Neighbour got G.Fast install date, but nothing on openreach

Hi,
I'm in a USO postcode. Neighbour 2 doors away has been given a G.Fast install date of 2 months time in both email and letter from BT. I rang BT and checked the Openreach website for their and my address, but nothing shows there beyond ADSL for any of us.

Is it possible one arm of BT and/or Openreach doesnt know what the other arm is doing?

regards
Patrick.

Do you mean this checker?

If so, it is a BT Wholesale checker, which is why it doesn't recognise LLU phone numbers, and if you read the small print on the Postcode option it tells you it only shows ADSLx results.

If it is a truly Openreach site you are using I expect there is a similar warning. This is because any given postcode can be served by multiple cabinets, and vice versa.

If you take the Address option, then enter just the postcode in that, it gives a drop down list for all addresses with that postcode, (including those with LLU-numbers), and then the correct estimates for each address on that list.

In any case, USO and G.Fast are only related in the sense that if G.Fast is available to an address, by definition the USO does not apply. The address can already get speeds much higher that the 10Mbps minimum that triggers the USO.

G.Fast is an add-on to phone cabinets (PCPs) that already have an FTTC twin and G.Fast is only offered to addresses that can get high FTTC speeds.

Thanks for reply.
I used this checker - https://www.openreach.com/
and went to the correct house within the postcode.
It says same as the http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome#
that only ADSL is available.

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome# says we're on Market A exchange, while Thinkbroadband says we're on a Market B exchange, whatever that means or is relevant.

I suspect G.Fast is being installed, as until it arrives we are in a USO area.

If G. FAST is being installed then there must already be VDSL2 (FTTC). Are both addresses on the same exchange and cabinet?

At the top of the checker it should show a cab number for each Premise, if these are the same, post your post code and Witchunt may be able to tell us what, if anything, is going on.

If there is no Cab number it means you are straight from the exchange (EO line) and the above still applies.

May be FTTC may be FTTC with G-Fast may be nothing!

As I said, under no circumstances does the USO guarantee G.Fast. The (current) provision of G.Fast is only ever to those close to a PCP that has an FTTC twin.

Anyone who can order G.Fast already has access to well over 60Mbps.

That is not to say that FTTC will nor be installed in a USO-qualifying area, but it is only those close to the cabinet that would perhaps be offered G.Fast. And then, probably only at a later date.

Seeing as G.Fast would be an extra and unnecessary cost where FTTC is provided to fulfil USO obligations, in the short term it seems unlikely to me.

I suggest the information you are being given is either wrong, or incomplete.

For instance, FTTC that is installed under schemes such as BDUK tend not to appear on the BT Wholesale or Openreach checkers until after brought into service.

We're 3.5km as the crow flies from the exchange, and ~5km via the line route.
Postcode for both addresses is BS40 5RE.
Report for my telephone number:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2jpam3o9nl3u5g/me.jpg?dl=0
Report for Neighbours telephone number:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/in7y679jrt5axkd/other.jpg?...

Both properties on FTTC, and are so far from the cabinet that ADSL is just as fast. Neither has G.fast (it would be under "Featured Products").

Check again with your neighbour what they've been promised. You can be sure it's not G.fast though. (G.fast has to come from the PCP, and the PCP needs to be within about 300m of the property served)

Are they even sure it's from BT? Not another company like Gigaclear?

I've seen both the email and letter the neighbour received from BT saying "Fibre is coming" (IMO a bit disingenuous advertising).
The letter goes on to say you will receive a speed improvement an no extra cost of ~x3, and we're sending a new router. You can plug new router in now, and we'll contact you on switchover day to enable the improvement.
The router being posted is a "BT Smart Hub 2" which states ADSL, VDSL and G.Fast as in its spec - https://shop.bt.com/products/bt-smart-hub-2-097683-D...

Edited by syncropatrick (Thu 05-Mar-20 13:16:04)

Both of those show VDSL. (Which should say VDSL2).

VDSL2 is FTTC, (Fibre To The Cabinet). From the (FTTC) cabinet to the premises, which goes via the PCP is copper, using VDSL2 rather than ADSL2+, and the speed of up to 80Mbps down, 20Mbps up, depends on that distance.

If the FTTC estimate is as low as those two screenshots show, then G.Fast would not be available to you or your neighbour.

The router will be G.Fast capable, but neither you nor your neighbour will be able to receive it.

Is it possible the VDSL2/FTTC provision is what is new, and what you are waiting for is BT Wholesale to do the switchover?

