FTTPoD changes including near network commercial trial

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/11/openre...

FTTPoD no longer requires a line be connected to an FTTC enabled cabinet.
This was never a technological requirement but simply an easy/crude way to only allow orders from those within reach of an existing Aggregation Node.

The near network commercial trial seems much more interesting. It gives a fixed price for those very close to an existing FTTP deployment.

For eligible orders, the FOD build charge under the trial will now be set as follows:

£1,625 where a splitter exists, but a connectorised block terminal (CBT) needs to be built (the CBT usually goes on top of a telegraph pole or in an underground chamber near-ish to your home/office)

£2,650 where a new splitter build is required, as well as the CBT build

Previously FTTPoD quotes tended to come in at the full build cost even if the network was very very close.
It's a large reduction for those cases but still (imo) expensive to build a splitter and/or CBT.

There are some specific requirements and exclusions from the near network trial.

Head end capacity and spine capacity exists.

Distance from either the planned NGA aggregation node or an existing FTTP splitter to the target FOD end customer premises is 500m or less.

Exclusions:

Multi-Dwelling Unit, Multi-Occupancy Unit and FOD ‘cluster’ orders.

Orders requiring civils work or presenting DIG (direct in ground) infrastructure.

Orders requiring significant internal work as part of the ONT installation (e.g. greater than 30m reach internal wiring) will not qualify for the trial.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 01-Nov-21 21:50:36)

Note that the trial doesn't start until December 1st 2021, and runs for 6 months.

It will be interesting to see, for requests submitted after that date, any desktop survey and/or final quote which reflects these fixed values.

It says on the article that the desktop survey will remain the same and it is only once the one the ground survey is conducted will eligibility be determined. So some people will have a nice surprise post paying the survey cost.

Have Wholesale announced they’re taking part in the trial yet? Might be too early doors.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Note that the trial doesn't start until December 1st 2021, and runs for 6 months.

It will be interesting to see, for requests submitted after that date, any desktop survey and/or final quote which reflects these fixed values.

There’s an update this morning over at ISPreview…

“We’ve got a few extra details back from Openreach. Firstly, the coverage expansion for FoD will take effect from 19th March 2022, so it’s not immediate.“

I lost interest in FoD when the prices went up. I'm interested again at £1600 ish so remind me...

Do you need to cough up the £500 survey first or is there a 'free' estimate?

or

If free and it comes in at 'probably' £1600, then I need to pay the £500 to confirm?

And in any case the £500 is part of the total fee. £500 now for survey, another £1100 on acceptance?

I can't tell from the OR price list as I don't know the usual wholesale prices so is there a different - more expensive! - monthly rental? What's the Gigabit rental per month for the end punter?

And how am I going to find out which CPs will be taking part in the trial?

As it’s only just been announced by OR, I don’t think the dust has quite settled yet.

I’m not aware that BTW are offering this (yet ) - so the usual CPs like Cerberus that use BTW for FoD won’t be offering it immediately.

I guess watch the press etc for updates in the coming weeks/months.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Note that the trial doesn't start until December 1st 2021, and runs for 6 months.

It will be interesting to see, for requests submitted after that date, any desktop survey and/or final quote which reflects these fixed values.

There’s an update this morning over at ISPreview…

“We’ve got a few extra details back from Openreach. Firstly, the coverage expansion for FoD will take effect from 19th March 2022, so it’s not immediate.“

That's the *coverage* expansion (i.e. FoD becoming available at properties which are not currently within FTTC footprint).

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I lost interest in FoD when the prices went up. I'm interested again at £1600 ish so remind me...

Do you need to cough up the £500 survey first or is there a 'free' estimate?

There is a free estimate - which is almost always completely wrong. You have to pay a non-refundable £250+VAT=£300 to progress the order to the point of survey and confirmed price.

(I don't know where you got the £500 figure from, it has never been that).

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

or

If free and it comes in at 'probably' £1600, then I need to pay the £500 to confirm?

And in any case the £500 is part of the total fee. £500 now for survey, another £1100 on acceptance?

