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Standard User WhySoComplicated
(newbie) Fri 06-Nov-20 19:15:01
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BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[link to this post]
 
I have BT full fibre broadband with an ONT on the wall and digital voice - phone is plugged into the Smart Hub 2 (which of course, is plugged into the ONT).

To cut a long story short, I don't want to use the SH2. I want to use my own router with an alternative way of getting voice.

Can someone recommend a medium to high end router which has multiple SSIDs, DDNS, good security and management, etc. etc. plus a VoIP ATA to plug into it?

More importantly, please tell me how I implement it all and how I get the digital voice service to work once theSH2 is back in it's cardbaord box.

Many thanks.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 06-Nov-20 19:17:12
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: WhySoComplicated] [link to this post]
 
You can only use BT Digital Voice with the supplied BT Smart Hub 2 unfortunately.

There is no 3rd party router capable of doing this.
Standard User tdw42
(member) Fri 06-Nov-20 19:27:00
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: WhySoComplicated] [link to this post]
 
As has been said with BT Retail services you have to use the SH2 for Digital Voice, BT will not provide connection details for a third-party ATA.

I don't know if you can obtain the credentials for the WAN connection, if so you could use a third-party router plus another provider (e.g. Sipgate, AAISP) for a voice service but it would be a different number.


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Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 06-Nov-20 19:33:19
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Porting the phone number to a proper voip provider such as .Voipfone is what I have done. For DECT the Gigaset N300IP works well with Gigaset phones such as tthe C430H. For wired phones there is the Cisco SPA112. They are more complex to configure but VOIP providers may well proovide configuration instructions.

Michael Chare
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 06-Nov-20 19:40:50
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
Aside: it has been suggested you could set up a port on your router as a PPPoE server and plug the BT HH into that - so that it thinks it's talking to a BRAS via ONT - then assign it a private IP which you NAT.

In principle you wouldn't even need to know the PPPoE credentials: you could point it at a RADIUS server with a "permit all" policy.

This is getting pretty advanced to configure though, as you're basically becoming a mini ISP, and you'd need a fairly sophisticated router. Mikrotik should be able to, also pfSense and Ubiquiti.

This also assumes that the HH does its voice directly over the Internet, and not via some out-of-band mechanism like a separate tagged VLAN on the ONT. Putting a switch with mirror port between the HH and the ONT and sniffing the traffic should show what's going on.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 06-Nov-20 20:16:01
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Porting a BT landline number to VOIP will cease the broadband.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Fri 06-Nov-20 21:03:38
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: WhySoComplicated] [link to this post]
 
WhysoComplicated

I think ( 5 years since I was involved) that the BT Digital voice uses a separate VLAN to keep the quality high and prevent contention with ordinary usage. It was going to be controlled by the same tech that mobile calls use. (In a BB outage calls could be routed easily straight to your mobile!)

If you want to use a different router get a new number from a voip provider and set the new router up using that Voip service. Do not try to port the BT number just don't use it, keep the SH2 in a cupboard for future (emergency use).
Standard User APTMAN
(member) Fri 06-Nov-20 21:19:01
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: WhySoComplicated] [link to this post]
 
+ 1 @ candlerb

During the last lockdown I built a pfSense box which does my firewall and all the routing and lots more too.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 06-Nov-20 21:38:19
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
I think ( 5 years since I was involved) that the BT Digital voice uses a separate VLAN to keep the quality high and prevent contention with ordinary usage.


They can (i believe they do) use 802.1P priority tagging to ensure VOIP traffic is treated with a higher priority over ordinary usage.

2.3.9 Upstream priority marking
CPs can (optionally) prioritise upstream traffic from the CPE to the ONT by marking
their traffic with IEEE 802.1p markings in a VLAN. The GEA-FTTP service supports
four upstream queues that are served in strict priority order
Queue PCP markings
3 6 & 7; Highest priority, served first
2 4 & 5; served after queue 3 but before queue 1
1 2 & 3; served after queue 2 but before queue 0
0 0 & 1; Lowest priority, served last


VOIP on SOGFast (and probably SOGEA) can be done in much the same way.

Edit: just read this in the FTTP SIN which i hadn't come across before.

2.1.5.2 FVA Downstream Priority Marking
FVA services have been allocated 802.1p value 7 (highest). This, in combination with
mapping FVA Service Flows to the highest priority queues throughout the FTTP network,
ensures that FVA traffic is scheduled above network management and GEA Data traffic.
FVA traffic is allocated the same priority upstream and downstream.


Although FVA is no longer sold it would make sense to treat VOIP traffic from the hub the same way.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 06-Nov-20 21:57:57)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 07-Nov-20 10:39:42
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Why not port the number?

I moved two BT VoIP numbers to port5060 fairly easily.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sat 07-Nov-20 11:09:57
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
MHC

The service he has brought has BB and Voice bundled. If he ports the number both will cease.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 07-Nov-20 11:42:02
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
BT Retail (residential, not business) don't sell broadband without voice, it's a bundled service.
The broadband is linked to the voice service and porting out the landline number will cease the broadband.

BT do not support renumber with export either.

This isn't a BT only thing either. If your port the landline number away on ANY bundled OpenReach service it will cease the broadband.

RevK from AAISP goes in to it in a bit more detail on his blog.

https://www.revk.uk/2016/04/number-porting-broadband...

edit: clarified I'm talking about BT residential services.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sat 07-Nov-20 12:12:47)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 07-Nov-20 12:05:38
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Don't they?

Should be interesting when I migrate to FTTP - imminently. My business broadband was contracted as Broadband only, and the copper it was delivered on was a residential service.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 07-Nov-20 12:07:23
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Then that isn't a bundled service.

It's 2 separate services that are billed separately.

Edit: not sure that would necessarily be a migration either.

If you are migrating the residential landline number to FTTP then the BT Business broadband should continue on the copper line.

If you intend on keeping the copper landline service then the BT Business broadband would need manually ceased.

Edited my post above to clarify I'm talking about residential services.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sat 07-Nov-20 12:13:17)

Standard User Highland76
(committed) Sat 07-Nov-20 12:49:59
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
BT Business no longer supply voice over copper on their FTTP services and you are forced to take out Digital Voice with FTTP whether you use it or not. However unlike their Residential sibling, BTB’s VoIP service can be used on any third party router as they send you a IP dect handset + base station preconfigured with your sip details. You can migrate any landline number (copper or VOIP based) onto BTB Digital Voice, I moved by Yay.com landline to BTB without any dramas.

TalkTalk Business Fibre 900 -- Netgear RAX200

My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by Highland76 (Sat 07-Nov-20 12:53:12)

Standard User tdw42
(member) Sat 07-Nov-20 14:07:14
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Highland76] [link to this post]
 
They also appear to use SOGEA FTTC for broadband delivery where FTTP is not available. I can confirm that you can ditch the BT Business Hub for a third-party router and still use the BT-supplied DECT SIP phone.
Standard User brookheather
(member) Mon 09-Nov-20 17:27:44
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
BT Retail (residential, not business) don't sell broadband without voice,

They do now:

https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline

Cerberus FTTP + pfSense + UniFi nanoHD
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 09-Nov-20 20:28:12
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: brookheather] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by brookheather:
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
BT Retail (residential, not business) don't sell broadband without voice,

They do now:

https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline


Interesting development. Cheers for the link.

