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Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Sat 01-May-21 22:58:34
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help for leased line router


[link to this post]
 
OR are installing a 1G leased line terminating with an Adva FSP150CP GE102PRO. What equipment do I need to purchase to present the connection for use on my LAN? it has SFP and RJ45 (management) ports but I'm not sure what components they do and don't supply and the engineers don't know either ... thanks!
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sat 01-May-21 23:27:07
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
I’m rather surprised that your service provider has given you no details. Who are they? They should tell you exactly what will be required, but in general (for late on a Saturday night)the service delivery options are either:

1. Fully managed service - where your service provider issues a fully configured and henceforth managed router that takes the connection from the Adva and presents the service that you then connect to your network. This will be something like a Cisco or Juniper box.

2. A “wires only” service where the network boundary is the SFP port on the Adva. You have to supply everything to connect up to that point and configure your associated IP address ranges and/or VLANs.

On the latter service it is typical to get a single mode optical handoff, but multi mode is also a possible handoff option - and will be specified at the time of service order. The optical connection will be duplex LC physically so you need to a duplex LC patch lead running to your own router, if it’s a wires only service. Openreach supply the SFP in the Adva and you simply plug your patch lead into it.

I won’t bother complicating the reply with other (unofficial) connectivity options. Life is generally easier if you just provide and equivalent single mode or multi mode as the case may be on your router interface.

I feel like there will be more questions and answers. So I will leave it there for now.

Edited by Pheasant (Sat 01-May-21 23:33:01)

Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Sat 01-May-21 23:33:43
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, yes it’s option 2 wires, I was hoping to get some suggestions of kit needed that others have found good solutions


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Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 11:34:00
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
The world is your oyster. Depends on various factors, not the least of which is the background, experience, technical capability and personal preference of the person(s) that will be administering the network - the possible spectrum of manufacturers and models is wide, as is the budget range.

By way of some more well known examples, I'd probably put something like Ubiquiti in the more 'user friendly' category, quite capable and with respectable performance but not always the cheapest. At the other extreme I would place MikroTik - enormously flexible and depending on the model huge bang for the buck, with a helpful community of users, but a blank canvas and not always necessarily for the (network technically) faint of heart. Then you have the traditional players like Cisco and Juniper Networks, which have their roots (budgets and technical capability) in the enterprise market.

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 02-May-21 11:36:02)

Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Sun 02-May-21 12:08:01
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
I am technically capable, but don't want to become a slave to something I don't want to use in a different way to my existing broadband connection ie simple but secure is good.

With Ubiquiti are you talking about EdgeRouter or dream machine?

Could I go even simpler, something simpler like domestic high end router eg Asus GT or Netgear Nighthawk?

I assume I can just connect the router to the RJ45 port labelled '3' in the Access labelled section on the Adva?

thanks!
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 02-May-21 12:44:42
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smtpbin:
I assume I can just connect the router to the RJ45 port labelled '3' in the Access labelled section on the Adva?


Sadly, probably not.

As has already been said, your service provider should be telling you exactly what they're providing (and if not, pester them until they do). But in general, on an Openreach EAD service, the RJ45 port is only used for 10M and 100M services. The SFP port is used for 1G services.

The Avro *probably* comes with an SFP module already plugged into the SFP port. You should have been told if it's single-mode or multi-mode, but most likely single-mode. You can find out by pulling it out - if it says "1310nm" then it's single-mode, "850nm" is multi-mode.

Your router therefore needs to be one with an SFP port - and most consumer-grade routers don't have SFP ports.

You'll need a 1G SFP module to plug into it (about £7 from fs.com) and you'll need a suitable fibre-optic patch cord between the two (about £3 from fs.com). Again, you need to get the single-mode or multi-mode right. For the SFP module, single mode is 1000baseLX, multimode is 1000baseSX.
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 13:35:14
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smtpbin:
With Ubiquiti are you talking about EdgeRouter or dream machine?

The EdgeRouters that have SFP (or SFP+) ports in them would be suitable. Dream Machine Pro would be the only suitable one from that part of their range as cylindrical shaped Dream Machine doesn't have the necessary SFP connectivity.

As said, you will not be able to use any of the RJ45 ports on the ADVA.

The only compatible port on a 1/1Gig service that you can hook up to is the Access SFP port labelled "3" immediately to the right of the RJ45 "3" Access port). This port will be pre-installed with an Adva SFP module from Openreach, either a single-mode or multi-mode SFP module (likely the former, but check), ready for you to connect into with the matching duplex LC fibre lead.

I would strongly urge you to get all the handover docs from your provider, together with the necessary addressing and/or VLAN details for your router ahead of the go live date. Also book in a phone appointment with their tech support handover team on the day of go live. This will save you a lot of time and trouble as these are not necessarily a simple connection like a domestic broadband service is. There is scope for plenty of stuff to go awry or be misconfigured, on their side as well as yours.

