FTTPoD vs a Community Fibre Partnership

Hi all.

I work as a sole proprietor from home and have been keen to get higher Broadband speeds for some time. In many ways I'm quite fortunate to have a particularly good FTTC connection, and certainly can't complain about having slow broadband.

However, I'm not particularly confident that I'm going to see Openreach deploying commercial FTTP in our, 2010 built, housing development any time soon. The development (Kingsbrook Park) is located in Canterbury and is rather large with a combination of terraced houses and higher density apartments. I'm on Cabinet 73, less than 100m.

I've contacted both Cerberus Networks and Amvia, unfortunately I've not heard a word from Cerberus in weeks. However, Amvia called me the following day and we started to discuss options for FTTPoD. I've taken the decision to start by getting the Openreach survey conducted, whilst it will cost I'm prepared to pay to get an accurate figure. Amvia are also helping me to apply for a Gigabit Voucher.

Depending on the Openreach survey we may proceed with getting FTTPoD, however, it could in all likelihood be far too expensive even with the voucher.

Amvia's FTTPoD requires me to sign up for a 12-month contract at £126/m on a 330/30 product. Quite similar to what I've seen offered by Cerberus Networks. I'm not sure if anyone on the TTB Forum have dealt with Amvia and if they've been happy with their service? So far I've been impressed and they respond to emails quickly and have personally called me a number of times to provide more details.

Are all FTTPoD orders limited to 330/30 as I've seen a listing on Openreach for a 330/50 product?

I'm currently on Zen and am very happy with their support and service which has been flawless since getting FTTC in 2014. I'm a bit reluctant to move away from them, but in this case I have little choice and could, I believe, return to Zen after my 12-month Amvia contract.

However, my main reason for posting here is that I'm wondering if I've made the correct decision going the FTTPoD route. I'll have too eat the Openreach £300 survey cost if I decide not to proceed with the FTTPoD order. Though, the construction cost may actually be too expensive anyway. In either case, I'm wondering if it would not be better to investigate the Community Fibre Partnership?

This option certainty seems like a lot more work on my part and I've got the added difficulty of trying to gain support and funding from residents, many of whom already have FTTC. However, the Community Fibre Partnership would result, I think, in lower costs for each household, compared to FTTPoD and many more properties would get fibre rather than the few properties I think my FTTPoD will pass. In addition to this I would be able to simply order a native FTTP product from Zen, which would be cheaper than Amvia's FTTPoD.

I've started by contacting our developments management company, which is incorporated and run by a few of the other residents. I've sent them details about the Community Fibre Partnership including some of the befits it would provide, even for resident with FTTC. Especially those who get slower FTTC due to distance. I suspect it will take a while with the management company to get things started, especially at this time of year.

But I thought it may be good to ask on the TBB community what their opinions or possibly first hand experience with a Community Fibre Partnership are?

I will also update this post as I get more information about my FTTPoD order, I'm still waiting on a date for the Openreach survey which I'm hoping will be in late January.

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 01:01:38)

Approximately 1km from the DSLAM to the aggregation node plus distance from DSLAM to the property, may give some idea of the likely cost of FOD

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

I've contacted both Cerberus Networks and Amvia, unfortunately I've not heard a word from Cerberus in weeks.

That's unusual, Cerberus are generally good. Are you dealing with Bob H? Did you get your free desktop quote yet? Sometimes that can take quite a few weeks to come through, and there won't be much more they can do until that happens.

Amvia are resellers of Cerberus' service, so they will just order through Cerberus on your behalf.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

Depending on the Openreach survey we may proceed with getting FTTPoD, however, it could in all likelihood be far too expensive even with the voucher.

It's certainly a lottery. There's a table here of how forum users' final prices compared to their initial desktop quotes. It would be great if you share your figures when you have them.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

Amvia's FTTPoD requires me to sign up for a 12-month contract at £126/m on a 330/30 product. Quite similar to what I've seen offered by Cerberus Networks. I'm not sure if anyone on the TTB Forum have dealt with Amvia and if they've been happy with their service? So far I've been impressed and they respond to emails quickly and have personally called me a number of times to provide more details.

As I say, Amvia just resell the Cerberus service. I prefer not to have a middleman between me and the service. If there's a problem, as a Cerberus customer I can raise it directly on Cerberus' ticket system.

