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Just out of interest, why are Openreach currently building a product as part of the nationwide gigabit rollout, where the end user can only purchase up to a 900mb package?
They may be missing something here, unless 900mb counts as a gigabit connection
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It does.
One gigabit on ethernet is a rate of 1,000,000,000 bits per second. However when you're measuring with a speedtest, it counts only the payload of individual packets, not the TCP/IP or ethernet headers. You'll see a maximum result of 942 Mbps, even though the link itself is a gigabit - that's 942 Mbps of "useful" data and the rest as overhead.
For simplicity, most ISPs refer to this as a "900M" service. It's better to have happy customers who buy a 900M service and get more, than to have unhappy customers who buy a 1000M service and think they are receiving less than they paid for.
EDIT: Openreach themselves refer to the raw bitrate, so in their price list they refer to the product as "up to 1000M/115M" (down/up).
(There's also a 1000M/220M FTTP product, but it's extremely expensive and as a result hardly any ISP sells it)
Edited by candlerb (Tue 02-Nov-21 18:46:36)
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I see what you are saying, but by that logic the ISP's should be selling a 942 mb product to use the raw 1 gig bitrate
900mb would be slightly less than 1gb of raw data.
Therefore they are not selling a gigabit product.
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I see what you are saying, but by that logic the ISP's should be selling a 942 mb product to use the raw 1 gig bitrate
900mb would be slightly less than 1gb of raw data.
Therefore they are not selling a gigabit product.
Because retail ISPs can't sell a product at a speed unless 90% of customers can achieve it, thanks to Ofcom rules. This means no isp currently has a "Gigabit" product by your definition, except those using XS-GPON and providing 10G links. Even Vermin Media, who rate limit their product to 1140mbit or so, only expose a gigabit port for it (unless you have the very very new hub 5).
Given that some customers will have [censored] old pcs that won't cope with 940mbps, you they won't be able to sell it as a "1000mbps" product.
This is also why ISPs these days sell 76mbit FTTC not 80mbit.
Edited by nemeth782 (Wed 03-Nov-21 00:00:54)
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Post deleted by adslmax
Edited by adslmax (Wed 03-Nov-21 00:55:47)
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The IP Profile is also involved too. That will reduced speed! My brother is on FTTP 1000/115 but he get 900 download. Never gigabit fibre.
The same with G.fast eg:
330/50 you only get 315/49
160/30 you only get 145/29
Edited by adslmax (Wed 03-Nov-21 00:58:13)
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I think BT have been smart in their approach with 900 tier.
If it was a gig - you would have been getting people complain about 940meg (around the max gigabit Ethernet does).
Ive worked for many ISPs and a lot of people are very picky over speeds and what they should and do get.
Edited by BuckleZ (Wed 03-Nov-21 01:06:01)
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The IP Profile is also involved too. That will reduced speed! My brother is on FTTP 1000/115 but he get 900 download.
*Exactly* 900Mbps? Or 902Mbps? Or 940Mbps? Tested using what speedtest server? If it's on TBB then you can share the link.
However if they are being limited by an IP Profile on the BRAS, this will be by the ISP (e.g. BT) not by Openreach, since Openreach only provides a layer 2 service - i.e. it's not Openreach's BRAS. So they could switch to another ISP if they want the extra 42Mbps.
This is of course all nonsense. People don't notice the difference between 900M and 940M in day-to-day usage - only when they look at speedtest results.
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For the moment service is limited to 900/1000mbits but satellite/cable/fixed wireless and of course fibre can all go beyond a gigabit in speed
Fibre alone is basically limitless (only limited by the electronics conversion from light ).
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So in summary from the replies above, you cannot currently get gigabit broadband via FTTP
However even thinkbroadband are posting news stories such as:
''confirms investment of £1.2 billion (from 2021-22 to 2024-25) of the £5 billion Project Gigabit commitment to level up all parts of the UK with a target of 85% high-quality, gigabit capable broadband coverage by 2025''
Project gigabit does not currently exist with the products available to consumers. It is 'project 900mb or so'
I just thought it was ironic they are spending billions of £'s and they dont have the basics correct.
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Edited by Ripley (Wed 03-Nov-21 11:34:53)
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So in summary from the replies above, you cannot currently get gigabit broadband via FTTP
You are the one who doesn't have the basics correct.
Gigabit services, which deliver a billion bits per second into your home, show as "942Mbps" on speedtest sites like speedtest.net. That's because of the way those sites measure the speed: they only count the payload portion, not the full packet with headers.
| Text | 1
23
4 | [ ethernet header [ IP header [ TCP header [ TCP segment data ] ] ] ]
<----------------------------> speedtest application only
counts this part |
This doesn't make them "not gigabit", because they do actually deliver a gigabit in total. It's just an artefact of how packet networks operate: not every bit carries user data, a small proportion is overhead for traffic routing.