Having someone on the end of the phone whilst you're both looking at the connection is invaluable.

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 02-May-21 14:11:35)

Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 14:49:38
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
The Avro *probably* comes with an SFP module already plugged into the SFP port. You should have been told if it's single-mode or multi-mode, but most likely single-mode. You can find out by pulling it out - if it says "1310nm" then it's single-mode, "850nm" is multi-mode.

Maybe we should call them Agro! Just kidding they're alright really. It will definitely 100% be fitted with an Adva branded SFP module of the flavour ordered by the OPs service provider - even though we know from other threads on here, that its possible to plug your own SFP module in (or even a DAC) and have it work - OR demarc. is the optical side of their SFP mod.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 15:07:16
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by candlerb:
The Avro *probably* comes with an SFP module already plugged into the SFP port.
Would that be a Lancaster or a Vulcan? wink
Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 02-May-21 16:30:14
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, Adva. Avro is my energy supplier smile
Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Sun 02-May-21 17:40:51
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
This is what the 6th OR engineer left me with Adva

he installed the box on Friday saying he didn't know anything about switches and routers, and he took the packaging and manual and said it would be working once they checked the fibre back to the exchange was ok... hence my questions about the kit ... but I found the tails were just sitting on top of the rack unattached, so not sure what will happen next
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 18:03:30
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
6th engineer eh - that’s clearly not a completed install. Have they installed and spliced in the fibre to the splice tray?

Once it’s all done there should be a single core yellow fibre with an SC connector from the OR splice tray going into the network SFP which clearly still has its protective boot in.

There’s a possibility they didn’t leave the access SFP in the Adva as you didn’t have your gear ready to connect. What connection type did you order?

You’ll have to pardon me for saying, but this all sound incredibly vague for a service costing several hundred pounds per month.

Who is your service provider? If they’ve left you this clueless about the installation it’s an terrible indictment on their “customer service” (what customer service).

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 02-May-21 18:11:25)

Standard User candlerb
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 02-May-21 18:11:08
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
Can you take a closer look at the SFP (the thing with the purple bar on it?) Any label printed on it?

They should have provided and installed *two* SFPs:

- one in the Network port. This has a single fibre port (bidirectional) and connects to the leased line fibre
- one in the Access port. This has two fibre ports (transmit and receive) and connects to your router with a duplex fibre patch cord
Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Sun 02-May-21 18:20:35
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
thanks, I don't know what a splice tray is, its been pretty difficult to find any guide to terms, process and sequence for such an install. The OR engineers have all been helpful but all have limited knowledge to share except about their bit of the process.

Engineer 3 left these cables could on top of the rack Fibre internal cables just saying they were internal because external cables aren't fire proof

Is there a write up anywhere of the process end to end with terminology?
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 18:22:01
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: candlerb] [link to this post]
 
It’ll be a BiDi 1490 Adva SFP for what it’s worth. Like this one.

I agree there needs to be another access SFP in there, but there could be reasons why the OR engineers didn’t leave it.

I feel there is a back story here…
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 18:28:38
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
Typical install is for OR to install a fibre termination unit, known more generally as a splice tray or shelf as it is used to contain the fibre splices, where the lead in cable or blown fibre package (another type of ‘cable’) is spliced onto the yellow jacketed patch leads as per your photo.

Saying that they can also install without a splice tray - as it looks like they may have done with your install. In which case those 2 yellow jacketed fibre patch leads will run back to another nearby enclosure where they are spliced to the incoming fibre.

Your install simply looks incomplete. But it’s not up to OR to tell you what’s going on - that is the responsibility of your service provider…whomever they are.
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 02-May-21 19:01:00
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
On process (did you ask your service provider?)…there is no one size fits all. It very much depends on the particular customer circumstances and building etc. It’s completely possible for them to do it all in one (long) visit, although more usually it could take several visits.

In general OR need to complete their external cabling works to bring the fibre from the nearest node (or series of nodes) from the serving exchange. Depending where you are this could typically be micro-ducted and then a new fibre bundle is blown down the micro-duct to a new node enclosure installed in the nearest footpath chamber to the premises. See photo of mini node serving my connection being installed.

External cable from the outside mini node is then run into the building and to an enclosure where the external grade cable is transitioned to an internal grade cable. Here is mine showing the black, jelly impregenated tube (horrible messy stuff) coming into the top left side of the enclosure. You can see the fibre tubes with their stops closing off the tubes. This photo was taken prior to the internal cable being connected to the enclosure.

From there the internal cable or blown fibre tube runs to the final equipment rack/location where a 1U Prysmian fibre splice tray (innards shown here) again transitions to the yellow jacketed patch type leads with SC connectors that connect into the NTE - the Adva.

