Fibre switchover but no mobile signal

Hi. Please excuse me if this has been posted elsewhere, I did a quick search and couldn't see it.

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal. Sky have said they will not replace copper with fibre broadband as that would cause the existing landline to be switched off and emergency calls to 999 would not be possible.

BT on the other hand are apparently threatening to do the switch regardless.

Are there rules about making sure 999 calls can be made after a switch to full fibre supply?

Thanks for your time

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Sky have said they will not replace copper with fibre broadband as that would cause the existing landline to be switched off and emergency calls to 999 would not be possible.

You don't need a physical landline (copper) or even fibre to call 999, but you do need some sort of connection to the internet to allow access to a VoIP service provider.

I think you're not being told the full story.

I think you might be confusing a few things.

Firstly, the PSTN - the analogue voice network - is being turned off across the whole country. It's happening in some places now, will be rolled out nationally in 2023 and be complete by 2025. There's no negotiation over this.

However, that does not involve removing the copper network. Instead, voice will be delivered digitally, as VOIP over broadband. The broadband may still be FTTC or ADSL, until such time as fibre is available to you. Any pure "phone lines" will be converted to broadband connections with a very low data speed (e.g. 0.5Mbps).

Secondly: 999 calls *can* be made over digital voice. However, you will be dependent on having power to your router for them to work - and also your ONT, if on fibre.

If you are a "vulnerable" customer then your ISP will be required to provide you with a UPS backup power supply, which will be able to power the router for several hours. Otherwise, it will be up to you to provide this backup yourself, if 100% availability of 999 calls is important to you.

Given that there's no mobile signal, maybe a few people in the village can get such protection, and then offer use of their phones in emergency if there's a power cut.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Hi. Please excuse me if this has been posted elsewhere, I did a quick search and couldn't see it.

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal. Sky have said they will not replace copper with fibre broadband as that would cause the existing landline to be switched off and emergency calls to 999 would not be possible.

BT on the other hand are apparently threatening to do the switch regardless.

Are there rules about making sure 999 calls can be made after a switch to full fibre supply?

Thanks for your time

This point has been considered a number of times on this Forum. While it is a significant problem for those without a mobile signal it is probably not a matter high on the list of priorities for the great majority of forum users who are used to full and ongoing mobile access. I expect their views might change in the event of a significant power outage which took their mobile mast off-line as well.

While you will be able to make 999 calls through the fibre connection this only works while you have power for the ONT. The OfCOM guidance from 2018 is on-line here and has not been significantly altered since then as far as I am aware. This proposes that telecom providers should provide systems to users in areas without other access to the emergency services which will provide the ability to contact the emergency services for at least one hour after a power outage begins. I believe that this is based on the information from the electricity suppliers that the average outage lasts 45 minutes. As ever you can prove what you like by selective use of statistics. This average time will include outages in urban areas where there is often redundancy in the network and routings can be switched to re-energise the supply (and funnily enough this also covers the areas where there is usually adequate mobile coverage). It is not a lot of help to those living in rural areas where the average outage is several hours while the single power line supplying an area is restored after it has been brought down by something like bad weather.

We are certainly concerned in our village as we have had at least one close shave where an ambulance had to called for a potentially life-threatening situation about 10 minutes before a 12-hour power outage hit us.

If there is any ray of light, Virgin have proposed that they will supply their customers in this situation with back-up that will give twenty four hours of stand-by coverage and one hour of talk time.

Perhaps you should start trying to raise awareness of the dangers in the proposals with your county council, MP, local media etc. as you are part of a minority who will be placed in situation where you would potentially have no access to the emergency services even if the full OfCOM guidance is followed by the telecoms providers.

Edited by GonePostal (Fri 20-Aug-21 10:43:23)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If you are a "vulnerable" customer then your ISP will be required to provide you with a UPS backup power supply, which will be able to power the router for several hours.

OfCOM guidance is one hour (on line here) caveated in para 3.49 with:

"We considered that one hour’s protection represented an appropriate minimum level of
protection to provide customers taking VoIP services in most cases. We recognised,
however, that some individual customers might require protection beyond one hour, for
example, because they lived in households with a history of long-duration power outages,
and that providers should take steps to ensure those customers were protected."

That could lead to some lucrative work for m'learned friends!

Edited by GonePostal (Fri 20-Aug-21 10:35:56)

This is very helpful thanks (and please excuse the ignorance).

So, if I understand properly then, if BT swap someone from copper to fibre, they presumably are obliged to provide a VoIP phone connection to enable emergency calls?

Very interesting to hear about the UPS obligation.

