Not as high speed with Origin BB as I had with Plusnet

Hi All,

I am new here. I have used forums before, mainly to solve problems, reaching out to people with more experience than me on the particular subject.

I was with Plusnet on Fibre for about 2 years. I could reach DL speeds of 65-70Mbps (recorded over WiFi with Speednet) with relatively low pings ~10-15ms as well (my son, playing PS4, loved it).
When it came to renew, around a month ago, I realised they were going to increase the fee, so I started looking elsewhere.
The choice was between Sky, Vodafone or Talk Talk. Out it came Origin Broadband, out of the blue, from one of the comparison sites.
Their sales people were responding quite fast and I saw they were rated high in some reviewing sites.

I went for the Origin Max Fibre, where I was expecting comparative speeds, both DL and UL and ping latencies to what I was getting with Plusnet.
I ordered also an expensive router (ASUS DSL-AC68U) from them, thinking ahead of time, after the 18 months period, when I could re-use the router without being locked to the provider (for instance Plusnet's free router cannot be used with any other provider, as it is locked to them).

I got the router two or three days before the D-day, so I tried pluggin the router even while with Plusnet, to see if it was working (it did, though I did not manage to achieve the similar speeds I could get with my cheapo Plusnet router.
I thought this was due to the end of the service, they were winding down....?!

The first week with Origin was so & so. High latency figures (in the 50-60ms), low DL speeds, close to 40Mb, frequent dropouts.
As I work away from home, I could only check the speeds at the end of the week, so I mastered a way to monitor the speeds regularly, even when I was away, providing the line was up and running. I connected a raspberry pi (with home assistant running on it) via LAN into the router, and interrogated Speednet-CLI every 10 minutes with a python script, recorded the speeds (DL and UL) and stored them into an InfluxDB database, which I can display with InfluxDB viewer very easily and even remotely.

Talking of bad news. I had no internet at all for one day and repeating drop-outs in the middle of several nights (I have a server, which I would like to run with a static IP address, which Origin provides me with, but with dropouts it is difficult to get continuity of service - this server, running on a Synology NAS, tells me when there is a dropout and when the line comes back up - So I know exactly when the Broadband line drops out).

I thought I would leave it for the first couple of weeks to settle things down, given the new service. Though I don;t quite understand why that should be.

The frequency of the dropouts, once every night, more or less, and the fact that the router did not go back online quickly (I had to manually turn it back on after turning it off with the button), made me start thinking the router was at fault.
I contacted Origin several times, I know pretty much the names of all of the technical guys there. Some are friendly and helpful, Do not ask to talk to Adam or Tim. They are the worse ones.

Anyways, as I had not been sent a cheap router, as well as the expensive one (£150) I bought from Origin, I could not try if the router was indeed faulty.

After having a rather stable period for 1 and half week, reaching though a max speed of 50Mbps (peak) DL and 18-19Mbps UL, I had 3 dropouts in the middle of the night, 3 nights in a row, while I was away.
I had instructed my son to restart the router, to get things going.

This was the last straw. I bought a cheap TP-Link router, phoned Origin, who were still sorting things out with OR, apparently, but they never contact me, to update me on the progress or even check if things are going well at my end, unless I call them for problems.

Since I connected the new router, things are going better, no dropouts
The DL speeds jumped up from 40-50Mbps which the old router recorded (though I had constant dropouts) to 59-62Mbps, with pings of 10-20ms.
I still record high line attenuation, I think.
Upstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 19000 59998
Max Rate (Kbps) 24320 61439
SNR Margin (dB) 9.1 6.4
Line Attenuation (dB) 20.5 9.9
Errors (Pkts) 0 0

Despite the good news on the stability front, I am still unhappy about the max speed I can achieve with Origin. (only 55Mbps DL over WiFi on a good run, compared to the 65-70Mbps I reached with Plusnet)
I am about to agree with Origin to send the router back and get the cost of it refunded (the technical manager said over the phone they are happy to do that, but I will not send the router until someone will send me an email or something in writing to confirm they will pay for the router).

