FTTPoD - Availability Question

My brother is on cab 23 CHESLYN HAY in Cannock

WS11 8JJ

The cab shows as FTTPoD 1gig is available but he can not get it.

We have checked the addresses in Forge Close and they are all on CAB 23 but only some can get FTTPoD.

Number 1 can get 1gig according to the BT Retail site but 40 can not. Thats just one example.

Why would this be?

The estate is somewhat new, built around 11 years ago.

In reply to a post by Seansmit17:

Why would this be?

Note that FTTPoD is not FTTP.

FTTP (shown as "WBC FTTP" when available) is the retail FTTP service that normal end-users buy.

FTTP On Demand (FTTPoD) is a bespoke, build-to-order service that typically costs £10,000 or more to install and takes 6-12 months or more. It's nominally available to every property in FTTC footprint, apart from MDUs. So if number 40 is MDU (flats) then that's one reason why it may not be shown.

If you really want to order it, one of the handful of providers that resell FTTPoD will be able to help you. There is a non-refundable £300 fee to get a survey done to find out the price in your location.

Edited by candlerb (Fri 25-Jun-21 15:35:09)

Ok, Got it.

So it this is not FTTPoD that can be ordered on the odd numbered houses what is it? And why cant the even number places on the other side of the road get it even though they are on the same cab?

In reply to a post by Seansmit17:

So it this is not FTTPoD that can be ordered on the odd numbered houses what is it? And why cant the even number places on the other side of the road get it even though they are on the same cab?

If those aren't MDUs then it could just be a database anomaly.

If you actually want to spend £10,000+ on FTTPoD, then contact a service provider like Cerberus, who will be able to help you resolve any database issues to get your order through.

Number 1 has FTTP available to them and number 40 doesn't, they would have to go down the FTTPoD process which could take 12 months and cost thousands.

I know... but the question is WHY

When putting the addresses in on BT retail as if I wanted to order, The odd number houses can get fibre of speed up to 1gig but the odd numbered houses can not and are stuck with FTTC

In reply to a post by Seansmit17:

I know... but the question is WHY

I was trying to HELP, you really need to reread your original post and also your thread title as its really unclear what you was trying to say, for example below you talk about FTTPoD not being available.

In reply to a post by Seansmit17:

The cab shows as FTTPoD 1gig is available but he can not get it.

I thought that what was showing as availible to order on the BT site was the FTTPoD since in the adsl checker it shows the same speeds. I was not aware that it was not the same thing.

So does your brother live in a Flat/Apartment? are the properties that can get FTTP Houses/Bungalows? if the answers are 'yes' to the first question and 'yes' to the second question then candlerb could be spot on

Edit: or Openreach have decided to avoid Flats/Apartments.

Edited by deleted (Fri 25-Jun-21 16:07:28)

In reply to a post by Seansmit17:

When putting the addresses in on BT retail as if I wanted to order, The odd number houses can get fibre of speed up to 1gig but the odd numbered houses can not and are stuck with FTTC

Ah, then it sounds like we're *not* talking about FTTPoD, but real FTTP. BT retail won't show you FTTPoD (and therefore I'm not sure why you raised FTTPoD).

To be sure, enter the addresses into the BT wholesale checker, using the Address Checker option if you don't know the phone numbers. FTTP will show as "WBC FTTP", whereas other properties will show as "FTTPoD". You should think of FTTPoD as meaning "FTTP is *not* available"

Anyway, if we are talking about FTTP rather than FTTPoD, then it sounds like simply FTTP has been installed along one side of the street but not the other.

Cabinets are a red herring, because FTTP is not fed from cabinets: it's fed from fibre aggregation nodes. They can run FTTP along one set of ducts but not along another, and that's their planning decision. Maybe there was a particular difficulty getting FTTP to the other side of the street.

I just quickly looked at street view of the road and one side seem to have houses and the other side MDU's so that's probably the reason.

Just what I had done but you beat me to the post.

Odd numbers are single dwellings, even are MDUs

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Just what I had done but you beat me to the post.

Sorry kitcat, my bad

Turns out yes, He lives in a flat, and that's what's on his side of the road... the side that's not got FTTP.