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 05-Mar-20 13:21:19)

Sounds possibly like they may have offered a free upgrade from ADSL to VDSL to your neighbour, would fit in with companies calling FTTC "Fibre" and the ~3x speed would be about right IF you were getting the full ~24MBps ADSL and COULD get 80MBps VDSL, which of course you can't unfortunately. Maybe not even USO related - I know I should look it up but isn't the USO process where you the end user needs to request it rather than your ISP offering it?

On a different note I see on one.network (roadworks.org) Truespeed communications are doing some tree pruning soon in your road and their website says they are starting the build for your postcode. I'd be more excited about getting FTTP from them!

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

I've seen both the email and letter the neighbour received from BT saying "Fibre is coming" (IMO a bit disingenuous advertising).

It certainly is!

I think what you have received is a normal marketing campaign pushing FTTC (= VDSL on the checker) to ADSL users in areas where FTTC is available. Indeed, I seem to remember reading that BT (retail) were going to be migrating users from ADSL to FTTC where FTTC is available. That's why you'd need a new router.

FTTC a.k.a. "fibre broadband" is already available to you. However in you area, judging by the screenshots, it's not going to be "3 times faster" than ADSL - in fact it will probably be exactly the same speed or maybe even slower. They show you and your neighbour are currently getting 6.5-8Mbps on ADSL, and the FTTC potential speed would be 3-9Mbps.

So sadly, it's nothing to get excited over.

Also: you should kick up a fuss if BT charge you more for this "upgrade" and you end up getting the same speed. If you want to stick with ADSL, you can switch to another ISP, although the number of ISPs who offer ADSL in FTTC-enabled areas is shrinking.

Jinx!

No, FTTC has been available for over a year. Another neighbour, about 300m closer to the exchange, moved from ADSL to it and found his speed dropped, so he moved back. Lucky sod now on Truespeed FTTH 500Mb!

Edited by syncropatrick (Thu 05-Mar-20 13:45:59)

I've been waiting over 18 months for Truespeed to arrive. Their forward planning and pre-install comms are terrible. A litany of their failed attempts to reach us, and false promises.

So does this boil down to BT moving ADSL customers onto VDSL(+?) so they can retire ADSL cabinet kit, and nothing to do with forward planning by BT to pre-empt USO requests from us?

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

No, FTTC has been available for over a year.
�.

Make your mind up . (My bold):-

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

Thanks for reply.
I used this checker - https://www.openreach.com/
and went to the correct house within the postcode.
It says same as the http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome#
that only ADSL is available.

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome# says we're on Market A exchange, while Thinkbroadband says we're on a Market B exchange, whatever that means or is relevant.

I suspect G.Fast is being installed, as until it arrives we are in a USO area.

Coming back to the G.Fast, the answer is no. It isn't. At your distance from the cabinet it would be far slower than FTTC and probably than ADSL2+.

Truespeed if you are ultimately able to get it would of course remove you from the USO spectrum.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 05-Mar-20 14:02:03)

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

So does this boil down to BT moving ADSL customers onto VDSL(+?) so they can retire ADSL cabinet kit, and nothing to do with forward planning by BT to pre-empt USO requests from us?

Sort of . There is no ADSL kit in cabinets. It will be a pre-cursor as you say to ADSLx being removed, but that is from the exchange not cabinets.

The TalkTalk ADSL2+ could well remain there for a while. That's more of a commercial and contractual question between them and BT Group, who could well wish to close that exchange completely in the process of removing PSTN services.

Sounds more likely IMHO.
As bad as your Truespeed experience has been - might be your best option trying to sort something out in the short to medium term.

Ah well, I was hoping I'd see a G.Fast pod appearing on a local pole. BT did do some tree clearing late last year near us on the lane towards the exchange, which got my hopes up.
If we get moved to FTTC I expect speed to drop as it did for the neighbour who tried it.

When Truespeed deliver I'll be with them like a shot (they know they owe me a 300Mb speed upgrade as a thank-you for all the work I did getting the community to sign up for them). Shame I'm 300m outside the easy bits of their install polygon and have been for blinking ages.

If all else fails I'll be submitting a USO request, then hoping it's EE 4G with a supplied router and free aerial.

Thanks all for your help deciphering the details I had.

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

Ah well, I was hoping I'd see a G.Fast pod appearing on a local pole.

FTTrN was an idea which was briefly trialed but discarded.

I presume the reason was if you've brought the fibre all the way to the pole, then you might as well put a cheap CBT on there and run fibre to the property, rather than a G.Fast node which is active equipment requiring power and maintenance.