Just to re-iterate, with leased line service connections, they are not really standardised affairs, they are very much bespoke affairs, both in construction and execution. In any event your service provider is in the driving seat with Openreach being the guys on the tools and installing the "wires".

Edit - cleaning up typos and adding some more detail, after wine.

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 02-May-21 19:22:56)

Standard User Realalemadrid
(committed) Sun 02-May-21 19:13:30
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
I am thinking this thread sounds so unbelievable it could almost be a wind up, however the OP has provided photographic evidence of the Adva, unfortunately the multitude of OR visitors had neglected to connect the incoming fibre so it wasn't likely to work even when the 6th OR person said it would. Do these guys ( or gals) have any training at all. It is completely beyond belief.frown
Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Sun 02-May-21 19:16:38
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
yes I do have a plastic box that transitions from external cable to internal yellow cables.

The biggest challenge for me has been that none of the OR engineers know much more than their specific task so piecing it all together is difficult. I expect engineer 7 will come next week to finish the internals whilst engineer 8 checks the fibre route to the exchange .The service provider had no control over this process, the OR engineers have just appeared randomly without telling them or booking. one of the engineers said they were just doing overtime and I was just next on his list, we've seen 6 different engineers so far, each not knowing what was previously done. I am confident they will complete the job, albeit slightly disorganised.

The back story BTW was that another person told me to make sure I got wires only, not managed, but of course that left me unsure after the Adva turned up as I thought they were going to present a simple RJ45.

Anyway, I think my question is answered which was what do I need to have from my side, which seems to be an SFP capable router to plug into Access 3 SFP (and an SFP patch cable).

so thank-you!
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 02-May-21 20:22:28
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
No that wont do at all. This is a business connection, so they play by your rules.

As much as I needed service activation, I drew the line at unannounced and late evening engagements. This really is in the absolute remit and control of your service provider.

Openreach *will* work overnight if you tell them. depends on the rockets that get fired. Believe me I know,

Really I think you should escalate the situation within your service provider. Are you new to them?
Standard User jabuzzard
(experienced) Sun 02-May-21 21:55:21
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smtpbin:
Anyway, I think my question is answered which was what do I need to have from my side, which seems to be an SFP capable router to plug into Access 3 SFP (and an SFP patch cable).


Except that you appear to be currently missing an SFP in the Adva for that to work. Which IMHO is little more than a wildly over the top media converter anyway.

In terms of what you need in the Ubiquiti line of things an EdgeRouter 6P is what you want for a 1Gbps connection. While the cheaper EdgerouterX SFP does take SFP's it can't route 1Gbps symmetrically. Well it's work you just won't be able to take full advantage of the connection.

If they are not going to provide an SFP, for Access3 then you could do one of two things, get an RJ45 SFP and use an ordinary patch lead or use a SFP+ direct attach cable to an SFP capable router (while they are technically for 10Gbps some testing (like on every 1Gbps SFP port I could lay my hands on, which is a lot) shows they just work at 1Gbps too.
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-May-21 10:14:57
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
OT; If the Dream Machine Pro is any indication of future direction, looks like UQ will drop the MIPS64 processor / 1 GB of ram combo in the EdgeRouter line at some point in favour of quad-core ARM Cortex-A57 processor @1.7 GHz in their new generations of routers.

Seems that is the direction of MikroTik are also going. Departing from the high CPU & core count Tilera architecture in their 1000-series routers and adopting the more dense but powerful ARM-8 based Annapurna Alpine AL32400 SoC, in the 2000-series; most recently in the new(ish) CCR2004 router.

Basically using the same ARM Cortex A57 processor family, as the Dream Machine Pro, but wrapping it inside an Annapurna SoC and running at the same clock rate.

Interestingly UQ have also adopted the Annapurna Alpine AL32400 in their forthcoming UniFi USW-Leaf 48-port 25GbE / 100GbE "switch for the masses"....not sure what masses (yet)!
Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Mon 03-May-21 10:43:19
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
would you recommend the Dream Machine Pro on balance for a new install?

Edited by smtpbin (Mon 03-May-21 10:56:29)

Standard User ft247
(member) Mon 03-May-21 12:33:27
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Interestingly UQ have also adopted the Annapurna Alpine AL32400 in their forthcoming UniFi USW-Leaf 48-port 25GbE / 100GbE "switch for the masses"....not sure what masses (yet)!


OT... that switch is quite the move for a vendor I had firmly categorised in the 'small to medium business' market.
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-May-21 14:21:55
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
It'll be fine on balance for what you want. Its goes well beyond the brief for a standard router, obviously, but base throughput/forwarding, IDS/IPS, and IPsec performance isn't shabby at all.

