FTTP - I expected better

So I had an FTTP line installed by Kelly Comms around 25th August and since been feeling a bit meh about the service.

The service I'm subscribed to is 160/30 via IDnet and terminating using a Tenda AC8 wireless router.

My issue that I can show is My Broadband Ping

Was expecting a very stable connection but seems to be very jittery.

My setup is very low usage, connected to the router is 1x Desktop PC, a Smartphone, an iPad and an Amazon Fire Stick all of which are either not connected or are turned off at most times of the day and night.

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

Another IDNet connection, its VDSL2 but shows what is possible with IDNet

Does pinging sites reflect the same level of jitter? If not it might be a result of the router not prioritising ICMP responses.

I thought I had some oddities and actually started a similar thread the other day with my connection https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4657634-ex... but compared to yours they're nothing.

My issues were that sometimes while browsing websites occasionally they'd not respond for a short while or need a refresh.

When running a ping from a wired device the ping is generally very good at around 7ms but then sometimes it would be much larger, going anywhere up to about 150ms.

I have a BT FTTP 150/30 connection which you can't monitor with the standard HH6 so I switched out for a Netgear R7800 which when monitored generally showed low latency but with some spikes when there is a light use on the connection but only at certain times.

Broadband latency with light background use

As I'm a bit of a geek and like tinkering I switched out the firmware for the Voxel version and now it's pretty good and the only times I see a problem are if you max out the connection and the QOS takes a couple of seconds to kick in and bring it back down.

Before 3pm on that graph was using the stock R7800 and after 3pm was with the Voxel firmware.

In your case I'd suggest disconnecting all devices, both wired and wireless for a short period of time and then see what the monitor reports.

If you still have packet loss then the next thing to try is a decent router, the model you have is rather cheap and you may find it just doesn't have the processing power needed.

The latency spikes are just when the connection or router are not able to respond quickly.

Alternatively I believe you can connect a PC directly to the ONT although you need to establish a PPPoE connection and give it all of the relevant details. Also bear in mind that your PC will be directly on the internet so should have a firewall.

If you find that the latency goes away then you know that the problem lies with the router, if not the the connection is at fault.

Edited by StuB (Thu 10-Sep-20 12:31:25)

I'd try another test but directly connecting to the openreach ont and creating a pppoe session from your pc, to rule out the tenda router being the cause.

OK so I've now setup PPP session directly with the ONT.

will let the data collect for a bit.

I've noticed its very sensitive to usage too

It's certainly looking better, but something still appears to be using the connection.

A little while ago I had a far worse ping on VM connection, tracked the cause down to a Fire TV box, no idea what was up with it but it was extremely hot and obviously affecting the network.

Well now obviously its just the computer and only usage currently is Apple Music streaming.

Will be heading out in a few minutes so will close everything off and leave it be for a couple hours but never really seen it any better than this and having a Virgin cable connection also can tell you that it looks better at some times.

I don't think you mentioned it in your post, but are you actually noticing a problem or are you just seeing lines on a TBB graph? The firewall on our work leased line causes the TBB graph to be all over the place, but the RIPE Atlas probe installed on site shows a consistently high quality and low latency connection.

Assuming you've gone out then you can see how much better your connection is without your router involved, I'd try a new, decent router.

In reply to a post by StuB:

Assuming you've gone out then you can see how much better your connection is without your router involved, I'd try a new, decent router.

Just returned, it seems that most the problem was the router, must be very unable to keep up performance.

I have arranged for it to be returned and intend to purchase a TP-Link Archer C6 as I'm already using one elsewhere with better results.

I think some testing is required, going to look for a 10GB test download to see how latency is affected.

So just completed a 10GB test download, as soon as the download started I started get very varied latency and packet loss started to occur....

https://share.pingplotter.com/iJEdha5D2mD.png

https://share.pingplotter.com/gA5vKRurtJK.png

Is this because I'm directly connecting to the Modem and there is no QOS to prioritise other connections.

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15997598183...

Edited by mlmclaren (Thu 10-Sep-20 18:44:49)

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

So just completed a 10GB test download, as soon as the download started I started get very varied latency and packet loss started to occur....

Exactly normal, if you max out your connection speed, the latency of the ICMP ECHO (a ping) will go up as the connection is saturated.

If you have a router attached to the ONT, then you have a device that can share the connection, however one user pulling down something huge (e.g. your 10GB) will case other users to experience delays.

If you have other users that need to use the network for small size items, but it is important they get through (e.g. VoIP) then enabling a QoS policy on your router may help.

Maxing out the upload is the usual way to annoy other users, which is why those on ADSL with under 1 Mbps upload, or those on FTTC with really slow upload, e.g. 4 Mbps, have problems when families are all trying to do video calls from home.

Edited by jchamier (Thu 10-Sep-20 19:43:27)

OK, well I'll look at purchasing another router with QOS I suppose and see how it goes but I'm not exactly over the moon about the idle performance of this connection I've had lower baseline pings with both Cable and DSL services.

Nearly all routers / modems will implement some basic level of traffic prioritisation, even if its not user configurable.

As a result, ping packets are nearly always assigned the lowest priority over TCP and UDP, therefore when a device is under load it is normal for ping times to increase as the packets are put to the back of the queue.

Until I get a replacement router I'm using the connection directly connected to my Desktop.

Well it is a lot better than my (4G) connection!

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

Well I'd hope so! :/

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

Well it is a lot better than my (4G) connection!

Depending which 4G network you are using, you may not be pinging your device, but a CGNAT gateway. Also variable ping latency over 4G doesn't surprise me, due to the way radio based systems work is completely different to fixed line.

So I've today connected a Netgear R6260 and seen an improvement already in My Broadband Ping

I'm about to go out again so will launch a 10GB download like last time and see if there's an improvement.

I was supplied with a Tenda by a South Yorkshire Digital Region (remember that?!) ISP many years ago.

From my experience of the unit in question, I'd say that's most likely to be the issue.

you may not be pinging your device, but a CGNAT gateway

I'm using EE, but evading the CGNAT through an AAISP L2TP connection. It's usable (mostly), but I'd prefer a fixed line.

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

I'm using EE, but evading the CGNAT through an AAISP L2TP connection. It's usable (mostly), but I'd prefer a fixed line.

Your BQM ping now makes sense, you can see the overhead of the L2TP, then the cellular part. Hopefully good for downloads, but may be a bit variable for gaming.