The easy solution for no mobile signal is to use a mobile network that supports wi-fi calling so all the calls and messages use your internet connection. I rarely make calls on the landline any more as I have unlimited minutes on my mobile. This of course means a UPS or other power source is needed in case of a power cut.

Edited by Realalemadrid (Fri 20-Aug-21 10:36:27)

Post deleted by GonePostal

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

The easy solution for no mobile signal is to use a mobile network that supports wi-fi calling so all the calls and messages use your internet connection. I rarely make calls on the landline any more as I have unlimited minutes on my mobile. This of course means a UPS or other power source is needed in case of a power cut.

As you suggest, this depends on your provider and what type of phone - and sometimes who purchased from.

I'm not too worried as personally I quite enjoy not having mobile signal, and there are plans for a nearby mast so all will be normal in a couple of years

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal.

None whatsoever? From any network, not just the one you use? A genuine Not Spot?

Someone can tell me I'm wrong but isn't it the case that if you have "no service" you can still make 112/999 calls by - in effect - roaming to another network.

And you can further tell me I'm wrong to assume there are very few villages - not actual rural areas with few homes - without some sort of mobile.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

As you suggest, this depends on your provider and what type of phone - and sometimes who purchased from.

I'm not too worried as personally I quite enjoy not having mobile signal, and there are plans for a nearby mast so all will be normal in a couple of years

Actually less so as time goes by. WiFi Calling has become a pretty standard feature now own many phones and plans. In a poor/non-existent mobile service area it really is a godsend (unless your prefer to be incommunicado most of the time 😎)

I agree that WiFi Calling really is the probably best/simplest/cheapest solution in an emergency calling situation where there is power down.

Other than compatible mobile phone and plan its a matter of ensuring you can stand up your internet connection in a power failure. A small UPS for the (ONT if fibre), router and WiFi (if separate to the router). There is is no need to worry enabling a further VoIP 'landline' - but you can if you want to - and that can take myriad combinations - either standard analog phone into an ATA device or into an analogue phone port from the main provider router, a soft phone app on your computer or smartphone, a combination of either.

When PSTN eventually switches off in a few years, no one should be marooned without a landline. Its good to get to know the options if you can, as there are numerous out there, not just what Sky or BT will want to sell you.

I too am fairly sure that 112/999 calls can be made irrespective of network.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal.

Any chance of a name or approx location so we can see this mobile black spot on maps ?

Sky have said they will not replace copper with fibre broadband as that would cause the existing landline to be switched off and emergency calls to 999 would not be possible.

Sky don't replace the wires in the ground, that would be Openreach. Unless Sky are confusing full fibre (FTTP) with fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) services with the word "fibre".

BT on the other hand are apparently threatening to do the switch regardless.

As others has posted, this is the retirement of the analogue telephone service (PSTN) not the removal of the copper in the ground. It is also Openreach that run the PSTN.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

And you can further tell me I'm wrong to assume there are very few villages - not actual rural areas with few homes - without some sort of mobile.

No doubt you are right but that is no comfort to those of us who live in villages where there are areas with no network coverage at all.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Any chance of a name or approx location so we can see this mobile black spot on maps ?

I could give you my exact location and you could then check the coverage maps to see that Three are the only operator owning up to not providing a signal. I could then ask you to visit us and you could walk out of our house and not receive a signal from any of the networks. The coverage maps authorised by OfCOM are based on the data provided by the network operators who obviously have a vested interest in taking an optimistic view of the coverage they offer.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

And you can further tell me I'm wrong to assume there are very few villages - not actual rural areas with few homes - without some sort of mobile.

No doubt you are right but that is no comfort to those of us who live in villages where there are areas with no network coverage at all.

So these people never leave their houses then ??

In reply to a post by MHC:

I too am fairly sure that 112/999 calls can be made irrespective of network.

As long as you are within the coverage of one of the network providers.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So these people never leave their houses then ??

Does miss the scenario where someone has a fall in the house and needs to summon assistance.

The 999 problem (particularly in the event of a power cut) will only affect a very small proportion of the population so to most people it is an irrelevance to their normal lives, but it would be good if any solution could benefit everyone rather than hanging some parts of the population out to dry,

Edited by GonePostal (Fri 20-Aug-21 13:04:35)

Then they push their Tunstall alarm fob, connected to a telephone line being generated by some internet based VOIP service , this equipment being run via a UPS system.

Some providers will provide them if the customers needs it.

Your scenario relies on handsets all over the property, because it is difficult to plan where in the home you will have said fall.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal.

None whatsoever? From any network, not just the one you use? A genuine Not Spot?

