Unfortunate not-spot, can anything be done?

Hi all,

I'm trying to sort out fibre (900mbit ideally) to a property - no. 24 @ BT39 0SW Currently the estimate is 27-32mbit.

Turns out that this property is connected to a cabinet 1400m away (despite Fibre CAB31 being opposite the property 5 meters or so away)

Additionally, number 11 on this road can order BT full fibre 900 no problems.

To be able to provide a FTTP service to my house, Openreach say a property must be within approximately 150m of a connection point due to Engineering restrictions. The nearest active FTTP connection point is approximately 350m away.

I have investigated FTTPoD and the quote is roughly £5,000 for 300mbit.

Is there any scope via some method to get normal full fibre 900 somehow? or is my only option to pay the crazy install fee/monthly costs of FTTPoD?

I know you guys are a lot more knowledgeable than me about this stuff, so any input would be great
thanks

Edited by thesimo (Sun 13-Jun-21 15:10:44)

A few things to note:

* FTTP does not use cabinets at all. The fibre goes to a splitter node and from there straight to a fibre aggregation node. (*)
* FTTPoD 330/50 and FTTPoD 1000/220 are the same thing. If you see 330/50 it just means the database hasn't been updated recently. (**)
* If you got a desktop quote for FTTPoD for £5K, this doesn't mean anything. The final price could be lower, or these days much likely higher. You'll need to place an order and pay a non-refundable £250+VAT to get an actual price.

Anyway, it sounds like you've already spoken to Openreach and they've explained that they cannot connect you and why. Therefore you know this isn't just a database error, and some infrastructure would have to be built to serve you. FTTPoD (or CFP if you have some neighbours you can combine with) seems like the only realistic option.

If they just had to run 350m of fibre between poles to the nearest splitter, you'd think that it wouldn't cost much. But these days, post-survey prices for even "simple" FTTPoD jobs are coming in at around £8K+VAT. There is a spreadsheet of forum users results here.

You could ask about getting your copper diverted to cab 31, but this is only an outside chance. It's only likely to happen if this was an infill cabinet and your property was forgotten about when they were migrating lines over. It can still be a fight though - there are experiences on the forum you can read.

(*) Except in a few rare ultra-rural cases with a subtended headend in a cabinet.
(**) Or in a few rare cases that the equipment in the headend exchange is ECI, but in your case your neighbours can get 900 so that's definitely not the problem.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

* FTTPoD 330/50 and FTTPoD 1000/220 are the same thing. If you see 330/50 it just means the database hasn't been updated recently. (**)

(**) Or in a few rare cases that the equipment in the headend exchange is ECI, but in your case your neighbours can get 900 so that's definitely not the problem.

This is an interesting, I wonder if its possible to get 900 via FTTPoD even though all the checkers are reporting 330/50

Sounds interesting! What the heck is a subtended exchange?! I worked there years and never heard of it.

Almost certainly yes. Sometimes ISPs will only sell 300 rather than 900 when they don't have enough cross-connect capacity at the headend exchange. However, if your neighbours are getting 900, you'll get it too.

So don't worry that FTTPoD will get you any less than "regular" FTTP, because it's the same network. Personally I find 300M is plenty, although a bit faster upload would be nice.

In reply to a post by thesimo:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

* FTTPoD 330/50 and FTTPoD 1000/220 are the same thing. If you see 330/50 it just means the database hasn't been updated recently. (**)

(**) Or in a few rare cases that the equipment in the headend exchange is ECI, but in your case your neighbours can get 900 so that's definitely not the problem.

This is an interesting, I wonder if its possible to get 900 via FTTPoD even though all the checkers are reporting 330/50

It is.

https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

900/115Mbps FoD Ultra2: £174.00 Monthly**

The build cost is the same regardless of which package you choose. It's just the monthly price for the initial term that differs between different speeds taken.

Almost all final surveys we've seen in the last 2 years have been a minimum of £8k.
That includes many who had desktop quotes well below that.

From reading your post above it sounds like paying for FTTPoD would be the only way to guarantee you get FTTP soon.
Failing that you just need to wait and hope they decide to extend the network to you.

Even if you were within 350m that does not automatically mean you would have received it anyway. Capacity is usually built for a set number of properties.
There are many properties with FTTP literally next door who have no way of ordering FTTP other than through the expensive FTTPoD product.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Almost all final surveys we've seen in the last 2 years have been a minimum of £8k.
That includes many who had desktop quotes well below that.

A minimum of £8k is an entirely depressing figure

In reply to a post by _Icaras_:

Sounds interesting! What the heck is a subtended exchange?! I worked there years and never heard of it.