However, if you are taking a bundle of business services from Amvia then it may make sense to take the connectivity through them as well.

The image you showed says £127.50 per month. Is that plus VAT or inclusive? Cerberus is £100+VAT = £120 per month.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

Are all FTTPoD orders limited to 330/30 as I've seen a listing on Openreach for a 330/50 product?

Sadly 330/30 only. Even though the product may exist at Openreach, doesn't mean that BT Enterprise (formerly BT Wholesale) sell it. So you'll need to take your first year on 330/30, and regrade to 330/50 afterwards - or to one of the newer speeds coming out in a few months.

Actually, you *can* regrade to to 1000/220 or 500/165 during the initial term, but there's a £1000 setup fee for that (whereas after 1 year it's £500). And the monthly rental is very high.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

I'm currently on Zen and am very happy with their support and service which has been flawless since getting FTTC in 2014. I'm a bit reluctant to move away from them, but in this case I have little choice and could, I believe, return to Zen after my 12-month Amvia contract.

That is correct. You could even take Zen FTTP as soon as FTTPoD is installed, but then you'd have two ONTs and would be paying for both services for 12 months.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

However, my main reason for posting here is that I'm wondering if I've made the correct decision going the FTTPoD route. I'll have too eat the Openreach £300 survey cost if I decide not to proceed with the FTTPoD order. Though, the construction cost may actually be too expensive anyway. In either case, I'm wondering if it would not be better to investigate the Community Fibre Partnership?

The cost-per-property will likely be lower, but you would be covering a larger area of properties, so the total cost could be higher or lower even after allowing for Openreach contributing 50% of the cost.

You should be able to combine gigabit vouchers - I believe it's up to 10 x £500 residential vouchers for every business voucher. I don't know how that process works for CFP. Does everyone who applies for a voucher have to commit to taking an FTTP service from some provider, and who manages that process? It's simple with FTTPoD, because you apply for the voucher through the same service provider who delivers the FTTPoD order.

As you say, the hard part is getting sufficient buy-in. Do you insist that everybody in the covered area contributes, and if one person holds out, you drop the entire project? Or do some contribute, and some not? Even those who don't contribute may still get access to FTTP at the end, as it's delivered at the level of fibre manifolds serving multiple properties.

Hi

You will only know if you've made the right decision going FTTP on Demand when you get the price back I always think if you can not afford or are not willing to lose the survey fee, you can't afford FTTP on Demand anyway.

Yes all FTTP on Demand orders seem to come with 12 months of 330/30, yet according to Openreach pricing 330/50 products are the same price and the cost to regrade is pounds. So I've no idea why they do that. After the first 12 months you will of course be able to buy your FTTP from anyone and get 330/50.

I would think trying to get a community program going if everyone already has FTTC and okayish speeds would be an uphill struggle, yes it is cheaper per person because the costs are spread out but you will need plenty on board. Most people shop around for their broadband to save a few quid a month so will not be too keen to pay over and above for FTTP, which has a more limited choice when shopping around, and they might just sign up for a slower service anyway over FTTP and get the same speed they had before so makes it hard sell by you. It will be a more complex process and probably take longer.

Community schemes work best where people are struggling on a meg or less and they can't stream or do anything much, then people are willing to pay to sort it out.

Get the survey quote back and see how much it is. If you can speak to the surveyor they will normally tell you which other homes are on the same distribution point and will also be enabled for FTTP because of your order. You can always approach those neighbours (they will usually be close neighbours so you may already know them) and see if they are willing to contribute and enter into your own informal agreement with them, and just be prepared to foot the cost yourself if they drop out, even though of course they will still get the service.

Remember time scales which I think is a sort of hidden cost. If you did everything as fast as you could now with accepting agreements etc, you'd be lucky if you had FTTP for next Christmas. That's a year or more closer to perhaps getting it installed for free by Openreach or another supplier. Also remember with FTTP on Demand you will pay up front for the construction charges, and will likely need to wait a year or so until you get any benefit from spending all that money whilst you wait weeks and weeks for Openreach to do something, which can be frustrating, you also have nothing in the contract you can use to complain or speed up the process. Also your 12 month contract which starts when you get connected at £126/month in say a years time is going to seem even more expensive given FTTP for those that have it already will only fall in price or offer faster speeds for the same price. So just something to factor in.