- Can someone advice me on what steps (technical, political,...) I can take with Origin to have them agree that there could be a fault of some sort, that does not let me reach the high speeds i was getting with Plusnet?
- Is it possible that the DL speed dropped so much when going from a Fibre supplier to another one? Isn't the copper, alluminium, etc.. the same from before? Isn;t the distance from the cabinet the same as it was before? What has changed? How can I tell?

I am getting nowhere when phoning Origin. It feels, whenever I phone, that I am wasting their time ("Ah, I can see the file, wow, this is going to tak e a long time!!!", and this after 3-35 minutes of waiting on a musical line), whereas I only want to get back to where I was before, one month and a bit in the service, and a lot of hours spent tweaking something that should come already tweaked.

I'd appreciate some thoughts on how I can go about approaching this, and if I should live with the current situation, accepting the technical issue has finally been resolved by replacing the router? Or if I should escalate the matter because I cannot achieve the same speed I could achieve with Plusnet?

Thanks
Jo

Edited by deleted (Tue 19-Nov-19 00:50:29)

Hi Jo, welcome to the forums.

I can�t help much as it�s sleep time for me, but I can explain how you have got to this unsatisfactory position. Which might help you when others turn up during the day.

First, unless things have changed, ASUS modem/routers have a generally bad reputation on these forums, the modem component being far from good. Though IIRC the latest one whatever it is may not be too bad. Plusnet were not �winding you down�, just an inferior modem to theirs.

It is possible you have the OK one but it is simply faulty. IIRC the complaints about ASUS modems were slowness, not dropouts.

The pure routers are very good, I had one myself, though the GUI was not particularly easy to play with, wanting to reboot every time you altered anything where other makes just adjusted in-flight for most things.

Second, your line has almost certainly been banded at 60Mbps (speed capped), the clue being the 59998 downstream sync. If a re-sync has been consistently giving that exact sync that is proved. This explains why your new modem/router is not reaching Plusnet speeds.

This will be because of the frequent re-sync�s. It is what the Openreach DLM on FTTC does on unstable lines, instead of the ADSLx type BT Wholesale one that adjusted the sync-time downstream SNRM to slow the line.

Given stability for a while Openreach DLM does usually remove the cap. But not always. The first removal is unlikely to be a full release, and can take two or more weeks to happen. Subsequent ones can be at intervals of only a few days until it gets back to what you had before.

For this to happen, avoid re-syncs as much as possible, though an occasional one should not be disastrous. I�ve been there, done that! More than once.

If you are on a TalkTalk Business Wholesale connection it is also possible they have a default setting of more stability than Plusnet, which could reduce your best sync, but that depends on several other factors, but that is a topic in its own right.

I hope that helps explain things, but it doesn�t solve it for you I�m afraid. Lights out time for me for now.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 19-Nov-19 01:35:00)

Not a very good review here: https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/originbroadband.com

I would avoid origin company if I were u.

Thanks Roberto.
I have done a few manual syncs with the new TPLink router in the last couple of days.
Hopefully OpenReach will remove the cap soon. I will stop resyncing.

As i said before, even with the ASUS router, I had managed to achieve some sort of stability at lower speed (50Mbps max DL) for around 1 and half week without ever resyncing.
Then, for three nights in a row the router got stuck with this found in the log [" dnsmasq[239]: Maximum number of concurrent DNS queries reached (max: 150)"] no Internet in the house, and reboot to get Internet going again.

So, from the sound of your response, it feels like I should wait a few more weeks, return the ASUS router and get my money back for it, and hopefully I should be back to where "I belong" in terms of speed, soon....

Yep, one of those is evidently mine....

Unfortunately I am with them for the next 17 months -ish.
If you can recommend a way to easily jump ship without paying any penalty, please share

Edited by deleted (Tue 19-Nov-19 08:57:30)

Lesson are learned! Always read the review first before sign up. God, 17 months is a hell long time to get out of a jail free!