A subtended head-end.

See the last part of this article: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/a-look...

In reply to a post by _Icaras_:

Sounds interesting! What the heck is a subtended exchange?! I worked there years and never heard of it.

Subtended Head-End.
Basically a mini-OLT. Can be installed in vented pods bolted on to a PCP.
They use an FTTC cabinets power and spare fibre.

It can both boost the range of FTTP from the Head-End or can save having to pull in new spine cabling. Mainly used in rural areas.

In reply to a post by thesimo:

This is an interesting, I wonder if its possible to get 900 via FTTPoD even though all the checkers are reporting 330/50

Yes. I read a forum post from someone who ordered 900M FTTPoD; if I remember correctly, the process was that the service was initially delivered as 300M and then regraded to 900M immediately after going live.

Cerberus is expensive for 900M, so if I were you, I'd order 300/50: this is the sweet spot in their price list, only £15 per month more than 115/20. Then just live with this for a year, and switch provider later if you find you need more speed.

Alternatively, once your FTTPoD is in, you could immediately order a *second* FTTP service at 900M from the likes of BT or Zen. There would be no extra installation fee, but Openreach would either install a second ONT, or would swap out your 1-port ONT for one of the new 4-port ONTs (I've not yet heard of anyone who has one though - the older 4-port ONTs were phased out a couple of years ago)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Cerberus is expensive for 900M, so if I were you, I'd order 300/50: this is the sweet spot in their price list, only £15 per month more than 115/20. Then just live with this for a year, and switch provider later if you find you need more speed.

This sounds reasonable. I think the next move is to do a full FTTPoD survey and assess the damage to the wallet

The Openreach checker says you're in scope for FTTP, so my advice would be to just wait for them to get to you.

In my contact with Openreach they confirmed an FTTP project is in place to cover this area, however it could be 2 years or more. If it was 6 months or less than a year, I could maybe wait.

I assume there is no way to get visibility into these types of projects?

In reply to a post by thesimo:

In my contact with Openreach they confirmed an FTTP project is in place to cover this area, however it could be 2 years or more. If it was 6 months or less than a year, I could maybe wait.

I assume there is no way to get visibility into these types of projects?

If you go for a survey and you're already in scope they may not do the survey and may supply some context around the fact that you're already in scope.

If for a moment the FoD option was feasible (it may not be for the reasons given above for the native build out) you’re still potentially looking at a 12 month timescale to get FoD built.

It’s an (increasingly very) expensive niche service offering and takes time to get built. Believe me there is no priority to get your service built over any other jobs.

Openreach (in my view at least) appear to be disincentivising FoD via the £8K floor price for surveyed quotes most folk now see. Even for what are quite straightforward connections.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by thesimo:

In my contact with Openreach they confirmed an FTTP project is in place to cover this area, however it could be 2 years or more. If it was 6 months or less than a year, I could maybe wait.

I assume there is no way to get visibility into these types of projects?

If you go for a survey and you're already in scope they may not do the survey and may supply some context around the fact that you're already in scope.

No, but I doubt it will be two years if you're already on the edge of FTTP commercial coverage. As others have said, FTTPoD could take over a year.

If you need more than ~30Mbps then you could load balance two FTTC services (just make sure at least one is on a short contract), or mix it with 4G if the signal is decent, to tide you over until FTTP arrives.

"Additionally, number 11 on this road can order BT full fibre 900 no problems."

Do you know the people that live at number 11? Are you in line of sight? Have you considered paying for them to get a connection and using a point-to-point wireless connection to get it to your house?

I have relatives 440m away on a nearby hill, who can get this speed, I did investigate using my unifi gear to get a ptp link wirelessly at 1Gb+ but I'd need to get on the roof to confirm if there is actually line of sight between the two. I think it was about £1400 for that gear + getting it up high somehow.

That would be a bargain compared to the cost of FTTPoD, plus you can have it up and running within a couple of weeks rather than typical 6-12 months. (My FTTPoD took nearly 18 months, FWIW).

Oh, and you get to keep or sell the equipment when you no longer need it.

In reply to a post by thesimo:

I have relatives 440m away on a nearby hill, who can get this speed, I did investigate using my unifi gear to get a ptp link wirelessly at 1Gb+ but I'd need to get on the roof to confirm if there is actually line of sight between the two. I think it was about £1400 for that gear + getting it up high somehow.

I’d recommend you use 60 GHz based gear at that distance and speed. I’ve used pre-paired MikroTik wire dishes at similar distance and they do work well, but they won’t tolerate (any) foliage in the way!