Technically the £250+VAT is not a survey fee - you place the order for FoD, and if you decide to drop out of the order when you see the confirmed pricing, this is what you pay to cancel the order.

In practice you'll almost certainly have to pay the £250+VAT up-front, but then it is deducted from the final price.

From the time of the final price being provided, you have 30 days to accept it and pay the remaining balance. Otherwise the order lapses and you lose the £250+VAT.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I can't tell from the OR price list as I don't know the usual wholesale prices so is there a different - more expensive! - monthly rental? What's the Gigabit rental per month for the end punter?

The monthly rental is whatever your CP charges. The main provider of FoD is Cerberus and you can find their pricing here: https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

For gigabit it's a rather expensive £120+VAT = £150 per month, but that's for 12 months only. After that you can either recontract with Cerberus for £60+VAT per month, or you can cease and take regular FTTP service from any CP.

Personally I'd suggest taking a slower 300/50 (but still fast enough for almost household) at £80+VAT for the first year, and then regrade at the end.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

And how am I going to find out which CPs will be taking part in the trial?

That's the hard part. Hardly any CPs provide Fibre on Demand, and Cerberus don't deal directly with Openreach, they go via BT Wholesale. Hopefully this will become clearer in December.

There is a small list of FoD CPs here: https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fttp-provi...

But I know that Amvia is just a reseller of Cerberus, and some of the others do not have national coverage.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I lost interest in FoD when the prices went up. I'm interested again at £1600 ish so remind me...

Do you need to cough up the £500 survey first or is there a 'free' estimate?

or

If free and it comes in at 'probably' £1600, then I need to pay the £500 to confirm?

The was a later update to the article answering that.

Openreach also confirmed that the “desktop quotations will not provide confirmation that a site is eligible for the fixed charge, this will only be determined by a full site survey.”

As above it's £250+vat for the survey which is only payable of you don't proceed with the order.

The FTTPoD Near Network Trial starts on 01/12/21 for 6 months and ends 31/05/22.

The FTTPoD availability expansion starts on 19/03/22

Any orders on the fixed price/near network trial don't qualify for the usual exception per PON/premises passed discounts.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 02-Nov-21 16:29:03)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Note that the trial doesn't start until December 1st 2021, and runs for 6 months.

It will be interesting to see, for requests submitted after that date, any desktop survey and/or final quote which reflects these fixed values.

There’s an update this morning over at ISPreview…

“We’ve got a few extra details back from Openreach. Firstly, the coverage expansion for FoD will take effect from 19th March 2022, so it’s not immediate.“

That's the *coverage* expansion (i.e. FoD becoming available at properties which are not currently within FTTC footprint).

Yes. There was no commencement date in the original article on the coverage expansion element, only the cost changes, hence the update.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

(I don't know where you got the £500 figure from, it has never been that).

Ever the pessimist...

The monthly rental is whatever your CP charges. The main provider of FoD is Cerberus and you can find their pricing here: https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

For gigabit it's a rather expensive £120+VAT = £150 per month, but that's for 12 months only. After that you can either recontract with Cerberus for £60+VAT per month, or you can cease and take regular FTTP service from any CP.

But the optimist in me thought this was a whole new FoD system. I could have fibre just by paying a more realistic installation charge, then its normal FTTP pricing. But no. I guess the justification for charging higher monthly fees is 'because we can'.

I'll do the maths but it sound like its going to be fairly expensive. Surprised its a 12 month contract The OR price list I say seemed to say FoD rental was on a 36 month term. In any case I'd have to move ISP/CP and I like my current on (and my block of fixed IPs).

That'll teach me for being optimistic.

I wouldn't bother to pay £1,600 to openreach for FTTPoD. What the point? Cos they will roll out FTTP for free anyway.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

But the optimist in me thought this was a whole new FoD system. I could have fibre just by paying a more realistic installation charge, then its normal FTTP pricing. But no. I guess the justification for charging higher monthly fees is 'because we can'.