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Lesson are learned! Always read the review first before sign up. God, 17 months is a hell long time to get out of a jail free!

The OP did read some reviews that were positive. The problem with the Internet is that you can get overwhelmed by reviews both positive and negative and it can be difficult to weed the truth out of them.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Lesson are learned! Always read the review first before sign up. ....

I was hoping to get a more constructive discussion on why I get a lower speed than I had before.

I agree this should not happen, but it sounds like it does happen whichever supplier you go with.
I experienced the same when I moved from BT to Sky, then to Plusnet (first Fibre). I never tried TalkTalk, but I heard same horror stories about them....

Just a side story, relevant to the matter.
I lived in France for 18 months in around 7 years ago. One of the cheapest offers for Broadband and TV and telephone all bundled together from Free (a french ISP) for less than 20 euro per month at the time (including landline costs), allowed me to reach 16Mbps DL with very low latency, and they gave me also the NAS where I could download stuff onto.
Though we think things are worse at the other side of the Channel, when I received the two boxes (router and NAS) I plugged everything in myself and it all worked (credentials were all setup and no porky pies related to Open Reach, this and that, were given to me - it all just worked reliably from day one).

In UK OpenReach own the lines, while paperwork companies sort out the bills for us, no wonder we will not be able to find a single Broadband company capable of providing a decent service which works out of the box.

In UK OpenReach own the lines, while paperwork companies sort out the bills for us, no wonder we will not be able to find a single Broadband company capable of providing a decent service which works out of the box.

That you are having problems doesn't mean that you can extend that to everyone. There are many including myself that have had few if any problems with their broadband. "It just works" is the experience of many if not a large majority of users.

If they have offered to give you your money back for the Asus router I would send it back as soon as possible because it has been the main reason for your speed problems. The ASUS DSL-AC68U is notoriously bad for causing low speeds and instability on VDSL2 lines, it has an inferior VDSL chipset (MediaTek I believe) which is bad news, you stated that even while still on PlusNet the speed had dropped with the Asus modem/router, then after changing to Origin which causes a DLM reset and removal of G.Inp, then once the line starts dropping frequently DLM will act to reduce the speeds further.

Now with the TPLink modem/router things are a lot better, that has the preferred Broadcom VDSL chipset, however as Robertos has said, you now appear to banded at 60Mbps.I wouldn't do manual resyncs, it won't help, you could ask Origin to request a DLM reset, some but not all ISPs can do this as it is a trial with Openreach.

In my opinion that model of Asus modem/router is not fit for purpose and should never have sold. I have read that it doesn't meet the specifications required for Openreach VDSL2 lines.

Also if it really is the case of just changing billing firms when you switch provider why would there be any performance difference?

Remember Openreach only run the network to the telephone exchange, thereafter the ISP has a influence on what you get.

I am surprised they haven�t gone bankrupt by now. They splashed out on a relatively large(ish) call centre near where I work in Manvers at the start of 2018. Sounds like they up and left one day owning money to every man and his dog at the end of 2018. Also it sounds like they laid lots of staff off just before last Christmas with no notice promising to pay, and then never paying them.

I believe they are now hauled up in some dump in Rotherham.

Years ago they were a respected and renowned company in Doncaster. They used the digital region network council white elephant and had a knowledgeable boutique like service. Things started to go wrong from the looks after digital region failed. Sounds like they have a party boy director who has run it into the ground on a champagne life style. If you can escape I would.

Fair enough.

Note that, having spotted around 10Mbps difference, compared to Plusnet, I started complaining with Origin about it, and solved the issue on my own, by buying another router, realising the router was not fit for purpose from the very beginning.

I am generally OK with that, when it i done in good faith from the ISP.
Here on the forum I am getting consistently bad judgments about the ASUS routers, the ISP was telling me that router was the best they had seen and avoided to entertain in any discussion around the router.
So, not a big roblem for me, I ignored the ISP and bought the TPLink router, 10% the cost of the Asus one.