Edit: looks like it's the exact same price as services with a landline. Using SOGEA/SOGFAST for FTTC with no Digital Voice.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 09-Nov-20 20:34:15)

Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 26-Nov-20 21:05:56
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
I have BT 910Mb FTTP and a Smart Hub 2, and would also like to use my Asus AC88U Router rather than the Smart Hub 2, but would like to keep the digital voice.

As was suggested earlier in this thread, I have sniffed the traffic between the SH2 and the ONT and have seen the following:
1. It establishes a PPPoE session
2. It then appears to create an encrypted SIP session with imsee.bt.com on port 5061. It's TLSv1.2 encrypted so I can't see the password. Is imsee EE's IMS server they use for VoLTE/Wifi Calling and BT are using it for Digital Voice?
3. If I make an outgoing voice call, there is some data sent over the existing SIP session on port 5061, and then immediately UDP traffic starts arriving to the SH2 port 5050, and UDP traffic is sent from port 5050, which must be the voice data. It is all within the PPPoE session and the UDP packets have 802.1Q VLAN priority 7.

If the SH2 can't establish a PPPoE session, nothing works. As was suggested earlier, the only way it appears that it can be made to work is to create a PPPoE server on my LAN which forwards traffic to the internet. Incoming UDP data on port 5050 would need forwarding to the PPPoE server which would then forward to the SH2 within the PPP session. I don't have a router that is capable of running a PPPoE server, maybe I could set one up on a Raspberry Pi.

At the moment, I have the SH2 connected to the ONT and one of the SH2 LAN ports connected to one of the LAN ports on the Asus so I avoid double NAT, and am just using the Asus as a wireless access point and not using any of the router functionality. I have turned off wifi in the SH2. Although not ideal, it seems to work quite well and I am able to achieve download speeds of 910Mb over ethernet. Hopefully one day BT will release details of how to connect to the SIP server.
Standard User jpm
(member) Thu 26-Nov-20 22:54:44
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
I can place 'HD' calls between my EE phone and my BT Digital Voice landline so it's a fair assumption that the voice bit is being handled by EE's network.

Edit: I presume you had no other clients on your network at this time or used the filters in Wireshark, so you weren't accidentally sniffing Wi-Fi calling traffic or anything like that.

Edited by jpm (Thu 26-Nov-20 22:55:56)

Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Thu 26-Nov-20 23:22:06
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
chrisu

They planned to use the same IMS server as the capacity was huge so why buy two sets. It doesn't matter what the transmission medium is with IP can be Mobile or BB over Fibre or BB over Copper. The call server and SIP/UDP session is just between IP end points, ONT to Call server to set up the session then ONT ( UDP) between IP end points direct. Also ONT to Call server to close down the call and record usage.

Encryption is to prevent fraud and keep the whole system secure. It is also why it won't work over a different hub. ( and why they won't release the SIP server instructions).
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Fri 27-Nov-20 00:00:46
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Have you tried setting up a PPPoE Service and SIP Service and have the SH2 connected to that.
And log the SIP Connection via the service if you are able to do so.
Maybe that might work.

What I was hoping to do was use my router I am using now to handle the connection and also have the SH2 on one of the routers ports (say port 10) and set it to route port numbers (5060 and 5061 etc) through to the router then over the connection.

This probably won't work, but something to think about.

Paul

BTBroadband - Full Fibre 900 Halo 1 + FVA
Exchange Name: Ilford Central (LNILC) Cabinet: 24
TBB Speedtest IPv4 | TBB Speedtest IPv6 | Ookla Speedtest (CLI) | MikroTik Tik RB4011iGS+RM (BQM)
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 27-Nov-20 08:01:23
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
Have you tried setting up a PPPoE Service and SIP Service and have the SH2 connected to that.


Don't bother trying to set up your own SIP Service. If the SH2 is trying to connect to imsee.bt.com with TLS, you won't be able to spoof it (you can't get a valid certificate for imsee.bt.com)

PPPoE server on a Raspberry Pi though, that would be more interesting.

The other question is: do you have any user control of routing on the SH2, e.g. is there a CLI?

For example, say its LAN address is 192.168.1.254. If you could connect it to a port on your own router, where your own router has address 192.168.1.253, *and* you could give the SH2 a default gateway of 192.168.1.253, then it would be able to route upstream without having to mess with PPPoE.
Standard User threelegs
(member) Fri 27-Nov-20 17:49:31
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
In reply to a post by brookheather:
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
BT Retail (residential, not business) don't sell broadband without voice,

They do now:

https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline


Interesting development. Cheers for the link.

Edit: looks like it's the exact same price as services with a landline. Using SOGEA/SOGFAST for FTTC with no Digital Voice.


that link brings up a price for the 150 service of £39.99 a month. another link i have been looking at which includes landline is £32.99 a month ???????? with 3 months free!!

Edited by threelegs (Fri 27-Nov-20 17:51:35)

Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 27-Nov-20 18:08:34
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: threelegs] [link to this post]
 
Yes you need to keep track of them, so far I have seen:

https://www.bt.com/broadband/deals
https://www.bt.com/campaign/full-fibre
https://www.bt.com/campaign/full-fibre-240
https://www.bt.com/broadband/bristol
https://www.bt.com/products/affiliate-packages-broad...

The "bristol" one is offering 150M for £29.99 currently (but with £9.99 setup and no three months free, so works out slightly more expensive over 24 months)
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 27-Nov-20 18:59:53
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: threelegs] [link to this post]
 
Different links have different offers running but after the minimum term the Fibre 150 service is £39.99 a month, with and without a landline.

The links I've looked at today go to a black Friday deal with the 150Mb package free for 3 months then £39.99 a month

Edit: another link shows £29.99 a month for 24 months.
Yet another link offers 3 months free then £32.99 a month for 24 months. That looks like the better offer.

They all revert to £39.99.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 27-Nov-20 19:05:34)

Standard User threelegs
(member) Sat 28-Nov-20 10:57:30
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
I currently pay £34.99 a month for 150/30, but when i look on "my bt" to see what offers they are giving to existing customers they will recontract me for £39.99/month. what an incentive to take out a new deal!! why do they do this? is it just to generate work for the sales teams ? why not offer or just do it, a lower price for existing customers to keep them loyal. why do we have to keep haggling?
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 28-Nov-20 11:06:30
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: threelegs] [link to this post]
 
1. Because lots of people forget or are too embarrassed to haggle, and therefore pay exorbitant prices.

2. Because if BT made the "standard" price £34.99, the marketing people would still feed obliged to offer discounts on top of that to attract new business - like the never-ending sales at Allied Carpets.
Standard User gary333
(experienced) Sat 28-Nov-20 11:43:23
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
like the never-ending sales at Allied Carpets.


Showing your age there wink. They went out of business 5 years ago. Unlike DFS who still pull this old trick. Has anyone bought anything from DFS when the sale wasn't on lol?
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Sun 29-Nov-20 12:25:25
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jpm:
I can place 'HD' calls between my EE phone and my BT Digital Voice landline so it's a fair assumption that the voice bit is being handled by EE's network.

Edit: I presume you had no other clients on your network at this time or used the filters in Wireshark, so you weren't accidentally sniffing Wi-Fi calling traffic or anything like that.