Kinda sucks, for him. But he is planning on moving next year... Maybe he will move somewhere that has Virgin or CF xD

I wonder what it is that stopped the install on that side

MDUs are a pain to install, because they need the landlord's permission. I would guess that the landlord outright refused permission to install, or (almost as bad) simply did not respond to requests from Openreach.

There are potential legal avenues that Openreach can pursue, but they probably don't want to waste time fighting when they can move onto more productive projects.

I think it's pretty obvious, the fact that all the odd numbered houses are single dwellings and the evens are flats which are a problem for FTTP installation so they can't have it.

Same happened here on our new build estate, there is a whole area of MDU's much like this one and they have all been skipped.

Worse still there are a few houses and coach houses mixed in with them and they also got skipped!

I spoke to one of the guys overseeing the build and he mentioned that the freeholds are all held by overseas companies who were impossible to contact at the planning stage.

Will be interesting to see how effective the new legislation that was passed a few months affects this in a practical sense. I believe various stakeholders are now trying to agree the ‘ground rules’ of engagement that that act requires.

I'll be interested to see what happens when copper switchoff eventually comes along, and service providers tell their customers that they can no longer have phone or broadband because their landlord didn't permit the replacement service to be installed.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I'll be interested to see what happens when copper switchoff eventually comes along, and service providers tell their customers that they can no longer have phone or broadband because their landlord didn't permit the replacement service to be installed.

Plenty of companies drill through walls with only occupier permission. I've seen both Sky and Virgin do this, so the threshold will be variable.

The problem landlords appear to be those that are faceless corporations with headquarters overseas, or the "social landlord" / Housing Association which is so overworked it does not have the team to asses.

Renters & Leaseholders will be campaigning on their MPs to fix this mess. I had hoped this recent legislation would solve.

The problem being that in blocks of flats the comms feeds are likely to be in a room not accessible except by the freeholder of the property. You can't have direct fibre feeds up the wall of a tower block., or even a relatively low-rise building. You couldn't even get enough fibres to them.

In London the AltNets have had the MDU market to themselves. Hyperoptic, G.Network and Community Fibre seem to have the lions share.

Openreach are barely on the scene.

I guess it depends if you have a block with common services. Small blocks of up to 3 floors don’t seem to around here. Maybe those built since 2010 might?

Openreach and Virgin have no problems running wires up the side of buildings here.

Edited by jchamier (Sat 26-Jun-21 13:39:16)

It is very common for the cupboards holding services, electricity, telephony, etc to be accessed via a commonly held key. The cabling often goes up through risers .. the main issue being getting from these riser cupboards to the individual properties.

Regulations have changed a lot also, fireproof fixings, firestopping of holes between floors etc, it all costs extra.

‘Invisible-light’ fibre cables are a nice idea, thin enough to be glued unobtrusively on the skirting lines, nice idea, but in two blocks I visited where it had retrospectively fitted, there were faults aplenty. Often meaning many hours to rerun a new feed into the flat, using more robust eezee bend cables.

It’s a ball ache

Speaking to my brother about this and there is a "comms" coubord.

He sent a picture and it looks like it all SKY/TV coax into amps/splitters.

So there is somewhere for the kit to go for FTTP if needed.

That's good news .

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Renters & Leaseholders will be campaigning on their MPs to fix this mess. I had hoped this recent legislation would solve.

Looks like the actual mechanics of the ‘regulations’ that make the act enforceable, i.e. tribunal processes etc. are still in the consultation phase until August….

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/consulta...

In reply to a post by candlerb:

MDUs are a pain to install, because they need the landlord's permission. I would guess that the landlord outright refused permission to install, or (almost as bad) simply did not respond to requests from Openreach.

There are potential legal avenues that Openreach can pursue, but they probably don't want to waste time fighting when they can move onto more productive projects.

Does seem the FTTP companies treat rentals different to normal telco companies.

There seems to be an assumption on cityfibre's checker for instance that a flat is rented (people can own flats), and that any flat is a HMO.

I did manage to get cityfibre to change their checker for my address, they said they would still roll their service out to these addresses (street works) even without the checker been changed, just they wouldnt do an install without a letter from the LL.

Are openreach been harsher then and not even doing the street works?