I just put BS40 5RE into the fibre checker on the Openreach site and picked a couple of random addresses. Wording towards the bottom of the results says:

Faster and more reliable fibre is coming to your area soon. Full Fibre is our fastest technology, but your exact speed will depend on which broadband provider and package you choose. Sign up for news and updates.

The more usual wording (as for my own address) says �we have no immediate plans...etc�, so looks like your postcode is due to get FTTP sooner rather than later. Have you seen any signs of Openreach activity or new equipment appearing on nearby poles, etc? If you check other recent threads you�ll find photos of what the equipment looks like.

Thanks, I didnt notice that wording.
No sign of OR activity apart from local tree trimming 4Q19.

Is the Smart hub 2 a FTTP router? I thought it was just copper tech.

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

Thanks, I didnt notice that wording.
No sign of OR activity apart from local tree trimming 4Q19.

Is the Smart hub 2 a FTTP router? I thought it was just copper tech.

BT usually have 2 versions of their Hubs. There's definitely 2 versions of the Smart Hub 2

An FTTP version with an RJ45 WAN port and an xDSL version with an RJ11 DSL socket.

Simple answer to the thread is if you can't get FTTC then you can't get G.Fast.
In fact if you can't get 80Mb on FTTC (or very close to it) then G.Fast is a no go.

G.Fast is only deployed alongside existing FTTC and is only available to those close enough to the cabinet (MUCH less range than FTTC).

The FTTP Smarthub 2 has a part number of 091300. One of its 4 RJ45 sockets is marked in red �WAN� and is connected to the FTTP ONT. This version also has a DSL connection and will work with VDSL & ADSL too. All other versions of the smarthub 2 are DSL only and all 4 RJ45 sockets are for LAN use.

I never noticed this on BT Checker say VDSL never metion VDSL2 (but getting 80/20 on VDSL - how odd are these suppose to be VDSL2?)

Part of typical mis-labelling by page designers who don't understand the subject Max.

Think how many routers (claim to) tell you your SNR. Almost no domestic levels actually tell you your SNR. They show the SNRM.

Neighbour�s new router turned up.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ou7qw57874iun0y/Photo%2006...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n5po7twevp58wz4/Photo%2006...
And the letter from BT
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmaa5qhwz1fglwl/Photo%2004...

That�s not the FTTP version of the Smarthub 2.

At a guess I think BT are offering free upgrades from ADSL to FTTC/VDSL - what speeds does the dsl checker show for you neighbour? They�re quite likely to end up with a worse service if the FTTC is marginal and should quite possibly demand to stay on ADSL.

syncropatrick

I knew something tickled my memory about Wrington! It is one of the OR Rural FTTP areas

This means you may well be getting FTTP later this year and we all missed why.

However there are bound to be a tiny subset in each area that don't get served so I hope you are not in the group!

This may be why your neighbour is being offered an upgrade from May BUT if it is not FTTP turn it down as your speed will drop..

In reply to a post by kitcat:

This may be why your neighbour is being offered an upgrade from May BUT if it is not FTTP turn it down as your speed will drop..

It's definitely not FTTP: that would require an engineer visit to drill holes in the wall, pull the fibre through and install an ONT.

The letter just says a router swap on the day - so it's ADSL to VDSL ""fibre"". And quite correct that it's likely to result in a speed drop and/or less reliable service.

I was pointing out that Wrington is on the OR list for FTTP as part of their rural FTTP deployment so BT Retail may be trying to lock in customers before the FTTP arrives BUT that FTTC is no good for them!

FTTP is likely to arrive later this year for them as they are well outside the limits for a decent FTTC service.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

I was pointing out that Wrington is on the OR list for FTTP as part of their rural FTTP deployment so BT Retail may be trying to lock in customers before the FTTP arrives BUT that FTTC is no good for them!

FTTP is likely to arrive later this year for them as they are well outside the limits for a decent FTTC service.

Still irrelevant to everything the OP has posted.

BT don't write to people in advance telling them FTTP is coming last I checked.

This will be the BT upgrading ADSL to FTTC for free as they have been doing for a few months.

According to the OR reports (posted earlier in thread) for both me and my neighbour (closer to exchange) we'd both see a speed improvement from VDSL, but that goes against what's been said earlier from posters, and actual experience of another neighbour 300m closer again to the exchange who saw speed drop when moving from ADSL to VDSL. As a consequence they demanded BT move them back to ADSL.

So, definitive answer please - should we take the OR reports with a pinch of salt and decline the 'upgrade' to VDSL?

The only definitive answer would come and when they do the switch.