However because many end-users are not technically savvy enough to understand this, many ISPs market such services as "900M".
Of course, few households actually *need* or are even capable of making use of a gigabit anyway. "Gigabit" here is really an alias for "fibre", which is about having more reliable connections and guaranteed consistent speeds (fibre does not use rate adaptation like xDSL, whose speed depends on the length and quality of the copper cable)
It is also partly about future-proofing. The fibre itself is capable of delivering 10Gbps, 25Gbps or more: once the fibre is in the ground, only the equipment at each end needs changing for any future higher speeds.
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It is gigabit, the underlying access network operates at above-gigabit speeds and the handoff to the customer is a gigabit port.
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Canlerb I think you miss understand my point.
And that's a bit of a cop out to say gigabit is just an alias for fibre.
Everybody else above has claimed contrary to you, that they cant deliver gigabit. Obviously you think otherwise.
I haven't seen a 942 mb product on the market yet...
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with no gigabit product available
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Canlerb I think you miss understand my point.
And that's a bit of a cop out to say gigabit is just an alias for fibre.
Everybody else above has claimed contrary to you, that they cant deliver gigabit. Obviously you think otherwise.
I haven't seen a 942 mb product on the market yet...
The product delivered is Gigabit capable. The technology used to convert the optical signal to a signal usable by the user's equipment takes that Gigabit stream and passes it on from the connection at the end user's location to the equipment in use, this process of passing on incurring some transactional costs so the Gigabit delivered to the user becomes less than a Gigabit when the user measures what is being received at his/her equipment. That does not detract from the point that a Gigabit service is being delivered to the equipment at the end of the fibre.
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I haven't seen a 942 mb product on the market yet...
You need to look again.
Virgin for starters over provision all their services. Their gigabit package is over 1130Mb/s. It's available to over half of the UK or will be by the end of 2022.
Your arguement is a bit ridiculous though.
Basically every single Gigabit Ethernet NIC on every PC/Router/switch on the planet isn't a gigabit using your logic.
You haven't seen a 942Mb/s product because OFCOM rules dictate that providers can only advertise a speed reachable by a certain % of users during peak times.
For that reason and to stop people who don't understand what overheads are from complaining they advertise the packages as 900Mb/s.
Even without overheads providers would still quote below the maximum throughput possible to follow the rules.
Even on that Virgin connection that's connected at 1130Mb/s the gigabit Ethernet port on their Hub will limit throughput to 942Mb/s.
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In the Nationwide Gigabit rollout I'd be more inclined to quibble about "Nationwide" than "Gigabit". 
John
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I never mentioned Virgin on my original post. it was specifically about the Openreach rollout.
Your understanding of my point is wrong. Regardless of Ofcom rules etc the underlying fact is you can only order a 900mb product and according to previous posts on this thread it would need to be a 942mb product to utilise the full 1gb connection.
The reasons behind it that you mention are all irrelevant to my initial thought.
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"to my initial thought."
The ability to think and the ability to understand are two different concepts.
Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10
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Regardless of Ofcom rules etc the underlying fact is you can only order a 900mb product and according to previous posts on this thread it would need to be a 942mb product to utilise the full 1gb connection.
M
Incorrect. It needs to be a gigabit to receive 942Mb/s not the other way around.
You aren't actually getting 900Mb/s from anyone. Nobody sells a product that connects at 900Mb/s.
It's simply averaged down for advertising purposes.
OpenReach send 1000Mb/s to your ONT.
Overheads, and the fact the ONT has a gigabit port, mean the maximum you will see is 942Mb/s.
The definition of gigabit is 1,000,000,000 bits. That's what OpenReach send.
It's very much a gigabit connection.
You're attempting to redefine the meaning of gigabit.
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I cant understand why this is so difficult for people to comprehend
If it was a full 1GB, after overheads the customer could receive 942mb, therefore the ISP could sell a 942mb product.
If they are selling a 900mb product, add the overheads on top of that you do not need a full 1gb to provide the service.
I am not redefining a GB.
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If it was a full 1GB, after overheads the customer could receive 942mb, therefore the ISP could sell a 942mb product.
They aren't allowed to advertise it as the absolute maximum theoretical speed someone can achieve with perfect conditions and zero congestion.
They must advertise what a % of users can achieve during peak times.
Yes they could indeed sell it as a 940Mb/s connection. That leaves zero room for flexibility and leaves the ISP skating on thin ice.