Just reread posts its as much about ground ownership as the building so leasehold flat owners also affected, yeah this is a mess, but I think cityfibre are at least still doing the streetworks, installing the little boxes outside of each property. on the pavement.

I wonder if this is why openreach skipped Leicester, the city is largely a mixture of social rented properties and terraced housing much of which is rented.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 01-Jul-21 17:15:06)

MDU's are complex. Irrespective of the ownership status of the individual dwelling, the common and communal areas will either be owned by a freeholder or perhaps in some sort of shared ownership.

So for the communications companies, there is a need to get permission (wayleave) from the body authorised on behalf of the "owner" of these shared/common/communal areas to install cabling etc. This is where matters typically come unstuck.

The new legislation which was passed earlier this year is an attempt by government to unblock this (pardon the pun) situation for the service providers, where the engagement with the 'landlord' is stalled or they are unresponsive. my understanding, is that presently the lower level processes and procedures (as noted in my post above) are yet to be agreed and properly formulated - like the tribunal process for non-responsive landlords. So although the act itself is law, its not really yet effective as there are no real mechanisms in place with industry and land owners (yet) for it to work.

Watched BNI building a splitter node this morning outside a long row of MDUs near Penarth Marina ( 4 -6 stories. high). They have been doing most of the FTTP work in and around Cardiff. There are no single dwellings around there so I assume some places they are succeeding in getting permission.

Yep, that's the case and it was like that with me as well.

FTTPoD will always show on the BT Wholesale Checker that it is available even if the property and postcode was part of an MDU.

This is why FTTPoD is pretty much impossible to get under MDUs. Because if the wayleave issue wasn't an obstacle, FTTPoD wouldn't be needed at all. Openreach FTTP will happen spontaneously with ease.

The fact that one would want to request FTTPoD in an MDU suggests that wayleave is already an obstacle and paying 10K won't make a difference until the management team grants wayleave.

A similar situation happened in my case where for years I wouldn't get wayleave for Hyperoptic, Openreach FTTP, etc. FTTP was on a plan, reverted and got upgraded to FTTC in October 2019 from a previous EO Line.

Now finally I have wayleave passed by my management company EastendHomes, but this time for CommunityFibre London altnet FTTP. They started installing 2 months ago in my building.

My suggestion for OP, is to wait. FTTP will surely come. I thought it will never happen for me, but it's finally happening. Spending 10K for FTTPoD even if it was possible would prove devastating when Openreach or another altnet FTTP comes and you'll feel money has been wasted.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

FTTPoD will always show on the BT Wholesale Checker that it is available even if the property and postcode was part of an MDU.

That is not true, and we have evidence from this thread to the contrary.

It's certainly possible that some MDUs have been wrongly marked as FTTPoD available in the database. "Wrongly", because Openreach say unequivocally in their documentation:

"Any orders received for MDUs or MOUs will be rejected."

See the document "FTTP on Demand product availability 19 April2021" downloadable from https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/fibre-...

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

This is why FTTPoD is pretty much impossible to get under MDUs.

No it's not. It's because Openreach chose to exclude MDUs from FTTPoD.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Because if the wayleave issue wasn't an obstacle, FTTPoD wouldn't be needed at all.

By that argument, FTTPoD wouldn't be needed at SDUs either.

FTTPoD is for people who want FTTP *now* (well, in a year or so), without having to wait for a normal FTTP rollout to reach their area, and are happy to pay for the privilege.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Spending 10K for FTTPoD even if it was possible would prove devastating when Openreach or another altnet FTTP comes and you'll feel money has been wasted.

That is certainly true.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

That is not true, and we have evidence from this thread to the contrary.

It's certainly possible that some MDUs have been wrongly marked as FTTPoD available in the database. "Wrongly", because Openreach say unequivocally in their documentation:

"Any orders received for MDUs or MOUs will be rejected."

See the document "FTTP on Demand product availability 19 April2021" downloadable from https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/fibre-...

I know it will be rejected. What I am saying is that checking here https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL Currently the checker is unavailable at the moment.

But if you have FTTC already, it will misleadingly show WBC FTTP Availability Date Available next to FTTP on Demand.
Like in my old screenshot shown here. It's like that even with the updated checker.
http://i.imgur.com/EXWQxfk.jpg

All the MDU buildings that I've checked here in central London that already have FTTC will show WBC FTTP Availability Date Available next to WBC FTTP on Demand even if we know that such service is impossible to order! That is what confuses so many people.