£1400 sounds a bit high.

Surely a couple of 60GHz units at around £150 each plus some other infrastructure should com ein at under £500.

no foliage, just the potential for a house roof to just peek up into view and break the line of sight. I'd need to get right up onto the roof and shine a laser from one to the other at night or something.

The destination is a standalone house so there is scope there to put a mast of some sort up to peek into view if that's even possible.

even better! I have very limited experience with any kind of wireless ptp link, so Unifi probably just auto selected an expensive model.

Go on te UI forums and ask there for advice on what would suit you best. There will be plenty of help and some will even do your link budget calcs - approx.

I also have a very good price, legitimate, source, for UI in te UK so if you go that route, I can pass details on.

Any contact would be great, I'm already well into the UI ecosystem at this point

In reply to a post by thesimo:

no foliage, just the potential for a house roof to just peek up into view and break the line of sight. I'd need to get right up onto the roof and shine a laser from one to the other at night or something.

The destination is a standalone house so there is scope there to put a mast of some sort up to peek into view if that's even possible.

If there’s a chimney its a great place to get height and a stable mounting, that is if your relatives don’t mind a small 30cm dish on one side.

This is the MT kit I’ve used on a ~800m link:
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/33239-mikrot...

I used a 6m length of alloy scaffold tube as the mount, as we were mounting in a field and secured it to some post and rail fencing. At the other end more scaff. tube, but arranged over an existing concrete pad, expansion bolted into brackets, arranged in a tripod arrangement. Terrain is undulating but the poles give enough height for a clear view.

Just need to run Cat5e or similar back from each dish, either to a PoE enabled switch port or via a PoE injector.

I can definitely get access to the chimney of both properties, and on the lower of the two, I could basically put up a tower as high as I want, as there are 3 trees along the boundary I could use to keep the pole out of sight, but still with a clear shot at reaching the other property.

This is great info, thank you.

I just need a clever way to determine if I have LOS, i wonder if binoculars on a roof in the middle of a housing development would look sus

Over 450m you should be able to simply eyeball it or use a pair of binoculars to check.

In reply to a post by jpm:

No, but I doubt it will be two years if you're already on the edge of FTTP commercial coverage. As others have said, FTTPoD could take over a year.

If you need more than ~30Mbps then you could load balance two FTTC services (just make sure at least one is on a short contract), or mix it with 4G if the signal is decent, to tide you over until FTTP arrives.

I think you replied to the wrong person

In reply to a post by thesimo:

I just need a clever way to determine if I have LOS,

Drone with camera.

Attach disco lights to chimney. Return to other property at night time

Think I'm going to have to do try something like this

Get one of these cheap laser pens with a multi dot shape for teh front - cross, bird, heart &c and try that. If the shape is fully visible, straight on and then up/down/left/right by a couple of degrees you should be fine.

My TV/DAB/FM aerials are on a 6m scaffold pole! Don't forget lightning protectors on the Ethernet - UI do their own compatible versions.

There is some interesting info by Ubiquiti at https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/204952224-airM... There is a link to a tool that uses terrain data to estimate the signal strength etc. - you just need to set the endpoints and the elevation of each device - it doesn't know about trees or buildings, but it's a starting point.

(Note: you need to remove the trailing dot from the URL)

In reply to a post by MHC:

Don't forget lightning protectors on the Ethernet - UI do their own compatible versions.

Mine failed its set task…

https://postimg.cc/njw0nscG

This is one end of a 800m link. Alignment done with the aid of an eyeball and cherry picker!

https://postimg.cc/xcp1GnpN

Edit:
MikroTik have now got a new 60GHz dish pair. This one is available with a scope mount for a smidge under £6.

https://i.mt.lv/cdn/rb_images/1987_l.jpg

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 14-Jun-21 18:51:55)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by MHC:

Don't forget lightning protectors on the Ethernet - UI do their own compatible versions.

Mine failed its set task…

https://postimg.cc/njw0nscG

You guys don’t mess around. I assume I may treat the switch that’s directly connected to it to be a consumable item if that can happen.
I’d ideally have optical between the main switch and that, as the network/power would be fed via an outbuilding.

I have got my hands on a 3 tier fireman’s ladder so I can Chuck something bright up that and see how I get on

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

There is some interesting info by Ubiquiti at https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/204952224-airM... There is a link to a tool that uses terrain data to estimate the signal strength etc. - you just need to set the endpoints and the elevation of each device - it doesn't know about trees or buildings, but it's a starting point.