Someone can tell me I'm wrong but isn't it the case that if you have "no service" you can still make 112/999 calls by - in effect - roaming to another network.

And you can further tell me I'm wrong to assume there are very few villages - not actual rural areas with few homes - without some sort of mobile.

Nope, none whatsoever apart from hanging around outside the houses of a few that have specific wifi connectors for their own providers (EE, Voda) - so piggybacking 999 calls on other networks isnt an option.

That said, there is a concerted effort to get masts installed in our area (Exmoor) for use by the emergency services.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Then they push their Tunstall alarm fob, connected to a telephone line being generated by some internet based VOIP service , this equipment being run via a UPS system.

Some providers will provide them if the customers needs it.

Your scenario relies on handsets all over the property, because it is difficult to plan where in the home you will have said fall.

Before having a alarm fob my mother managed to crawl to the telephone on a couple of occasions, she couldn't get out the house, this is not that unusual, recently a nabour (in his 30!) took three hours to get to the phone. I know there are solutions to problems like this, but for far to many these solutions are not enacted until they have had their first incidence.
In our case I leave my mobile on the window cill, sometimes I get a signal, sometimes not, yet every checker says I can get a indoor signal.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal.

Any chance of a name or approx location so we can see this mobile black spot on maps ?

Sky have said they will not replace copper with fibre broadband as that would cause the existing landline to be switched off and emergency calls to 999 would not be possible.

Sky don't replace the wires in the ground, that would be Openreach. Unless Sky are confusing full fibre (FTTP) with fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) services with the word "fibre".

BT on the other hand are apparently threatening to do the switch regardless.

As others has posted, this is the retirement of the analogue telephone service (PSTN) not the removal of the copper in the ground. It is also Openreach that run the PSTN.

Location is Winsford on Exmoor. Sorry, didnt make myself clear re Sky - I understand that if you get one of their fibre offerings they disconnect the PSTN in your house, which they wont do if there is no mobile signal. I actually have fibre coiled up outside by the front door left by Openreach last year.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Our village currently has no mobile phone signal.

Any chance of a name or approx location so we can see this mobile black spot on maps ?

Sky have said they will not replace copper with fibre broadband as that would cause the existing landline to be switched off and emergency calls to 999 would not be possible.

Sky don't replace the wires in the ground, that would be Openreach. Unless Sky are confusing full fibre (FTTP) with fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) services with the word "fibre".

BT on the other hand are apparently threatening to do the switch regardless.

As others has posted, this is the retirement of the analogue telephone service (PSTN) not the removal of the copper in the ground. It is also Openreach that run the PSTN.

Location is Winsford on Exmoor. Sorry, didnt make myself clear re Sky - I understand that if you get one of their fibre offerings they disconnect the PSTN in your house, which they wont do if there is no mobile signal. I actually have fibre coiled up outside by the front door left by Openreach last year.

You could activate a new FTTP service, just data only don't order a new number. Once it is up and running, port the existing 'landline' number to an (independent) VoIP provider, which then cancels off the Sky service on copper as part of the porting process.

Get yourself a decent wireless DECT phone base with built in VoIP account capability (e.g. Gigaset N300IP or N300A IP cheap around £50). Bingo you now have a cordless phone solution together with a 'landline'. You could even load good soft phone client on your smart phone (like Acrobits Groundwire) and 'take' your landline wherever you go.

Add UPS to ONT/router/DECT base for phone use in a power fail.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

The coverage maps authorised by OfCOM are based on the data provided by the network operators who obviously have a vested interest in taking an optimistic view of the coverage they offer.

But RootMetrics and their competitors do actual drive testing to compare with the Ofcom & Network maps. Those should show the gap.

Of course it could be that planning permisson has been denied to the networks to solve the problem, which is normally the case.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

specific wifi connectors for their own providers (EE, Voda)

Voda's SureSignal service shuts off imminantly. The other networks are gradually removing these Femtocell boxes now that WiFi calling is very well supported by handsets.

That said, there is a concerted effort to get masts installed in our area (Exmoor) for use by the emergency services.

This project is sponsored by the Home Office.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Location is Winsford on Exmoor. Sorry, didnt make myself clear re Sky - I understand that if you get one of their fibre offerings they disconnect the PSTN in your house, which they wont do if there is no mobile signal. I actually have fibre coiled up outside by the front door left by Openreach last year.

Interesting you have physical fibre outside.

Sky are ahead of the transition, but any provider will have to move to a digital voice service when Openreach turn off the analogue PSTN service. It doesn't matter if you take Sky's FTTC or FTTP or even ADSL products, Sky will have to provide the phone service through the WiFi box.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Then they push their Tunstall alarm fob, connected to a telephone line being generated by some internet based VOIP service , this equipment being run via a UPS system.