The checker is just superficially showing FTTPoD availability, even when it is not.

Only in ADSL EO Line without FTTC WBC FTTP on Demand will be absent from the checkers list. Currently the checker is not working, so I can't show you that.

But I can guarantee you that in every checker with FTTC available, it will wrongly show FTTP on Demand Available as well!! I have yet to see a screenshot or a post code where it will not show its availability when FTTC is available, prove me wrong!

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

This is why FTTPoD is pretty much impossible to get under MDUs.

No it's not. It's because Openreach chose to exclude MDUs from FTTPoD.

Yes, I know it's excluded. I'm saying theoretically, if it was possible and even if Openreach didn't exclude an MDU, it's highly likely that the customer will not be able to get the wayleave agreement granted individually for their flat only.

The property developer will argue the case, why they would grant wayleave for that customer only if they could do it for the entire building. It will be too much hassle for them to sign wayleave just for one flat separately for every single flat owner that requests FTTPoD.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

But I can guarantee you that in every checker with FTTC available, it will wrongly show FTTP on Demand Available as well!!

You could well be right. If so, it just means they haven't bothered to take MDU availability into account in the database. Similarly, many properties still show FTTPoD 330/50 even though it's really 1000/220 these days.

The guidance does ask service providers to check the property isn't an MDU or MOU before submitting an order. You have to engage with a service provider before ordering FTTPoD anyway.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

What I am saying is that checking here https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL Currently the checker is unavailable at the moment.

The checker is available and working. They have simply blocked your IP.

It will probably work on mobile data for you, unless that's also blocked.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 05-Jul-21 22:44:29)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

What I am saying is that checking here https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL Currently the checker is unavailable at the moment.

The checker is available and working. They have simply blocked your IP.

It will probably work on mobile data for you, unless that's also blocked.

Why would they block my IP?

It is working now again. It has been like that in the past. Sometimes the checker will not work for a few days and after that it will work again.

I think it is a technical issue. Because other people have reported the same issue in the past when it also coincided with my checker also not working. Next time I'll check from a mobile device when the checker is unavailable.

But anyway, this is what you see in the checker when you have FTTC.

Featured Products Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range (Mbps) Availability Date FTTP Install Process
FTTP on Demand 330 30 -- Available

And if you check a postcode with native FTTP, it shows only this.

Featured Products Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range (Mbps) Availability Date FTTP Install Process
WBC FTTP Up to 1000 Up to 220 -- Available KCI2 Assure

So from my observation FTTPoD is absent from ADSL and Openreach FTTP native in the checker but is present in all areas with FTTC.
It doesn't take into account if your postcode is part of an MDU or SDU. And this is how the OP got confused, like with many other people.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Why would they block my IP?

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/btsupplier/f/46544...

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

I'm saying theoretically, if it was possible and even if Openreach didn't exclude an MDU, it's highly likely that the customer will not be able to get the wayleave agreement granted individually for their flat only.

The property developer will argue the case, why they would grant wayleave for that customer only if they could do it for the entire building. It will be too much hassle for them to sign wayleave just for one flat separately for every single flat owner that requests FTTPoD.

Developers will typically want to strike an overarching deal with provider or an integrator. They are simply interested in the most expedient return on their investment and these post-COVID days especially, FTTP is a desirable and marketable feature on new builds. However they don't want two or three competing providers complicating matters, they just want the "one throat to choke".

Landlords (and property managers) on the other hand.....well they simply want an easy life! Resi property management is far from glamorous! The margins are usually thin and anything that distracts from simply turning the sausage handle is an irritation at best and downright avoidable hassle at worst, in their eyes. There is basically zero incentive to help. They ideally don't want *any* providers making their life hard(er).

Have a look at this interview with Graeme Oxby, CEO of Community Fibre dealing with the London MDU/flat/apartment market. Some interesting take aways...

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/09/commun...

Update.. ish.

My brother is trying to find out why the flats were not done.

Does anyone know who he could get in touch with to potentially find out why OR did not install FTTP to the flats?

MDU team can be contacted here

https://openreach.co.uk/fibreformybuilding