I disconnected everything from the LAN ports and turned wifi off, so the only traffic was the SH2. I created a network tap between the SH2 and ONT using a Raspberry Pi, following the instructions here : https://surfingthecyber.com/howto/2017/03/30/Buildin...
Standard User jpm
(member) Wed 02-Dec-20 22:15:31
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: WhySoComplicated] [link to this post]
 
For everybody who has been thinking that an ATA might become available for BT Digital Voice customers because there will be people who want to use existing phones, I had to be a little bit vague as the devices were on trial, but these situations will be handled via a little DECT adapter, detailed here:

https://www.bt.com/content/dam/bt/help/user-guides/D...

To make it clear, this still requires the Smart Hub 2.

Edited by jpm (Wed 02-Dec-20 22:16:40)

Standard User Rhubarb
(committed) Thu 03-Dec-20 13:36:00
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
Hi. Trying to decide whether to go for FTTP at this stage. Service just become available but it looks like I'd have to have Digital Voice meaning that I'd have to use the SH2. Does anyone know that if I were to turn of DHCP in the SH2 and redirect DHCP & DNS to the likes of pi-hole would DV still work via the router? Cheers - Andy
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 03-Dec-20 14:29:46
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rhubarb:
it looks like I'd have to have Digital Voice meaning that I'd have to use the SH2.


1. Only if you decide to take FTTP from BT - other providers are available. Although they'll provide their own router with voice port, in some cases they'll release the SIP info for you to use with your own hardware.

2. You can migrate your phone number to a third-party VOIP provider, either before or after the FTTP migration. Then you can ignore the SH2 (which will have a new phone number that you don't use) and use your own ATA or other VOIP solution. If you make outgoing calls, this is generally way cheaper anyway.

To take your phone number without ceasing the underlying service, you need to use the "renumber with number export" process, which for example AAISP can do for you. Their voice service is £1.20 per month plus calls.
Standard User tdw42
(member) Thu 03-Dec-20 14:48:42
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rhubarb:
Trying to decide whether to go for FTTP at this stage. Service just become available but it looks like I'd have to have Digital Voice meaning that I'd have to use the SH2.


Only if you use BT Retail as an ISP, similarly Sky FTTP voice services requires the use of their router. I would expect this to become commonplace for the large ISPs which decide to offer a voice service on non-business FTTP connections.

You can always go data only e.g. TalkTalk, Zen and then port the copper line number to a VoIP provider, e.g. Sipgate, AAISP.
Standard User omnius
(member) Thu 03-Dec-20 15:20:54
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
Maby we will get lucky and all these ISP's will see fit to put a "modem" mode on their kit that would let their kit run the phone side but hand everything else to whatever router your using.

I give it 2 years max before someone works out how its all done, nothing on the internet stays hidden forever.

--

Just because i try to help doesnt mean i know what im on about lol
Standard User Rhubarb
(committed) Thu 03-Dec-20 15:52:33
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: omnius] [link to this post]
 
Thanks all for your replies. I'm just trying to keep things simple and economical at the moment. (I realise a pi-hole isn't keeping it simple but thought it might offer a stopgap until other options appear.) I've just ordered BT Fibre 100 to get the black Friday deal, installation isn't until mid Jan so I've got time to consider the options. I've got a reasonable FTTC connection at present so if I don't think things are going to work out I can cancel nearer the time and stay where I am. If anyone here has had experience handing off DHCP & DNS from the SH2 to something else with DV I'd like to hear. Thanks again. Cheers - Andy
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 03-Dec-20 15:54:25
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: omnius] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by omnius:
Maby we will get lucky and all these ISP's will see fit to put a "modem" mode on their kit that would let their kit run the phone side but hand everything else to whatever router your using.


That can't work, because VOIP requires IP (by definition), which means it has to be behind the router.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 03-Dec-20 16:39:32
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
That can't work, because VOIP requires IP (by definition), which means it has to be behind the router.

Virgin Media support it, but I suspect they provision a private VLAN to the SIP side, and a public VLAN to the modem.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 03-Dec-20 17:14:17
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
Am I missing something?

Smart Hub 2 has an old fashioned phone socket on it, i.e. can plug in a phone to that or extension kits galore if that is your wish. That its provisioned using Digital Voice makes zero difference when using that socket.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Rhubarb
(committed) Thu 03-Dec-20 17:33:11
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Am I missing something?

Not really. It's just that the only option for my connection is to take DV so I'm stuck with a SH2. I'd like to have a little control over DNS and IP allocation so something like Pi-hole might offer me this with the BT router. Andy

Edited by Rhubarb (Thu 03-Dec-20 17:43:56)

Standard User jpm
(member) Thu 03-Dec-20 19:20:39
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
I presume you want to use a landline telephone? Because if you don't then you can do what you want in terms of routers.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 03-Dec-20 20:26:47
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rhubarb:
Not really. It's just that the only option for my connection is to take DV so I'm stuck with a SH2. I'd like to have a little control over DNS and IP allocation so something like Pi-hole might offer me this with the BT router.

Assuming the SH2 lets you turn off DHCP, then nothing stopping you using the Pi-hole for those services on your network. This should not affect the service the router is using for Digital Voice.

However most ISP routers I have seen have very few options, to reduce support calls.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User omnius
(member) Thu 03-Dec-20 20:38:50
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2 *DELETED*


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by omnius
Standard User Rhubarb
(committed) Thu 03-Dec-20 21:15:45
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jpm:
I presume you want to use a landline telephone? Because if you don't then you can do what you want in terms of routers.

Yep, need to keep the landline contact, we use mobile for outbound calls but we're at the age where a good few of our friends and relatives only use landlines. I'd be happy to keep the landline on copper as long as we can but it's not a option if we want FTTP. Appreciate there are other options/suppliers but it just makes things more expensive/complicated.
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 03-Dec-20 21:27:20
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rhubarb:
Yep, need to keep the landline contact, we use mobile for outbound calls but we're at the age where a good few of our friends and relatives only use landlines. I'd be happy to keep the landline on copper as long as we can but it's not a option if we want FTTP. Appreciate there are other options/suppliers but it just makes things more expensive/complicated.


In the long run, moving to third-party VOIP will make your life easier. You can change broadband provider or move house in future without having to worry about losing your number, and you can answer your home phone from anywhere in the world!
Standard User Rhubarb
(committed) Thu 03-Dec-20 21:34:53
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Assuming the SH2 lets you turn off DHCP, then nothing stopping you using the Pi-hole for those services on your network. This should not affect the service the router is using for Digital Voice.

However most ISP routers I have seen have very few options, to reduce support calls.

Yep, my Son has an SH2 on FTTC, that has the option to turn off DHCP. Since posting earlier I have found a post on the Pi-hole forum where someone has PH working with the SH2 but there's no mention of digital voice. As you say it should hopefully allow the DV to get an IP as would any other client/process. That would probably leave the SH2 doing not a lot as I would also be disabling WiFi to use BT Whole Home WiFi disks.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 03-Dec-20 22:13:48
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
SH2 allows DHCP and Wifi to be turned off, leaving it as a simple passthrough device. I have an Asus Router which I have changed to Wireless Access Point mode, and disabled Wifi on the SH2. The Wifi on the SH2 is reasonable, but the range and speed doesn't come close the to Asus. I have left the SH2 as the DHCP server as it that was easier, plus it allocates IPv6 addresses that can access the internet, although if you wanted, the DHCP server could be disabled and you could use the one on your router or other device on your LAN.