There are many other factors that apply to the question. As shown by what Zarjaz and I have asked about your home wiring. VDSL2/FTTC is far more sensitive to such things than ADSL2+, and we know nothing about the other installation.

The BT change is almost certainly inevitable, with BT Wholesale removing their ADSL equipment before too long. It's possible TalkTalk will keep theirs for a while longer.

In reply to a post by syncropatrick:

According to the OR reports (posted earlier in thread) for both me and my neighbour (closer to exchange) we'd both see a speed improvement from VDSL, but that goes against what's been said earlier from posters, and actual experience of another neighbour 300m closer again to the exchange who saw speed drop when moving from ADSL to VDSL. As a consequence they demanded BT move them back to ADSL.

So, definitive answer please - should we take the OR reports with a pinch of salt and decline the 'upgrade' to VDSL?

Your current ADSL speed is 6.5 down / 1.03 up.

Your predicted ADSL speed range is 3 to 7.5 down.

Your predicted VDSL speed range is 3.1 to 7.9 down, 0.7 to 1.2 up.

So certainly the "three times faster" claim is complete nonsense in your scenario. There's a genuine risk that your download speed could drop to 3Mbps, and your upload to 0.7.

The best case is you might get 7.9 down. But you're already not getting best speed on ADSL, and VDSL is more sensitive to problems on long lines - ADSL uses the lower frequencies which propagate better on copper, VDSL uses higher frequencies which are subject to more attenuation. Also, at long range, VDSL is more likely to suffer disconnections and accordingly get speed capped by DLM.

As I see it, your options are:

1. Contact BT and ask them to give you a *guaranteed* minimum speed on the VDSL service (as they would give to any new customer). If this is any lower than 6.5 megabits then point out that this would result in a degradation rather than improvement of your service. Ask for a reduction in price, or to stay on ADSL.

(My guess is they'll only guarantee 3 megabits. Try putting your phone number into their checker)

2. Check your contract. If it's due to end soon anyway, then you can safely let BT move you onto VDSL. If you get a worse service then at the end of the contract you can try to switch to one of the remaining ADSL LLU providers (e.g. Talktalk) - if they serve your exchange.

Long term, everyone will be better off when ADSL is gone. Openreach can refarm the spectrum to use lower frequencies on VDSL, and they can increase the VDSL power output - both of which will give substantial speed improvements. However that's a long way off, because they have to get rid of all the LLU operators first, who have large investments in their equipment in the exchange.

In the mean time, unfortunately it's people like you who suffer worse service.

syncropatrick

Wait for the OR rural village initiative to deliver FTTP to you later in the year, or at least see what your neighbour gets in May before agreeing to FTTC. Once OR start FTTP on Wrington things can move .very fast ( see Caergwrle new item)

Thanks All,

Another neighbour has received the same letter, so I guess I can expect it soon too.

I've just checked my phone number on BT checker and it says this which doesnt sound promising.
"Your download speed range
3Mb - 7Mb

Your Stay Fast Guarantee 2Mb
Upload speed 1Mb
"

We'll check that BT can guarantee performance no less than ADSL before we accept it, and if not we'll maybe ship off to another ADSL provider if we can. Most of us are waiting for Trurespeed to arrive, so not keen on entering into a 12 month contract. The news snippet that TS are doing treeworks in the lane in May is a crumb of goodness.
If OR FTTP from Wrington reaches us that'll be welcome, but we're not holding our breath - Gigaclear and Truespeed have failed to meet their promises so far.

Edited by syncropatrick (Tue 10-Mar-20 12:13:44)

Update.
No one got GFast installed. BT have sold new VDSL2 contracts to neighbours. They've now got worse performance than their old ADSL as we're so far from the exchange.

In other news, Truespeed FTTH has finally arrived. Mine went live yesterday at 200Mb both ways, so I'm encouraging neighbours to drop BT and joine me for FTTH.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Simple answer to the thread is if you can't get FTTC then you can't get G.Fast.
In fact if you can't get 80Mb on FTTC (or very close to it) then G.Fast is a no go.

I get a full 80/20 on a G.Fast enabled cabinet and I cannot get G.Fast. So I would say if you don't have a full 80/20 connection (last time I checked my HG612 said 79999/19999 with higher obtainables) you won't get G.Fast.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

I get a full 80/20 on a G.Fast enabled cabinet and I cannot get G.Fast. So I would say if you don't have a full 80/20 connection (last time I checked my HG612 said 79999/19999 with higher obtainables) you won't get G.Fast.

I am on 80/20 fibre cabinet and can get 250/48 on G.fast. I am within 250m away from the pcp cabinet