Some providers will provide them if the customers needs it.

Your scenario relies on handsets all over the property, because it is difficult to plan where in the home you will have said fall.

While I understand that you are trying to minimise the problem and its effects, I don't think that you are helping in any way the small handful of people living in mobile free zones (which are often the same places as areas prone to lengthy power cuts) who could well have real problems when the copper is turned off if the OfCOM recommendations are adopted. Surely the sensible thing to do would be to try and address those issues before the event rather than wait until someone suffers adverse consequences before agreeing that there might be a problem. Something like the Virgin proposal of twenty-four hour standby time, one hour talk time would be a good start but it would require all of the providers to adopt a similar stance.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Interesting you have physical fibre outside.

Sky are ahead of the transition, but any provider will have to move to a digital voice service when Openreach turn off the analogue PSTN service. It doesn't matter if you take Sky's FTTC or FTTP or even ADSL products, Sky will have to provide the phone service through the WiFi box.

I'm certainly not wedded to Sky, currently use Plusnet who dont have a Fibre offering at present so I was just enquiring with Sky. Just wonder why their Ts&Cs say they wouldn't install it in an area without mobile coverage - " Not available to customers without a mobile signal at home or reliant on their landline for emergency services." in that case.

Openreach dug up the street a few months back, suspect its to do with increasing rural coverage, and everyone down our street have these coils of fibre.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

The coverage maps authorised by OfCOM are based on the data provided by the network operators who obviously have a vested interest in taking an optimistic view of the coverage they offer.

But RootMetrics and their competitors do actual drive testing to compare with the Ofcom & Network maps. Those should show the gap.

Of course it could be that planning permisson has been denied to the networks to solve the problem, which is normally the case.

Unfortunately the system seems to have failed in regard to our location, then.

Parish Council, Community Trust, County Council and MP have been lobbying OfCOM and the network operators for many years now. OfCOM have made no changes to the data recorded on their coverage maps despite repeated requests; the network operators have always responded that the investment in a new mast cannot be justified as there is not enough demand. With several hundred thousand visitors (yes you read that correctly) each year to our village the underlying reason may be that there is demand but no additional income for the operators as most people are on unlimited calls so no extra revenue if they make a call here rather than two miles down the road.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Just wonder why their Ts&Cs say they wouldn't install it in an area without mobile coverage - " Not available to customers without a mobile signal at home or reliant on their landline for emergency services." in that case.

Without delving into it, that reads to me like Sky don't want to have to provide (pick up the tab or indeed have the legal burden) for the additional UPS backup necessary for vulnerable customers etc to be able to use their "landline" when there is a power failure.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Add UPS to ONT/router/DECT base for phone use in a power fail.

Last year I was looking into this, couldn't seem to find 'details' of a suitable unit. i.e. the more expensive units designed to run a computor gave the Ah capacity, and these where way over top for a couple of hours use for ONT/router/phone, cheaper units which might well have been sufficient just gave how many minutes they would run a computor, they where designed to allow the computor to be shut down, and no indication of actual Ah and if this was suitable for longer low power usage. I gave up in end as I took a combined copper/fibre service, but will be looking into this again when contract comes up and we go VOIP.

In reply to a post by stevepickard:

Location is Winsford on Exmoor. Sorry, didnt make myself clear re Sky - I understand that if you get one of their fibre offerings they disconnect the PSTN in your house, which they wont do if there is no mobile signal.

Not exactly. Sky replace the analogue PSTN voice connection with a digital voice connection via their router. That is: as a Sky customer, you plug your existing handset (and extension wiring, if any) into a port on the router. It certainly can handle emergency calls: they're required to do so.

If they're are refusing to migrate you now then that's their decision (probably to save money by not having to provide you with a UPS). However by 2025 *all* landline voice services will be delivered this way, so they're only delaying the inevitable by a few years.

At that point, whether you have copper, or real fibre (FTTP), or hybrid fibre (FTTC), won't make any difference: it'll be VOIP in any case.

Looks like its standard Sky T&C's for Sky Broadband Ultrafast and Ultrafast Plus:

https://www.sky.com/broadband#Legals-BB

As you say, seems incredibly shortsighted, given what's two years away. Then again perhaps their lawyers insisted to minimise liabilities, until they have an "oven-ready" (I plan to milk that bloody phrase) UPS solution ready to go.

Kick that can down the road Sky!

Edited by Pheasant (Fri 20-Aug-21 19:22:53)

Many thanks for all the comments, most helpful and this is a very useful forum even for techo-ignorant.