If SH2 is not the device that establishes the PPPoE session, then Digital Voice does not work.
Standard User CJT
(experienced) Sat 05-Dec-20 08:42:26
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Rhubarb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rhubarb:
Hi. Trying to decide whether to go for FTTP at this stage. Service just become available but it looks like I'd have to have Digital Voice meaning that I'd have to use the SH2. Does anyone know that if I were to turn of DHCP in the SH2 and redirect DHCP & DNS to the likes of pi-hole would DV still work via the router? Cheers - Andy


You can take out BT FTTP without voice using the prev link provided, or indeed use an ISP that does not bundle voice with it's services.

CJT.

On BT Broadband up to 80 Mbps...

But NOT for much longer!

Previously on NOW TV Broadband up to 38 Mbps
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 05-Dec-20 16:23:50
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
In reply to a post by candlerb:
like the never-ending sales at Allied Carpets.


Showing your age there wink. They went out of business 5 years ago.


When I was a lad, we didn't have Angry Birds. We had Mellow Birds.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Tue 08-Dec-20 22:48:18
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In order to test if the PPPoE server idea will work to allow the SH2 to be connected behind another router, I did the following:
1. Create a PPPoE server on my LAN. It has a local IP the same as the external gateway, and a remote IP the same as my external IP. I'm not sure if this is necessary, but I did it in case SH2 sends any messages with the IP addresses it sees in them.
2. Add NATing from the external gateway IP on the LAN so that it will forward and NAT the traffic.
3. Plug the SH2 into the LAN with the PPPoE server on.

The SH2 connected to the fake PPPoE server and established a connection. I connected to the SH2 wifi and checked the status web page and it said it was connected to the internet. I was able to access the internet as the data went from my PC to the SH2 via wifi, down the PPPoE connection to the fake PPPoE server, the IPs were NATed and forwarded to my ASUS router and out to the internet on the real PPPoE connection. I was able to browse the internet the same as if the SH2 was connected directly to the ONT.

Digital voice did not work. It kept making TLS connections to linediscovery.hub.bt.com:443 but got no further. Checking my previous traffic sniffing when the SH2 was connected to the ONT, it connected to linediscovery.hub.bt.com before connecting to imsee.bt.com. I therefore assume it is getting the SIP details from linediscovery.hub.bt.com somehow. As it's TLS encrypted, I can't see what is being sent to linediscovery.hub.bt.com and why it doesn't work as I set up the fake PPPoE server so the SH2 would think it has the same IP as the real one and is connected to the same gateway IP as the real one, in case any of those IP addresses were sent to linediscovery.hub.bt.com. There must be something else that SH2 is sending to linediscovery.hub.bt.com that is causing it not to work (real PPPoE server MAC address maybe?)
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 09-Dec-20 08:14:33
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
That's interesting. Could it be something in the PPPoE exchange that is different / missing? Or perhaps linediscovery tries to make an inbound connection *to* the SH2?
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Wed 09-Dec-20 16:28:47
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Chrisu

I think Candleb has identified the issue, linediscovery.hub.bt.com is contacting the IP on the ASUS with an incoming connection and the ASUS doesn't know what to do with it so it all fails.

You are dealing with a service that is setup to be secure, non hackable and non mimicable.

It has to be designed this way to meet the Government standards for a public telephone system ( can't remember the official standard) as published. So that it can replace the PSTN.
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 09-Dec-20 16:57:59
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
I think Candleb has identified the issue, linediscovery.hub.bt.com is contacting the IP on the ASUS with an incoming connection and the ASUS doesn't know what to do with it so it all fails.


If it's on a fixed port then I expect it can be port-forwarded.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Wed 09-Dec-20 21:13:27
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
It's the hub that's making the call to linediscovery.hub.bt.com. It's an https call, and it seems that there is some kind of web server running there, probably some kind of simple REST service as the amount of data sent in each direction is small. I'm guessing that it's sending some kind of credentials and then getting the SIP server details back. The hub then makes a call to imsee.bt.com which looks like the SIP server. The only time that data is incoming and not initiated by the hub is when UDP voice data is received on port 5050 when a call is made. Therefore port forwarding won't help here.

The data in the PPPoE discovery messages is pretty simple. The only real data are the IP addresses at the end of the PPP connection, and the access concentrator name. I made those the same as the real session, so the hub's view of the world when connected to my PPPoE server should be the same as when connected to the real one. There must be something subtly different that I can't see which means that it doesn't like the response it gets from linediscovery.hub.bt.com.
Standard User PianSomB
(learned) Wed 09-Dec-20 21:20:09
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.

Can your router spoof the MAC from your SH2, perhaps?

Standard User jpm
(member) Wed 09-Dec-20 21:29:57
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Could you packet sniff the whole PPPoE setup phase that the SH2 does over the WAN to BT (e.g. just the SH2, your FTTP ONT, and the mirrored switch in between)? The information about the subscriber is inserted into the PPPoE messages by Openreach, which is how you can factory default a hub and use default credentials but it still knows what account it's on. I'm wondering if this needs to be told to the SH2 somehow when the connection is dialled.

See 2.1.8 in this doc https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/helpandsupport...
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Wed 09-Dec-20 22:45:52
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
That's an interesting document, I had wondered how it worked.

Having re-checked the PPPoE discovery messages when the SH2 is connected directly to the ONT, I can see there's a PPPoE tag called 'AC-Cookie' in the PADO message, which looks like some kind of 16 byte token. I would guess that the SH2 passes this value in the call to the https call to linediscovery.hub.bt.com and then it receives the SIP details in response. The PPPoE server I have created (https://dianne.skoll.ca/projects/rp-pppoe/ running on a linux server) does not have this PPPoE tag, and so the SH2 won't be able to pass it and which is probably the reason it doesn't work. It is likely that the only way of getting this to work is if I can get the AC-Cookie tag from the ASUS router and make my PPPoE server pass it to the SH2 in the PADO message. I don't know if this is possible as I can't see the Asus router logging out the PPPoE tags anywhere.
Standard User tdw42
(member) Thu 10-Dec-20 01:55:43
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
AC-Cookie is a standard, albeit optional, tag. See RFC 2516 Appendix A (page 10) and the first couple of paragraphs of section 9 (page 8).

It was intended to mitigate against some DoS attacks, I suppose BT Retail could be abusing it for other purposes but I wouldn't expect them to have access to or be able to manipulate the PPPoE discovery phase in the Openreach network.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 10-Dec-20 10:58:38
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I agree, it's probably not being done by AC-Cookie as that's to prevent DoS, more likely this:

1. The SH2 sends the PPPoE PADI message. The OLT adds some extra tags as per the above openreach document, that identify your line.
2. The PPPoE server in openreach receives the PADI message along with the tag that the OLT added, and sends a PADO message which will contain the AC-Name tag. The AC-Name tag will identify the AC in your telephone exchange, and I can see it contains the code of my exchange. The OLT removes the tag that it added to the PADI message.
3. The SH2 responds with a PADR message.
4. The PPPoE server responds with a PADS message and the PPP session is established. The message contains the 16 bit session ID.