I actually used this tool, it’s awesome. The house I’m connecting is the very top of the hill, so I think I can mount it on the gable wall and shoot it between the two nearest houses. And it’s downhill from there.
Very clever tool.

Edited by thesimo (Mon 14-Jun-21 19:12:15)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by thesimo:

no foliage, just the potential for a house roof to just peek up into view and break the line of sight. I'd need to get right up onto the roof and shine a laser from one to the other at night or something.

The destination is a standalone house so there is scope there to put a mast of some sort up to peek into view if that's even possible.

If there’s a chimney its a great place to get height and a stable mounting, that is if your relatives don’t mind a small 30cm dish on one side.

This is the MT kit I’ve used on a ~800m link:
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/33239-mikrot...

I used a 6m length of alloy scaffold tube as the mount, as we were mounting in a field and secured it to some post and rail fencing. At the other end more scaff. tube, but arranged over an existing concrete pad, expansion bolted into brackets, arranged in a tripod arrangement. Terrain is undulating but the poles give enough height for a clear view.

Just need to run Cat5e or similar back from each dish, either to a PoE enabled switch port or via a PoE injector.

I use a pair of these for my parents who live out in the countryside in Ireland - got a FTTP connection ordered to the nearest house to them that can get it and then a 1.2KM link with these which is solid - full gigabit throughput and been running without fail since March last year.

In reply to a post by thesimo:

I’d ideally have optical between the main switch and that, as the network/power would be fed via an outbuilding.

Definitely a good idea. Netgear GS110TP is a great device for this (SFP + 802.3af PoE). It's a very decent "Smart Managed Pro" switch with web, telnet CLI and SNMP, and of course SFP ports for the fibre.

Avoid the "Smart Managed Plus" switches - web only and no SNMP.

In reply to a post by bkehoe:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by thesimo:

no foliage, just the potential for a house roof to just peek up into view and break the line of sight. I'd need to get right up onto the roof and shine a laser from one to the other at night or something.

The destination is a standalone house so there is scope there to put a mast of some sort up to peek into view if that's even possible.

If there’s a chimney its a great place to get height and a stable mounting, that is if your relatives don’t mind a small 30cm dish on one side.

This is the MT kit I’ve used on a ~800m link:
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/33239-mikrot...

I used a 6m length of alloy scaffold tube as the mount, as we were mounting in a field and secured it to some post and rail fencing. At the other end more scaff. tube, but arranged over an existing concrete pad, expansion bolted into brackets, arranged in a tripod arrangement. Terrain is undulating but the poles give enough height for a clear view.

Just need to run Cat5e or similar back from each dish, either to a PoE enabled switch port or via a PoE injector.

I use a pair of these for my parents who live out in the countryside in Ireland - got a FTTP connection ordered to the nearest house to them that can get it and then a 1.2KM link with these which is solid - full gigabit throughput and been running without fail since March last year.

Really nice work. I bet your parents appreciate your efforts 👍

For the benefit of the OP, did you do anything particular for line of sight checks or dish alignment? Personally I just eyeballed it from one to the other then used the dish alignment LEDs and the link was solid, but your link distance is much greater again.

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 15-Jun-21 09:40:56)

In reply to a post by bkehoe:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by thesimo:

no foliage, just the potential for a house roof to just peek up into view and break the line of sight. I'd need to get right up onto the roof and shine a laser from one to the other at night or something.

The destination is a standalone house so there is scope there to put a mast of some sort up to peek into view if that's even possible.

If there’s a chimney its a great place to get height and a stable mounting, that is if your relatives don’t mind a small 30cm dish on one side.

This is the MT kit I’ve used on a ~800m link:
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/33239-mikrot...

I used a 6m length of alloy scaffold tube as the mount, as we were mounting in a field and secured it to some post and rail fencing. At the other end more scaff. tube, but arranged over an existing concrete pad, expansion bolted into brackets, arranged in a tripod arrangement. Terrain is undulating but the poles give enough height for a clear view.

Just need to run Cat5e or similar back from each dish, either to a PoE enabled switch port or via a PoE injector.

I use a pair of these for my parents who live out in the countryside in Ireland - got a FTTP connection ordered to the nearest house to them that can get it and then a 1.2KM link with these which is solid - full gigabit throughput and been running without fail since March last year.

These look very competitively priced! I’ve heard a lot of nice things about this company regarding their switches with 10g support.

MikroTik provide some of the best bang for the buck in the industry. These dish kits really require minimal configuration.

Once you get into their routers they can do many of the things possible with Cisco and Juniper and they like and have enterprise level features and performance, but the learning curve can be a little steep for the uninitiated if you venture off the beaten track.