Otherwise, FTTP on Demand, if you are wanting it for business use certainly, is a great way to get a speed increase, plus the extra reliability it brings, for a lot less over time than a leased line, although with a leased line you would get better service level agreements of course for that extra price. Good luck, let us know what the survey comes back with.

Hopefully someone who has been through the community route can give some advice.

Regards

Phil

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 10:28:42)

Hi

Amvia are resellers of Cerberus' service, so they will just order through Cerberus on your behalf.

It was in my head that they might have been, wasn't sure. I wonder if they have some agreement where Cerberus avoid competing against Amvia hence the OP hasn't heard back?

Yes unless a very good reason, makes no sense to put another link in the chain.

Regards

Phil

You should certainly try to get a price for both before you make your decision, its not always obvious what will be the cheapest. Include only a small number of properties (you and your immediate neighbours) when trying to get a CFP quote as Openreach will include all properties on the same Distribution Point (aka DP) as you anyway and they will part fund some of the cost as well.

You should also be able to get some additional funding from Kent County Council as well (unless they have ended their offer).

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 10:34:04)

Thanks for all the replies, some very useful information!

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Approximately 1km from the DSLAM to the aggregation node plus distance from DSLAM to the property, may give some idea of the likely cost of FOD

Is this based on an average of other TBB users who've had FTTPoD? I won't lie I'm certainly hoping the aggregation node is closer, as we are about 1Km from the exchange itself.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Amvia are resellers of Cerberus' service, so they will just order through Cerberus on your behalf.

I did not know Amvia are just resellers of Cerberus' service. Good to keep that in mind. James C was my contact at Amvia and his communication has been good. Though, I was never offered a free desktop survey. they said the only way to get an accurate figure would be the paid survey.

Update on my FTTPoD Order:

Things have made a rather sudden turn. There is a new 16 property residential development being built off of our existing road, Stonebridge Road. Construction has begun and is scheduled to be completed late next year. I had contacted the project manager a few weeks ago to find out how the new build would be receiving broadband. I was pretty sure they were just going to connect the 16 new homes to our existing FTTC cabinet due to the proximity. However, the project manager has informed me that Openreach are going to deliver FTTP to the development instead.

Here is a image which illustrates the new builds location and proximity to Stonebridge Road residents and here is a site plan of the new build.

I spoke with James at Amvia and we came to the agreement that the best route forward is to wait until the development is finished before attempting a FTTPoD order as the development could change the cost of FTTPoD or alternatively there may be a chance Openreach bring native FTTP further down Stonebridge Road in the coming year. I would prefer not to buy my own fibre only to have native FTTP in 12 months time.

However, due to this development I've decided to get as many of the residents here who are interested to sign up to our Community Fibre Partnership. It will take a couple of weeks to set up things up to help explain FTTP to the residents and have a way to allow them to register their interest. For now this will just be to get an idea of how many residents would be interested in FTTP and submit this to Openreach. Who would then be able to provide a build cost. However, I would hope this would also show Openreach that there is interest for FTTP in our development which would be good.

I'm hoping there may be scope to work with Openreach to simultaneously deliver FTTP to the new build and our Community Fibre Partnership as I would think this would be the most cost effective option for both Openreach and the residents. Ultimately Openreach would be running dedicated FTTP infrastructure to the start of our road anyway, less then 100m away from myself.

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 16:55:04)

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

There is a new 16 property residential development being built off of our existing road, Stonebridge Road. Construction has begun and is scheduled to be completed late next year. I had contacted the project manager a few weeks ago to find out how the new build would be receiving broadband. I was pretty sure they were just going to connect the 16 new homes to our existing FTTC cabinet due to the proximity. However, the project manager has informed me that Openreach are going to deliver FTTP to the development instead

Just be aware that FTTP is only 'free' (same cost as copper) to the developer if they're building at least 30 homes. Vast majority of developers will go for the cheapest connectivity option (ie copper if its cheaper) so i would take the devlopers words with a pinch of salt since they're building only 16 homes...

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 17:20:28)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Just be aware that FTTP is only 'free' (same cost as copper) to the developer if they're building at least 30 homes.

That is interesting and a little concerning. As I said, I truly did expect the development to be FTTC connected, so it was surprising to find out from the project manager that it would be FTTP. However, he did say that this was the information Openreach had provided him. I just hope there has not been some miscommunication between FTTP and FTTC.