So at any point in time, AC-Name and Session ID are unique within openreach and can identify your line, and both SH2 and openreach know these 2 values. Openreach could pass these to BT, and then the SH2 could make an https call to linediscovery.hub.bt.com and pass them, and BT would know who you are and so can return your SIP details. Hopefully the Host-Uniq tag would also be sent as this is known by both sides, otherwise you could have a guess at the PPP session ID and have a 1 in 65536 chance of taking over one of your neighbours phone lines.

The AC-Name doesn't change, but presumably it could in the future if openreach add more PPPoE servers in your local exchange, but the Session ID does change. The Host-Uniq tag is probably unique for each SH2. I can see it and can make my Asus router send the SH2 Host-Uniq value in that tag.

If it does work like this, then the only way to be able to get the SH2 to work behind your router with your own PPPoE server on your LAN, is for your router to log the PPPoE AC-Name and Session ID so your PPPoE server could retrieve them and pass the same values to the SH2. My router doesn't log these values and I doubt most consumer routers do, so I don't think I'm going to be able to make this work with the router I have.
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 10-Dec-20 11:54:28
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
That's really interesting.

It might be made to work if you put a small managed switch between your router and ONT, with a mirror port to capture the PPPoE traffic. Or if your router was something like pfSense, then you could just capture the packets in software.

Not that this is something you'd actually want to deploy, but having got this far I expect you'd like to prove it's possible smile
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 10-Dec-20 13:33:10
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
What would be nicer is if we knew the format of the query string to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/ I tried a GET / and it just returns HTTP error 404. It's probably just something like https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/getSIP?SessionID=12... and it may then return you the SIP details in the response. I wonder if there's any way to dump the SH2 firmware out and then search it and maybe get lucky and reveal the format of the query.
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 10-Dec-20 14:13:45
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
I don't think it would help, given that you won't be able to provide a valid certificate for linediscovery.hub.bt.com. You need to let the SH2 make its own request, which is encrypted end-to-end.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Thu 10-Dec-20 16:57:38
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
chrisu

Think of the SH2 as having a mobile SIM coded inside it and how this registers with a mobile network.

This may give hints to what is happening . You may also find that a SH2 Mac address is involved, it may have more than one!, and that is preregistered within BT to the voice service. ( A change of SH2 may also break the service without BT involvement , this could be tested for to agree / remove MAC identities from the issue)
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 10-Dec-20 19:25:14
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
chrisu

Think of the SH2 as having a mobile SIM coded inside it and how this registers with a mobile network.

This may give hints to what is happening . You may also find that a SH2 Mac address is involved, it may have more than one!, and that is preregistered within BT to the voice service. ( A change of SH2 may also break the service without BT involvement , this could be tested for to agree / remove MAC identities from the issue)


I don't think this is how it works, as if it was authenticated using a private key on the SH2 in a similar way to how there is an app on the SIM card with a private key, the PPP session details wouldn't be important, but they are. It would also mean you could take your SH2 to someone else's house, plug it in and have your phone line there. It would also mean they would need to make SH2s individually for each customer.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 10-Dec-20 19:41:08
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
I don't think it would help, given that you won't be able to provide a valid certificate for linediscovery.hub.bt.com. You need to let the SH2 make its own request, which is encrypted end-to-end.


You would only need an individual certificate if they are doing client certificate authentication, which is unlikely. More likely is that all the SH2s have the same publicly available CA Root Cert so the SH2 can validate the server certificate.

I just realised I can enable SSH access on my ASUS router. I just tried and it looks like a linux server. When I get time next week, I'll have a look around to see if the PPP session details are logged anywhere, or if they are available somewhere under the /dev or /sys pseudo filesystems.
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 10-Dec-20 20:57:26
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrisu:
In reply to a post by candlerb:
I don't think it would help, given that you won't be able to provide a valid certificate for linediscovery.hub.bt.com. You need to let the SH2 make its own request, which is encrypted end-to-end.


You would only need an individual certificate if they are doing client certificate authentication, which is unlikely.


What I meant was that the SH2, when it connects to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/, will validate that the *server* it is talking to has a certificate for "linediscovery.hub.bt.com" signed by a known root CA.

If you try to intercept the traffic, for example to see what it puts in its GET or POST request, it will discover that you don't have a valid certificate and immediately terminate the connection.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Thu 17-Dec-20 19:18:57
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
I have found out that I can SSH into my Asus router and /proc/net/pppoe will give me the PPPoE Session ID and remote MAC address of the PPPoE session. I had previously speculated that the SH2 is making a call to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/ and passing some details known to both sides (I guessed PPPoE Session ID, AC Name, Host-Uniq but there could be others) and returning the SIP details.

I made the PPPoE Server on my LAN have the same IP address as the OpenReach PPPoE Server, made my PPPoE server allocate the same IP address to the SH2 as was allocated to my Asus router, changed the MAC address of my PPPoE Server network card to the same as the one in openreach, made the PPPoE Server use the same AC-Name and PPPoE Session ID as the one in use by the Asus router and set the Asus router to use the same Host-Uniq tag as I has seen the SH2 use in Wireshark.

It still didn't work. I then noticed that the SH2 changes the Host-Uniq tag to what appears to be a random value every time it tries to connect. If it is using the Host-Uniq in a call to get the SIP details, then the only way to get this to work is to change the LAN PPPoE server so that when it receives the PADI message, it gets the Host-Uniq tag from it, SSHs into the ASUS router, sets the Host-Uniq tag in the Asus router to be the same, causes it to re-establish the PPPoE session, and return the new PPPoE Session ID to the LAN PPPoE server and then it can then send it back to the SH2. It would also be possible to change the MAC address of the Asus router WAN interface to be the same as the SH2 if that is important. Although it would be interesting to try this, it's too much work, so I'm going to give up.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Thu 17-Dec-20 20:57:54
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Sounds like it has been nicely designed to prevent easy hacking into your voice comms. Makes it a nice secure voice service to meet all the security standards at the customer end.

Still has legal interception within the network of course but little chance of interception in the local network even with the access you have a s a customer.
Standard User Dodger69
(newbie) Thu 31-Dec-20 18:13:00
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
This is the same situation I'm finding myself in with Digital Voice.
I found the following on ISP review which would seem to give a work round for this.
I'm not in the same league regarding networking etc. as most of the posters on here, so I'm sorry if this is not what you are looking for.


I’ve had a very similar experience to Richard. The bureaucracy and support systems are impossible. I ordered 1GB ftth on 21st August. Today is 26th October and I’m still waiting for a fully functional phone service from BT. We didn’t have the option of a copper analogue line as we had been with Telewest/Virgin for about 20 years. I placed an order by phone as I wanted to ask some questions about the handsets available. That was my mistake.

The short version of the story is that we now have a very good and stable internet connection, but after two months still don’t have a fully working BT line or any handsets from BT. The order is not showing up on their systems as having been completed so the “fancy” services on Digital Voice (voicemail, Call Guardian, etc) don’t work my old DECT system. The handsets, unbelievably, are out of stock.