I am thinking of the JoeBlog in the street without the technical capabilities most of us in the forum have.
How are they going to work out whether they were given the right or wrong router and whether they are overpaying?

My considerations around the ISPs and the "monopoly" from OpenReach have some evidence from different surveys, by the way.

1. Guardian from 7 months ago
2. Consumer and Society (2017)

ISPs and the "monopoly" from OpenReach

Openreach don't have a monopoly although they may in some areas be the only supplier due to alternatives having chosen not to go there. There are many other suppliers such as Virgin Media, KCom as was, Hyperoptic, CityFibre, Gigaclear, et al.

Nevertheless I'm pleased to read that you've sorted out your problems, not that these had anything to do with Openreach but rather poor information from Origin.

Andrew,

The problem is complex, so many variables, and I did not want to touch the sensitivity of anybody working in any of the ISP, who are in this forum.

I agree, ISPs have an influence (should this word be changed to "competence"?) to provide what a consumer get, ultimately.
And this is determined by the size of the ISP, the resources they can put on it.

I struggle to understand how the process of going from Plusnet to Origin can cause the broadband speed to drop. I get the bad router, but how is that informing the line to drop the speed? Is that an automatic process? Sorry, I am not an expert on that.

Is that process something that Origin are able to control? I am constantly told they need to raise tickets with OpenReach and I get no responses back fro Origin

Thanks for your time.

Jo

This is what I am in the process of doing. The router is already in the box ready to go.
I want to get an official statement from Origin that they will be paying me back. You never know.

Good to know that I mde the right choice. Let's hope it will result in getting my speed back up to 68-70Mbps

In reply to a post by gigio68:

I struggle to understand how the process of going from Plusnet to Origin can cause the broadband speed to drop. I get the bad router, but how is that informing the line to drop the speed? Is that an automatic process?

In order to send data over a copper line, that data has to be converted into an analogue modulated signal - think of it as a set of "tones" which are changing constantly. The signal degrades as it travels, losing strength and getting mixed in with increasing amounts of noise. At the far end, the receiver has to try to extract data back out of all the mush. The two ends negotiate with each other to adjust the data speed on each of the tones to attempt to squeeze the best possible overall data rate out of the link. That is indeed an automatic process.

How well this works depends on the quality of the electronics and the software at each end. A bad modem won't be able to achieve as high rates as a good modem.

If the line quality degrades (reduced signal or increased noise), the signal can become so poor that the data is received with excessive errors. Then the connection is dropped and a fresh negotiation takes place.

So there is a second automated process called Dynamic Line Management (DLM) which occurs in the background over a longer time period. A system at the exchange end monitors the reliability of the link - how often the connection is dropped and re-established. If the connection has poor reliability then it may instruct its end not to allow speed to be negotiated above a certain point, to try and prevent too many connection drops and renegotiations. Over time (days or weeks), this "cap" may be adjusted up or down in response to the line reliability.

In reply to a post by gigio68:

I struggle to understand how the process of going from Plusnet to Origin can cause the broadband speed to drop. I get the bad router, but how is that informing the line to drop the speed? Is that an automatic process? Sorry, I am not an expert on that.

Yes, it is automatic by the line control software at the far end. If a line is disconnecting frequently then the "Dynamic Line Management" (DLM) will reduce its speed by various methods and possibly introduce interleaving which normally increases latency (ping times).

This is because the slower a line is connected, the lower the error rate. With high error rates the throughput suffers due to the need to re-transmit, and retransmission puts extra load on the modem and other components at the cabinet or exchange, (cabinet for FTTC & G.Fast, exchange for ADSLx). That extra load at that end can, when accumulated from several lines, slow the whole system for users who don't have a problem.

If a router is causing frequent re-syncs by causing high error rates, or dropping the line because of some fault, then DLM takes such action.