I'm not sure if it makes any difference but the developer for the new build is Canterbury City Council itself and not a private company.

I've contact him again to find out if there is any scope to set up some line of communication between the developer, Openreach and our Community Fibre Partnership to try work together to deliver FTTP as part of a single project. However, they are now away until early January so will have to wait to hear back.

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 18:46:26)

If the developer is confused between "fibre broadband" and "FTTP", they wouldn't be the first or the last

Still, it's not impossible that OR are going straight to fibre for strategic reasons. What's the point of putting in copper today, only to replace it with fibre in a few years? Plus, OR strategically wants to move people off PSTN soon, and LLU whenever possible. The LLU problem goes away if there's no copper.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

As I said, I truly did expect the development to be FTTP connect, so it was surprising to find out from the project manager that it would be FTTP.

There is no such thing as FTTP connect. FTTC = Fibre To The Cabinet.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

FTTP connect

That was a typo, fixed now.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Still, it's not impossible that OR are going straight to fibre for strategic reasons.

That would make sense, especially in the long-term, and it is what I'm hoping to be the case. But I will have to wait to hear back to confirm no error has been made. In terms of the low number of new builds, I do wonder if someone at Openreach may have had the forethought that as our development is relatively new and has I imagine clear ducts, deploying FTTP to both the new build and some of the existing properties would actually be financially worthwhile. Though I worry that would be too logical for Openreach

I've received confirmation of our Community Fibre Partnership and now have a reference number. Next we have to start submitting all the addresses that would like to receive FTTP. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have any way to contact Openreach to find out if they have any plans for FTTP deployment to both the new build and our estate. As on the off chance they do, a Community Fibre Partnership may not even be necessary.

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Dec-19 18:55:30)

Hi

That would make sense, especially in the long-term, and it is what I'm hoping to be the case. But I will have to wait to hear back to confirm no error has been made. In terms of the low number of new builds, I do wonder if someone at Openreach may have had the forethought that as our development is relatively new and has I imagine clear ducts, deploying FTTP to both the new build and some of the existing properties would actually be financially worthwhile.

It sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me . Whilst it might make sense to us to do some extra properties it doesn't really work like that, and wouldn't really save Openreach any money as an incentive for them to include more than they need to.

In terms of work, it doesn't make it any less work for your estate just because they happen to be doing some other houses nearby. Also with the new build properties the developer will do most of the work for them in preparation, not so for your estate of course that is already built.

Openreach have installed FTTP for hundreds of thousands of new build estates and I bet there is not a single example of them doing a few extra homes just because they were close by and Openreach felt like it.

Regards

Phil

OR have been doing a quite a few retro new site FTTP builds recently, so not impossible to believe, but not aware of any thing imminent here.

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Openreach have installed FTTP for hundreds of thousands of new build estates and I bet there is not a single example of them doing a few extra homes just because they were close by and Openreach felt like it.

I agree with that. The same applies to FTTPoD: they could easily add a few more CBTs for nearby properties at the same time, but they don't.

The main reason for the OP to wait is that after the new-build estate is done, there *might* be a splitter in a suitable location to connect to, so that FTTPoD would be cheaper. But you're talking a year's wait for the new-build estate, and likely 6-12 months after that for the FTTPoD order to be delivered. You also never know when Canterbury might be earmarked for Fibre First, in the 18-month forward plan.

At the end of the day: if fibre is important to you, you may as well get the FTTPoD quote now, and accept there's a risk the cost might have to be written off over a couple of years. Equally though, those on a solid 80/20 FTTP may be the last to be upgraded to full fibre.

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

the developer for the new build is Canterbury City Council itself and not a private company.

If the council is paying for these 16 new builds, then its almost guaranteed they will go for the cheapest connectivity option (copper) irrespective of how much extra FTTP would cost. Its the developer who decides whether copper or fibre will be installed on a new build estate, not Openreach. Obviously if they were paying for 30+ homes then it would be a bit of a no brainer going for FTTP at no additional cost.

Happy to be proved wrong though!