Having to use the BT Router was a pain too, though the idea of bundling it all together in a combined router/DECT base station is probably good for those who want a simple set up which works (or should work) straight out of the box. I wanted to use my existing mesh wi-fi and the only way to do this was to set up the mesh system in Access point mode only and connect to the BT Router. This was a pain to set up, involved more ugly boxes and cables, but (apart from a fully functional phone)it worked.

Last week, in despair at BT’s inability to complete the order I realised that as the order was still showing as “not completed” BT’s billing systems weren’t working either. I ordered a Gigaset VOIP/analogue DECT system from Amazon, managed to divert all BT calls to a Sipgate VOIP number, took out the BT router and connected the TP-Link Deco mesh system directly to the ONT. Bingo! A fully functional phone at last.

Siplink allow you to substitute a presentation number in place of the number they allocate to you. I’m now receiving calls on the BT network, diverted to Sipgate and received using a “normal” VOIP service, which means that I can receive calls on my landline on my mobile or anywhere in the world that I choose, as well as get the essential things such as voicemail and being able to configure how long the phone rings before diverting.

I’ve given up chasing BT. For now at least I have a great 1GB internet connection and fully functional phone service which costs me £9.95 per month for the all UK landline and mobiles inclusive package from Sipgate. No bills from BT until they sort their systems out.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Fri 01-Jan-21 18:17:36
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Dodger69] [link to this post]
 
Due to being locked down over the Christmas and New Year period, I've had a lot of spare time to continue this, and I have eventually made it work. My Asus router is now connected to the ONT and is acting as the router and the SH2 is connected to one of the LAN ports on the Asus router and is only used for Digital Voice phone and I am able to make phone calls.

I worked out that the SH2 makes a call to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/ and passes the PPPoE Host-Uniq tag value and the PPPoE Session ID and it is returned the SIP details which it then uses to initiate the SIP connection for phone calls. The local and remote IP addresses and MAC addresses, and the AC Name are not important. The SH2 changes the Host-Uniq value every time it makes a new connection which makes it more difficult to get this to work.

The Asus router is running a version of linux, the source code is freely available on the Asus web site, and it is possible to configure SSH access in order to run commands on the Asus router in order to reconfigure things.

I downloaded a copy of the open source PPPoE server https://dianne.skoll.ca/projects/rp-pppoe/ I changed it so that on receipt of the PADI message, it extracts the Host-Uniq tag, and reconfigures the Asus router to use this value on it's external PPPoE connection, and then makes the Asus router re-establish the PPPoE session. Once it is re-established, it gets the PPPoE Session ID and uses that later in the PADS message sent back to the SH2 so that the SH2 will use that, along with the host-Uniq value, when making a call to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/

In order to change the Host-Uniq tag on the Asus router and cause it to reconnect the following commands can be run on the Asus router:
nvram set wan0_pppoe_hostuniq=20EF000
nvram set rc_service="restart_wan_if 0"
kill -SIGUSR1 1

In order to get the PPPoE session ID on the Asus router, the following command can be run:
cat /proc/net/pppoe|cut -d" " -f1

A linux server (Raspberry Pi or other), needs to be running on the same LAN as the SH2. On this server, the changed RP-PPPOE needs to be installed and the file /etc/ppp/pppoe-server-options needs to contain the following (192.168.0.1 is the Asus LAN IP Address):
noauth
noproxyarp
ms-dns 192.168.0.1
lcp-echo-interval 10
lcp-echo-failure 2

IP forwarding needs to be enabled on the linux server :
echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

A NAT rule needs to be added on the linux server to NAT the data coming from the SH2 to the internet. I use a bridge interface br0, but for most servers it will be eth0 or similar:
iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 192.168.1.0/24 -o br0 -j MASQUERADE

The Asus router needs to be configured to forward UDP traffic on port 5050 to an additional IP address which will be assigned to the linux server. The linux server will have 2 IP addresses - it's main one and the one used for PPP. I assigned 192.168.0.11 for this purpose.
A NAT rule needs to be added to the linux server to forward the voice data from the internet through the PPP connection to the SH2:
iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -d 192.168.0.11 -p udp --dport 5050 -j DNAT --to-destination 192.168.1.1:5050

The hacked PPPoE server needs to be run (the -o 1 is ignored in my hacked server and be replaced with the Session ID):
pppoe-server -C acc-aln2.l-zzz -I br0 -L 192.168.0.11 -R 192.168.1.1 -o 1 -N 1 -k

The SH2 will then think it's connected to the ONT and connect the Digital Voice even though it's running on the LAN.
Standard User PianSomB
(learned) Fri 01-Jan-21 19:40:37
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
EXCELLENT piece of work. Thanks for sharing this.

Standard User tdw42
(member) Fri 01-Jan-21 19:47:07
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Excellent work!

Out of interest are the SIP details returned from the call to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/ likely to be enough for a third-party ATA / VoIP client to connect to the BT SIP server?
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Fri 01-Jan-21 20:06:15
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tdw42:
Excellent work!

Out of interest are the SIP details returned from the call to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/ likely to be enough for a third-party ATA / VoIP client to connect to the BT SIP server?

I imagine they probably would be enough for a 3rd party VOIP client. The problem is that the messages are encrypted and so I can't see the content of them.

If there's some way of getting hold of the SH2 firmware, it might be possible to search through it and work out the format of the call to https://linediscovery.hub.bt.com/ but I don't know where that can be downloaded from as it doesn't seem possible to download the firmware and update the SH2, and I can't see any way to extract the firmware from the SH2.

Also, one thing that did surprise me is that only the Host-Uniq and PPPoE session ID seem to be needed. I would have thought that the AC Name would also be needed to be completely sure that the combination was unique, otherwise there would be a very tiny possibility that 2 SH2s had the same Host-Uniq and PPPoE session ID if they were connected to different exchanges.
Standard User tdw42
(member) Sat 02-Jan-21 15:19:41
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrisu:
The problem is that the messages are encrypted and so I can't see the content of them.


It depends on how good their HTTPS implementation is - if the SH2 does not present a client certificate to the server and also does not check the server certificate CA there are a number of HTTPS proxies, e.g. mitmproxy, which can be used to intercept and decode the traffic.
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Sat 02-Jan-21 19:58:01
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
In order to test this, I set up a DNS server which resolved linediscovery.hub.bt.com to my web server, and set that DNS server to be the one passed to the SH2 on the PPP connection. I then turned on the SH2 and used wireshark to observe the traffic. The TLS key exchange failed with the SH2 generating the error : TLSv1.2 Record Layer: Alert (Level: Fatal, Description: Unknown CA). So the SH2 is checking that the server cert is signed by a valid CA and doesn't proceed any further.
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Sun 24-Jan-21 11:17:47
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Hi Chris

I signed up today just to commend you on your work with this smile
I'm not yet on BT's FTTP, but that's only because I was yet to find a solution to being able to use their Digital Voice service (via the SH2), but using my own router for 'normal' traffic (Linksys WRT1900ACS - running OpenWRT).

Your post gives me hope that it is possible, even if I haven't yet worked out what each bit is!

I'm sure there will be more guides / helpful posts when more users get online with FTTP.

We've recently had to change landline numbers (long, boring story) and my other half is insistent that it doesn't happen again any time soon (I'm still looking at a number port to a proper VOIP solution).