Openreach don't charge any more for FTTPoD monthly pricing than regular FTTP - wholesale pricelist.

Cerberus do, as a way of recouping their costs of managing the FTTPoD delivery. In my case it took nearly 18 months start to finish, with weekly updates and many cases of issues having to be escalated back to BTW/Openreach - they more than earned that money. Without this, FTTPoD would be a huge loss-leader for them - especially for users who migrate away from Cerberus after 12 months.

Previously it was a flat £35 per month on top of their standard FTTP pricing for 12 months. However they've now changed it, so for example there's a £40 premium for 300/50 but a £60 premium for 900/110. That's a bit unfair, but anyone who thinks they need 900M almost certainly doesn't - so they collect a luxury tax.

If you think Cerberus pricing is high, try asking Fluid One for a quote - it was double Cerberus when I tried in 2017.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I'll do the maths but it sound like its going to be fairly expensive. Surprised its a 12 month contract The OR price list I say seemed to say FoD rental was on a 36 month term.

You must be looking at pre-March 2018 prices - the current price list still shows historic prices and terms, but if you look carefully these say "Withdrawn from new supply" as of Feb 2018.

It was priced completely differently back then. Openreach charged a fixed fee by distance band but *also* charged a higher monthly rental for 36 months, effectively hiding a bunch of the up-front cost in that rental. If I remember correctly, the retail price from Cerberus was £165+VAT per month (for 300/30, which was the only level available), on a 3 year contract. Of that, £99+VAT was the Openreach wholesale price.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I wouldn't bother to pay £1,600 to openreach for FTTPoD. What the point? Cos they will roll out FTTP for free anyway.

I'm not surprised you say that, since you already have G.Fast available (or at least, have claimed in the past that you do). For someone else who has only 4Mbps on ADSL, their calculation may be different.

However I agree with the general point. I suspect that FTTPoD orders have now fallen off a cliff given the high costs quoted (typically £8K+VAT) and the expectation of a low return on investment with native FTTP likely to follow soon afterwards. Hence this new offer may be a way of breathing some life back into FTTPoD for the "easy" installs, where the premise is close to an existing splitter or aggregation node. Paying £1600 to get full fibre 2 years early is not unreasonable.

Of course, if they were simply to quote realistic prices for easy installs in the first place, this new offer wouldn't be required.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I wouldn't bother to pay £1,600 to openreach for FTTPoD. What the point? Cos they will roll out FTTP for free anyway.

It’s like buying anything, people are prepared (up to a point) to pay more for something and have it now, rather than wait to have it in 2, 3 or 5 years time. Post pandemic work and life habits have changed peoples attitudes, especially if they are more reliant on a ‘utility’ as connectivity has become in our modern world.

I heard horror stories of FTTPoD installation take ages waiting for over a year or delaying it etc. I wouldn't bother with all these hassles!

Edited by adslmax (Wed 03-Nov-21 10:14:24)

Both candlerb and I have the scars. 🤣

lol

I think we're both very pleased that we placed our orders in 2018 and got our service in 2019.

There's still no sign of where I live in any published OR FTTP plans, although nearby large towns are. I think it's quite likely I'll get 5-6 years benefit from it.

To be honest I ain't bother. FTTC are more than enough for everyones in UK. Why need faster speed? I know I am on G.fast but will downgraded to FTTC 40/10 next year because I will be on my own. Don't need faster speed anymore as it getting bored now for me.

You forget three things:
1. Not everybody is in FTTC footprint.
2. Not everybody who is in FTTC footprint can get even 40/10 speeds.
3. Not everybody uses the Internet for the same purposes that you do.

Therefore, it's fine to say "FTTC is more than enough for adslmax". It's not fine to say "FTTC are [sic] more than enough for everyones [sic] in UK"

Having just switched to 500/75 FTTP from FTTC (got full 80/20) it is a huge improvement and makes me so much more productive. Of course there will always be people who only need slower connections. But families of 4 with people also often working from home a few days FTTP is hugely beneficial.