Edited by deleted (Sat 21-Dec-19 13:17:12)

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

It sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me

Very much so

In reply to a post by candlerb:

The main reason for the OP to wait is that after the new-build estate is done, there *might* be a slitter in a suitable location to connect to, so that FTTPoD would be cheaper. But you're talking a year's wait for the new-build estate

This is exactly my thinking, I was fortunate enough to cancel my FTTPoD with Amvia before paying for the survey. I don't particularly wish to pay for a survey now and then another next year. I don't mind waiting until next year, once the development is more or less finished and then start up the FTTPoD again. If there is a chance to save quite a large amount I would prefer to do that. Not like my connection is terrible at the moment.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

If the council is paying for these 16 new builds, then its almost guaranteed they will go for the cheapest connectivity option (copper) irrespective of how much extra FTTP would cost.

Echoing my own thoughts, however, I'm just stating what the project manager told me and his email specifically stated: "I am advised that the broadband provided to the new units on Kingsmead Field will be FTTP."

Obviously there could be some confusion between FTTC and FTTP (would not be surprised) though I would hope that a project manager for a housing development, regardless of whether it is council or private, would understand the difference. Though the new build is by the council more than half of the homes will be put onto the market.

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

In terms of work, it doesn't make it any less work for your estate just because they happen to be doing some other houses nearby.

I think I'm a bit split on this. As depending on where the aggregation node is, a non-insignificant part of getting FTTP to this new build would be getting fibre from where ever the AGN is to Stonebridge Road. Obviously, taking that fibre further and retro-fitting our estate would increase the cost. Yet as, witchunt and candlerb OR have done this occasionally.

I'm only hoping that by showing to Openreach that there are residents in our estate who would be interested in FTTP that this may increase the chance of us getting FTTP. Personally I would be happy to even help fund a portion of this as part of a Community Fibre Partnership and if I can get enough residents on-board, this may further convince OR as their would be some community funding towards the FTTP and they would not solely be paying.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Canterbury might be earmarked for Fibre First, in the 18-month forward plan.

I suppose if we believe the present PM and their 'full fibre for all by 2025' pledge this would certainly be possible. But I won't be holding my breath. But would not mind being proven wrong. As part our Community Fibre Partnership we are also asking people to register their interest on the Fibre First website.

Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Dec-19 02:08:24)

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Openreach have installed FTTP for hundreds of thousands of new build estates and I bet there is not a single example of them doing a few extra homes just because they were close by and Openreach felt like it.

Thats exactly what�s happened with us. Later parts of our development are having FTTP installed as standard, and Openreach have recently put FTTP into the 30+ homes built as part of earlier phases built in 2015/16. They originally wanted the residents to pay, but eventually decided to retrofit FTTP as �part of their commercial rollout�.

They even put FTTP into a phase of the development built around 2012, covering another 30+ homes that already had a fast FTTC service.

Map showing EO, FTTC and FTTP lines, all now FTTP

Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Dec-19 11:50:46)

In reply to a post by Fugitive_Legacy:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

If the council is paying for these 16 new builds, then its almost guaranteed they will go for the cheapest connectivity option (copper) irrespective of how much extra FTTP would cost.

Echoing my own thoughts, however, I'm just stating what the project manager told me and his email specifically stated: "I am advised that the broadband provided to the new units on Kingsmead Field will be FTTP."

I would more inclined to believe the project manager if it was a private company paying for the connectivity. As others have already said, take what the project manager told you with a pinch of salt - he/she won't be the first one to get FTTC & FTTP mixed up and certainly won't be the last!

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It's not impossible that OR are going straight to fibre for strategic reasons. What's the point of putting in copper today, only to replace it with fibre in a few years?

Interesting related story here. It's not quite the same - this is a build of 30+ plots - but the gist is that Openreach are refusing to install copper, even though this is what the developer asked for and has pre-cabled the houses for.

Good on Openreach for sticking to their guns.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Interesting related story here... Good on Openreach for sticking to their guns.

Given the fact that at some point the new build along with our estate would need to receive FTTP, doing that as a retro-fit for both when at least one could be done during the build seems utterly ridiculous. I completely agree with Openreach's position, either take the fibre, or have no broadband at all. It certainly seems like now is the time for Openreach to stick to their guns, and I respect that. It will take that kind of attitude to force certain developers to stop building any new builds that are not FTTP ready on completion.

As an architect working in Kent, I've seen some truly asinine developers, who have still completed new builds without either FTTC or FTTP and did not seem to either care or understand why this would be an issue for prospective buyers..

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Dec-19 20:27:22)