Thanks
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sun 24-Jan-21 12:42:42
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
MilesR

BT's solution is a proper VOIP one, just a secure one to meet all the Gov standards. It is likely to be the most secure one an ordinary punter can buy.

What you actually want is the service to run on a plug in ATA ( adaptor) so you can use it on any router. However that will let people break the security and make the voice service hackable / interceptable so is unlikely to happen.

( breaking the security may also be an offense but you would have to trawl the communication acts to check this)
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Sun 24-Jan-21 13:10:50
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, wrong word chosen.
I meant "alternative" rather than "proper" smile

I've already got an account & number with Sipgate and am looking at the various adapters (e.g. Grandstream HT802 etc.) but as I mentioned, getting my other half to agree to switching to that number is proving the hardest part! laughlaugh
I never use it, but she had a number of older friends who aren't heavy mobile users and still rely on landlines for their method of communication.

If I can manage a move to using another provider (i.e sip gate) then I can decouple the 'need' for a physical landline tied to the broadband provision.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 24-Jan-21 13:11:24
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
Why not switch your existing telephone number to a separate VOIP provider when you moved to FTTP

Edit: Your post just before mine supersedes my post.

Edited by dect (Sun 24-Jan-21 13:13:31)

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 24-Jan-21 13:26:58
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dect:
Why not switch your existing telephone number to a separate VOIP provider when you moved to FTTP
This is the option I took, but no FTTP here, I used Virgin Media cable. My old openreach number is now VoIP with AAISP.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Sun 24-Jan-21 13:32:23
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
Sipgate are basic (pardon the pun with their package name) but good.

You can get away from ATA type adapters if you use a DECT cordless phone (or several) that have a base just plugs into your broadband connection. I’ve used a Siemens system like that with their N300A IP base. It will work seemlesly with Sipgate and any other SIP provider.

In the fullness of time you can port your existing landline e number over to Sipgate (or another provider) rather than having to give out a new landline number.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Sun 24-Jan-21 14:17:17
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, I'd not seen the N300 range, that looks like a good option for both landline + VOIP setup.
I'll take a further look.
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Sun 24-Jan-21 14:25:02
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Yeah, stupidly I didn't think of porting the number to VOIP when I cancelled my Virgin contract frown

It was all such a hassle (months & months of them not resolving speed & latency issues - everything went pear shaped in March 2020, after 6 years without problems and they were massively oversubscribed in my area) - that I was finally just pleased to be rid of them.

They let me out of the contract early because they failed to fix the issues after promising and missing 4 planned dates for resolution. As far as I know they still haven't fixed it properly (some of my neighbours are still hitting issues).

I was running multi-wan for a month or so after getting a JohnLewis/PlusNet connection put in because I couldn't put up with the VirginMedia service anymore and had the "mwan" package running nicely on the OpenWRT install - with traffic profiling setup.

I also had automated speed tests running every 15 minutes on the VirginMedia connection stored in a database with a Grafana front-end just so I could prove to Virgin that their issues were obviously contention based (during peak 'work hours' it ground to a halt, often 0.5Mbps on my supposedly 200Mbps connection). And jitter rates were horrific (so lots of lost packets / retransmission).

Anyway, the VDSL/ FTTC connection is much more stable, albeit too slow for my liking.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 24-Jan-21 15:21:13
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MilesR:
Anyway, the VDSL/ FTTC connection is much more stable, albeit too slow for my liking.
Yes, if the coax DOCSIS network is oversubscribed usability collapses very fast. I am lucky to be in the Surrey/Hampshire border franchise, on the Guildford head end, and friends of mine (too far for ADSL originally) have been on this network for 15+ years, without issue. I had some local issues with the cabinet last summer, causing disconnects, hopefully now resolved.

I left Plusnet at the end of 2019 as the upload speed collapsed, having been on ADSL then FTTC since 2004 in this location, the download started close to 60, when I left was just managing 40, but the upload started around 8, and dropped to between 2 and 3, which for my home working was problematic.

So I risked VM, and touching wood, the 200/20 service is relatively stable. I have seen a slow upload of 10 a couple of times. My only other option would be 4G; and I have strong EE and Three signal, the Three service here is very slow, the EE is good, but the lockdown/pandemic has showed how varied these can get. One day 200 Mbps, the next 15 Mbps smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User chrisu
(newbie) Sun 24-Jan-21 16:55:02
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
I described the way I got Digital Voice on the SH2 to work on the lan behind my Asus router on page 7 of this thread, but I didn't post the source code for my hack to the code of rp-pppoe (version 3.14). I have uploaded it here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Uq1oKBGCtChEvv1H9Ut... This is specific to Asus routers as it needs to change the Host_Uniq tag on the router and restart the PPPoE session. Something similar should be possible with OpenWRT and other routers.

I have now automated everything and so I can restart the SH2, my Asus router or the linux server that pppoe-server is running on and everything automatically reconnects. It's all been working without issue since 1st Jan.
Standard User jpm
(member) Sun 24-Jan-21 17:34:05
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: chrisu] [link to this post]
 
Have you considered talking to the OpenWRT team to get this merged into their codebase and exposed in the admin UI and then hopefully it can make its way into other projects based on OpenWRT?
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Sun 24-Jan-21 17:47:37
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Sipgate are basic (pardon the pun with their package name) but good.

You can get away from ATA type adapters if you use a DECT cordless phone (or several) that have a base just plugs into your broadband connection


Sipgate works for me. I'm using a FritzBox router which has a built-in VoIP connection and acts as the DECT base station. I don't know what other VoIP providers offer but you really can't beat Sipgate's monthly fee.
Standard User _Icaras_
(newbie) Sun 24-Jan-21 21:50:02
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: brookheather] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by brookheather:
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
BT Retail (residential, not business) don't sell broadband without voice,

They do now:

https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline


Wonder if there’s a way of BT Group staff taking advantage of that. At my address is a couple of quid cheaper a month not to have dialtone.

Icaras
Standard User heathrow
(regular) Sun 24-Jan-21 21:58:35
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: _Icaras_] [link to this post]
 
Those FAQs are hilarious - most of them keep saying NO LANDLINE. USE MOBILE.
Standard User simon194
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 25-Jan-21 08:24:04
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
I use the Siemens N300A IP base with my existing landline and two Sipgate accounts. I'm not sure if Siemens have discontinued it or not but it's still easy enough to get hold of it.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 25-Jan-21 09:12:14
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: simon194] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by simon194:
I use the Siemens N300A IP base with my existing landline and two Sipgate accounts. I'm not sure if Siemens have discontinued it or not but it's still easy enough to get hold of it.
I think Siemens offloaded Gigaset as a separate business? I'm guessing this is the product:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigaset-N300A-Station-Answe...

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Mon 25-Jan-21 09:28:38
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Yes that's it. It has been branded Gigaset for years now. Quite a mature product, firmware is stable the only thing that will kill it a lighting strike (believe me).

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User mikegg
(regular) Mon 25-Jan-21 11:22:00
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
Sorry to go back to basics (I understand why this thread has become quite technical) but can someone clarify the following ?