Is that process something that Origin are able to control? I am constantly told they need to raise tickets with OpenReach and I get no responses back fro Origin

No, Origin have no direct control. As I posted earlier, you may well be on a re-sold TalkTalk Business Wholesale connection, and Origin reporting to them rather than direct to Openreach. See this news report, and read the 33 comments plus replies. ((You have to scroll right down past some guff to reach them). Many seem to have had the same disconnection problems. I wonder if they all bought the ASUS DSL router?

Even TalkTalk do not have full control on FTTC. But they do have some.

Re them selling the ASUS, you posted "Here on the forum I am getting consistently bad judgments about the ASUS routers, the ISP was telling me that router was the best they had seen and avoided to entertain in any discussion around the router", a cynic might wonder if they had picked up a large number very cheap because they weren't selling well. That could also explain why they don't want to discuss it.

When you send it back, make sure you get proof of postage. The Post Office provide that service free, and I think also track it and can provide proof of delivery. But maybe the latter is only "special delivery" which costs money. It might be worth the extra spend.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 19-Nov-19 18:02:01)

Thanks for your explanation of DLM and for the article/link/comments.
I wish they sent me that letter now....

Thanks for the explanation. It is clear now.

There must be a process ("certification" might be the wrong word?) that a modem/router has to go through before being allowed to be marketed for FTTC?
Who controls that an ISP provides modem/routers that are fit for purpose?
Does OFCOM have anything to do with it?

Perhaps Origin might have got a batch of cheap routers, that nobody wants to touch for whateve reason, and they are reselling them for good ones (coming to think of it, there is a weird naming similarity between ASUS RT-AC68U, with very good reviews and ASUS DSL-AC68U, which is the one Origin sent to me, charging me similar price to what Amazon sells it at.

Anyhow, let's hope to get the money back.

This market is a jungle.... Hopefully 5G will take it all...

Generally the Asus routers (without modems) are pretty good - but with a couple of flies in the ointment like the DSL-AC68U with a modem in it.

There is an Openreach approved list https://uno.help/knowledge-base/article/openreach-ap... I'm sure someone on here knows the test spec. but I would guess it would focus on compatibility with the Openreach lines so as not to cause interference/damage etc rather than checking fastest speed or stability.

Hope your sync speed improves once settled down.

Do you know if Origin are directly providing your connection to the internet proper? When I was with them a while back they were just reselling Vodafone BB but think they were moving away from them - my sync was the same (as it should roughly be) but throughput was a different story.

Edited by adrenalize_ (Tue 19-Nov-19 20:53:25)

In reply to a post by adrenalize_:

Do you know if Origin are directly providing your connection to the internet proper?

Easy way to test: go to http://bgp.he.net/

This will show you your IP address, and which Autonomous System (ISP network) is announcing that address block to the Internet.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by adrenalize_:

Do you know if Origin are directly providing your connection to the internet proper?

Easy way to test: go to http://bgp.he.net/

This will show you your IP address, and which Autonomous System (ISP network) is announcing that address block to the Internet.

Interesting list. UK NETWORKS.

Origin Broadband seem to be in there, they appeared along side the static IP address they provide me with.

I am confused with this list. It contains many more players than the ISP in UK, at least the ones I have seen in different forums and broadband sites.

At random, UNO are not in that list.

Not all of those are ISPs. They are all networks with their own Autonomous System number - this includes organizations which are "multi-homed". This means that they have their own IP address space and "announce" it to two or more upstream ISPs, so they get load sharing and redundancy without having to change IP addresses.

As for UNO: either they are in this list under a different name, or they get a different ISP to announce their address space on their behalf.

More interesting: https://bgp.he.net/AS60257
"AS60257 announces bogons."

This is not a sign of a properly-run ISP operation.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

More interesting: https://bgp.he.net/AS60257
"AS60257 announces bogons."

This is not a sign of a properly-run ISP operation.

I did not understand the meaning of that.... Far beyond me. Should I worry? Should I cancel my Static IP address, going back to DDNS to run my own server?