The biggest 'issue' I can think of with UQ is the stability of some of their firmware releases. Hello there all you UQ access point users!

There were some early doors reports of the DM-P being prone to "stalls" but that should be been resolved by now, it was over 12 months ago...

[Note I'm not a DM-P user, but I have a stack of their AP's of various flavours and vintages, so the corporates traits become apparent]

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 03-May-21 14:22:52)

Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-May-21 14:26:24
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: ft247] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ft247:
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Interestingly UQ have also adopted the Annapurna Alpine AL32400 in their forthcoming UniFi USW-Leaf 48-port 25GbE / 100GbE "switch for the masses"....not sure what masses (yet)!


OT... that switch is quite the move for a vendor I had firmly categorised in the 'small to medium business' market.

....if they ever manage to bring it fully to market, it could be a baby beast killer. I'm as confused as you as to the UQ strategic direction. I think they too might be themselves sometimes 😂
Standard User smtpbin
(newbie) Tue 04-May-21 16:57:54
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
as it turns out, engineers 7 and 8 arrived today and 8 commissioned the Adva as 7 checked the fibre back to wherever its going. They were very pleasant and helpful and had it all completed in 4 hours.

I asked about the missing SFP but apparently I've got the very latest Adva which now supports 1Gbps on RJ45, so they didn't need to install one in the Access 3 socket. On to testing next once I have handover...
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 04-May-21 20:32:11
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smtpbin:
as it turns out, engineers 7 and 8 arrived today and 8 commissioned the Adva as 7 checked the fibre back to wherever its going. They were very pleasant and helpful and had it all completed in 4 hours.

I asked about the missing SFP but apparently I've got the very latest Adva which now supports 1Gbps on RJ45, so they didn't need to install one in the Access 3 socket. On to testing next once I have handover...

Well that's a first - using the RJ45 for a new 1G/1G service - I have heard that it could be used for bearer upgrades where the copper port was previously being used to deliver say a 100M service - but never heard of them using it for a fresh new 1G service.

I keep asking - but who is your service provider?
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Tue 04-May-21 21:24:12
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: smtpbin] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smtpbin:
I asked about the missing SFP but apparently I've got the very latest Adva which now supports 1Gbps on RJ45, so they didn't need to install one in the Access 3 socket.
After looking at the images, to which you provided links, I suspected that your 1 Gbps access would be provisioned via the metallic port.

Who is your service provider, please?
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 05-May-21 22:36:54
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
In reply to a post by smtpbin:
I asked about the missing SFP but apparently I've got the very latest Adva which now supports 1Gbps on RJ45, so they didn't need to install one in the Access 3 socket.
After looking at the images, to which you provided links, I suspected that your 1 Gbps access would be provisioned via the metallic port.

Who is your service provider, please?

Done a bit of digging and it would appear that the RJ45 port was added as a valid interface to the Openreach EAD spec from Rev 2.0 (May 2020) of the Supplier Information Note. See latest SIN v2.1 in force from November 2020.

My EAD service went live in March and although I was happy with the SFP interface, there are of course others that would like to use the copper port for 1G/1G services. But it wasn’t offered, to my knowledge, by my CP.

I do wonder who the service provider is of the OP, if they ever return 🤣
Standard User tdw42
(member) Wed 05-May-21 23:19:10
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
The addition of the copper gigabit interface option has been brought up previously https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4678849-bt...
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Thu 06-May-21 00:33:22
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
Done a bit of digging and it would appear that the RJ45 port was added as a valid interface to the Openreach EAD spec from Rev 2.0 (May 2020) of the Supplier Information Note. See latest SIN v2.1 in force from November 2020.
Thank you for the link. I knew I had read the information from somewhere and it was not a dream!
My EAD service went live in March and although I was happy with the SFP interface, there are of course others that would like to use the copper port for 1G/1G services. But it wasn’t offered, to my knowledge, by my CP.
For a "wires", not a managed, service it really depends upon what equipment the end-user would like to connect to the Adva FSP150, of course.
I do wonder who the service provider is of the OP, if they ever return 🤣
Yes, indeed.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Thu 06-May-21 00:38:56
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tdw42:
The addition of the copper gigabit interface option has been brought up previously https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4678849-bt...
Ah, yes, having looked at that post it all comes back to me. Thank you.
Standard User Pheasant
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 06-May-21 05:30:00
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Re: help for leased line router


[re: tdw42] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tdw42:
The addition of the copper gigabit interface option has been brought up previously https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4678849-bt...

Right you are…and I totally forgot I had replied to your post in that thread too!

I will ask my CP if the copper port is active on my service, either automatically or manually. In theory it should be. I could manually check but it’s a bit of a faff swapping fibre and copper modules on the router.
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