We might be getting FTTP shortly and I will probably go with a BT Retail offering. I want to keep my number and transfer it to a third party VOIP (eg Sipgate) to avoid any complications in the future in possibly losing the number if I move away from BT. I also don't want to go messing with routers, etc

My question is can I use a third party provider for voice if I take a BT Retail FTTP product ? My plan was to get a brand new FTTP service (whilst keeping my copper service live), porting my number to say Sipgate then cancelling my current copper service ?

Thanks

Edited by mikegg (Mon 25-Jan-21 11:22:43)

Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Mon 25-Jan-21 11:27:08
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: mikegg] [link to this post]
 
Yes you can. You should be able to connect to any SIP provider over any reasonable broadband connection. I've done it with Virgin cable, ADSL2, EE 4G mobile broadband and FTTP in multiple locations.

I could even fire up a broadband connection in Australia and have my 01473 and 020 numbers picked up and made there if desired.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Mon 25-Jan-21 12:01:41
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: mikegg] [link to this post]
 
I'd just be a little wary of this.

Hopefully someone else can comment on it who may know more.

I'd be fairly sure OpenReach would cancel and replace the copper service as part of the FTTP install. I'm not sure they're geared up to leaving the old service in place and adding FTTP on top.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 25-Jan-21 14:23:39
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: mikegg] [link to this post]
 
I believe you would have to keep the FTTP order and the cease of the existing service separate and once the FTTP is installed place an order for the telephone number to be ported to a separate VOIP provider which should cancel the existing non FTTP service.
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Mon 25-Jan-21 15:49:08
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MilesR:
I'd just be a little wary of this.

Hopefully someone else can comment on it who may know more.

I'd be fairly sure OpenReach would cancel and replace the copper service as part of the FTTP install. I'm not sure they're geared up to leaving the old service in place and adding FTTP on top.


In reply to a post by dect:
I believe you would have to keep the FTTP order and the cease of the existing service separate and once the FTTP is installed place an order for the telephone number to be ported to a separate VOIP provider which should cancel the existing non FTTP service.


Apologies - I just addressed the technicalities of the running VoIP/SIP over a BT FTTP services (of course perfectly do-able) but nothing related to commercial / contractual *timing* related to porting a number over.

Agreed above. You can't port something you've already cancelled. Conversely if porting then results in a cancellation of an underlying access service, one better have the alternative service up, ready and running.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Mon 25-Jan-21 16:44:47
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
I just asked OpenReach whether you can have both FTTC and FTTP at the same time and they've said yes.
So in theory it could be done as proposed.

This gives me a lot of hope to do something similar later in the year.

https://twitter.com/openreachhelp/status/13537404572...
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Mon 25-Jan-21 16:55:08
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: MilesR] [link to this post]
 
Yes simultaneous FTTC and FTTP is completely feasible. Indeed many folks have both and it’s not as uncommon as “Dan” purports.

Also you can have multiple FTTP connections to the same property, so Dan aka @openreachHelp on Twitter is....wrong.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Mon 25-Jan-21 16:58:43
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Yes simultaneous FTTC and FTTP is completely feasible. Indeed many folks have both and it’s not as uncommon as “Dan” purports.

Also you can have multiple FTTP connections to the same property, so Dan aka @openreachHelp on Twitter is....wrong.


Doesn't surprise me that they're wrong about the multiple FTTP connections 🙂

The plan for me then would be to order FTTP near the end of my FTTC contractual period, get that up and running, then arrange for number porting of the landline on the FTTC connection to a VOIP provider, which should then cease that FTTC service.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 25-Jan-21 17:21:58
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
so Dan aka @openreachHelp on Twitter is....wrong.

He is "aloud" to be wong <sic>

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Mon 25-Jan-21 17:57:38
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
so Dan aka @openreachHelp on Twitter is....wrong.

He is "aloud" to be wong <sic>


I'm a massive grammar pedant and yet I completely missed that! 🤦🏻‍♂️
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 25-Jan-21 18:41:20
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Yes simultaneous FTTC and FTTP is completely feasible. Indeed many folks have both and it’s not as uncommon as “Dan” purports.


Yes. I have both.

You can either order a data-only FTTP service; or order an FTTP service with voice but with a new phone number, rather than porting your existing one (as the porting will cancel your phone line *and* attached broadband).

Many providers offer data-only FTTP. Even BT do now, at last: https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline
(although perversely, you may get a cheaper deal taking FTTP with voice)
Standard User MilesR
(newbie) Mon 25-Jan-21 21:46:58
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Yes simultaneous FTTC and FTTP is completely feasible. Indeed many folks have both and it’s not as uncommon as “Dan” purports.


Yes. I have both.

You can either order a data-only FTTP service; or order an FTTP service with voice but with a new phone number, rather than porting your existing one (as the porting will cancel your phone line *and* attached broadband).

Thanks for confirming 👍🏻

Many providers offer data-only FTTP. Even BT do now, at last: https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline
(although perversely, you may get a cheaper deal taking FTTP with voice)
Standard User simon194
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 26-Jan-21 08:32:36
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
I could even fire up a broadband connection in Australia and have my 01473 and 020 numbers picked up and made there if desired.

That's what I used to do when I used to have to travel. I have a SIP app on my phone so just needed to find a wifi hotspot and make UK calls at normal Sipgate rates and avoid the hefty roaming charges.
Standard User mikegg
(regular) Tue 26-Jan-21 10:16:49
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
Yes. I have both.

You can either order a data-only FTTP service; or order an FTTP service with voice but with a new phone number, rather than porting your existing one (as the porting will cancel your phone line *and* attached broadband).

Many providers offer data-only FTTP. Even BT do now, at last: https://www.bt.com/broadband/broadband-without-landline
(although perversely, you may get a cheaper deal taking FTTP with voice)


I presume that there is nothing wrong with taking FTTP with voice (such as the BT Retail product) but not using the voice component and porting your original number to a third party VOIP ?
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 26-Jan-21 18:25:19
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Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: mikegg] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mikegg:
I presume that there is nothing wrong with taking FTTP with voice (such as the BT Retail product) but not using the voice component and porting your original number to a third party VOIP ?


Certainly. When you port the original number, it will cease the underlying phone line and attached broadband services.

There is an alternative which is "renumber and port out", that can be used to keep the existing FTTC service running but on a new phone number, whilst moving the existing number to VOIP. It's a little-known trick, but AAISP can do it.
Standard User j0hn83
(knowledge is power) Wed 27-Jan-21 02:26:40
Print Post

Re: BT FTTP With Digital Voice - Alternative to Smart Hub 2


[re: mikegg] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mikegg:
I presume that there is nothing wrong with taking FTTP with voice (such as the BT Retail product) but not using the voice component and porting your original number to a third party VOIP ?


Porting the landline number that's part of a bundled broadband/phone package will cease the broadband.

If you try port your Digital Voice number I believe that will cease your FTTP.

You need to arrange it in such a way that you order FTTP separate to your existing landline number.
Either take a data only FTTP service (no landline number) or order FTTP with a new number.

If you are currently on FTTC then order FTTP separately. Wait till the FTTP is live and then port the FTTC number to a VOIP provider.
Your current ISP sees this as just another migration and this will cease the FTTC line.

As mentioned OpenReach do offer a service to overcome this called "renumber with number export".
It lets you port the number to VOIP and issues a new number, keeping the broadband active.
I'm also only aware of AAISP offering this to customers though.
I don't believe BT use it.
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