 17:57:13)

I managed to get 75 Mbps today via https://internetfrog.com/mypc/speedtest/
I also saw that the speed did burst to 91 Mbps, although most definitely fake, I have also seen bursts of 78-80 Mbps in Broadbandspeedchecker and on thinkbroadband at times.

The TalkTalk WiFi Hub router is displaying Actual Rate [Kbps] 80000 19999 Maximum Rate [Kbps] 80534 19999 Attenuation [dB] 17.90

So it is syncing at the top speeds as stated from the BT Wholesale checker. Noise margins seem to be consistently the same Noise Margin [dB] 6.40 15.40. I don't know if it is the router, but there is no fluctuation in the noise margins when refreshing the browser, something that was always the case with ADSL.

The BT Openreach engineer came to my home as part of the upgrade which TalkTalk sent for free. He did a test and showed his electronic device showing between 70-83 Mbps. I asked him whether it was possible to shorten my internal wiring in my home and he said this wasn't needed as cutting 5-10 meters of extra copper wasn't going to make a difference to the speeds at all, but did upgrade the VDSL Faceplate with an MK4 which means I don't need micro filter.

At least it looks like from those stats I am indeed within 0.2 mi (300 meters or so from cabinet).

As for the speeds, I'm not sure why 77.4Mb is the highest achievable figure when some post codes on https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/ADSLChecker.Addre... state 79 Mbps Low and 80 Mbps High.
There is one building near my building, different post code E1 6PS connected with a different cabinet that is less than 75 meters to their building.

Are you saying these customers will not get 79 Mbps in speed test?

Yes I'm saying that's impossible on FTTC.

The High/Low figures quoted on the DSL checker are sync speed estimates, not speed tests.

There are overheads that mean you get lower throughput on speed tests than what you sync at.

Edit: to add, you sync at full rate. Don't worry that speed tests aren't the full 80Mb.
Others would give a limb to get full sync from the cabinet.

Many speed testers will show results higher than what's possible.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 07-Feb-20 17:20:54)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Yes I'm saying that's impossible on FTTC.

The High/Low figures quoted on the DSL checker are sync speed estimates, not speed tests.

There are overheads that mean you get lower throughput on speed tests than what you sync at.

Edit: to add, you sync at full rate. Don't worry that speed tests aren't the full 80Mb.
Others would give a limb to get full sync from the cabinet.

Many speed testers will show results higher than what's possible.

Well, well, well, my speeds have improved and I am now getting over 75+ Mbps and even got 79.5 Mbps in one of the results!

We have tested your speed and have recorded an average download speed of: 76.12 Mbps


https://i.imgur.com/jtK0PMJl.jpg Internet Frog Speed Test: 79.5 Mbps Download 20 Mbps Upload
https://i.imgur.com/k8Lmgoh.jpg Which Broadband Speed Test 78.9 Mbps Download 19.3 Mbps Upload

Burst speeds of think broadband jumps to 78.7 Mbps now.

This is quite a big improvement from my tests a few days ago. I don't know if this is DLM that has improved things. But the router stats does not show drop-out last 5 days, it is showing same sync speeds.

Line 1
Downstream Upstream
Actual Rate [Kbps] 80000 19999
Maximum Rate [Kbps] 80534 19999
Noise Margin [dB] 6.30 15.40
Attenuation [dB] 17.90 0.00
Power [dBm] 13.00 7.60

Maybe I am getting less congestion/crosstalk now?