If they are selling a 900mb product, add the overheads on top of that you do not need a full 1gb to provide the service.
What exactly are you complaining about? The fact they provide higher than they advertise?
They sell it as they do to stop people who don't understand overheads from complaining that they don't receive speeds that aren't even possible.
It's a gigabit connection, sold as lower than that because of a combination of overheads, congestion and rules on advertising average speeds achieved.
I cant understand why this is so difficult for people to comprehend.
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Hi John,
When you say 'The fact they provide higher than they advertise?'
So it is the case that you could pay for the 900mb package and the end user could actually receive a higher throughput of say 940mb?
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Exactly that yes.
Anyone who orders 900Mb will connect at 1000Mb/s and can receive 942Mb/s.
It's technically gigabit, at exactly 1000Mb/s. It's only advertising rules that mean the provider sells it as 900Mb.
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My brother told me he order Full Fibre 900 with BT and his line stats was 1000/115 but throughput speed around 940/114
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My brother told me he order Full Fibre 900 with BT and his line stats was 1000/115 but throughput speed around 940/114
- "Full Fibre 900" is the BT Retail product description for the service.
- 1000/115 is the name of the wholesale Openreach GEA-FTTP product (speed tier) that is used to provide that particular service. It is not an indication of line stats and as pointed out already, at least from a downstream perspective, NOT an attainable *net* data throughput from the output of the ONT
- 940/114 sounds like the net data throughput from a Speedtest.
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Just out of interest, why are Openreach currently building a product as part of the nationwide gigabit rollout, where the end user can only purchase up to a 900mb package?
They may be missing something here, unless 900mb counts as a gigabit connection
As Openreach are a network builder and wholesale network service provider, they sell amongst other things broadband products to their customers, the ISPs/CPs , which you and I as and-users buy services from.
The GEA-FTTP network that Openreach are building nationally currently operates in excess of "Gigabit" in both downstream and upstream directions. Actually 2.488 Gbps in the downstream direction and 1.244 Gbps in the upstream direction.
Openreach publish product guides, called SINs (Suppler Information Notes). For GEA-FTTP the relevant note that describe the FTTP service is SIN 506. You can find it here.
Openreach have taken the decision to provide FTTP Products at up to a maximum of 1000/220 Mbps. Within the SIN - for the highest tiers 1000/220 and 1000/115 Openreach state as follows:
"The 1000M product provides a max Ethernet frame throughput of 987Mbps (excluding IFG and pre-amble). This is limited by the 1000BaseT interface and Ethernet framing overheads"
Basically as pointed in posts above, these are inherent limitations on the "net" data throughput of an Ethernet interface - which is the interface that is used to connect the customer.
Now Openreach could take the decision (admittedly unlikely) to provision higher download (and indeed upload) data rates on the current network. Other providers like CityFibre already do this effectively offering symmetric upload and download using the same GPON technology as the Openreach network. Indeed they could actually over-provision the download above 1 Gbps (like certain providers outside the UK) - however this would necessitate a different ONT which wouldn't be capped with a 1000BaseT customer connection.
The other matter to reflect on here is that the 'network' really is a passive network from the exchange to the user premises. This will undoubtedly remain for as long as the copper network has. It is entirely possible and probable, that at some point when it becomes commercially sensible that Openreach will "upgrade" this Gigabit-class network to become either a 10 Gbps, 25 Gbps or 50 Gbps (all current GPO=ON standards) network on the backbone - whilst simultaneously maintaining and running the original "Gigabit" connections to existing customers.
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Canlerb I think you miss understand my point.
And that's a bit of a cop out to say gigabit is just an alias for fibre.
Everybody else above has claimed contrary to you, that they cant deliver gigabit. Obviously you think otherwise.
I haven't seen a 942 mb product on the market yet...
Zzoomm has a 900Mb/s.
Adrian
Desktop machine Ryzen powered with windows 10 , reluctantly.
Plusnet FTTC
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I cant understand why this is so difficult for people to comprehend
If it was a full 1GB, after overheads the customer could receive 942mb, therefore the ISP could sell a 942mb product.
If they are selling a 900mb product, add the overheads on top of that you do not need a full 1gb to provide the service.
I am not redefining a GB.
As many, many others have pointed out there is no 900mbps product from Openreach. the 900mbps is an advertising rule, the products is still 1000mbps delivered to the customers ONT which equates to around 942mbps of "usable data"
My ISP is Vodafone and I pay for a "900mbps" products but speed tests reach around 920-940mbps so yes, almost all FTTP ISPs advertise 900 but deliver mode. The difference was even wider when i was on 500mbps product but used to receiver 570mbps
Don't believe me, here's the proof: https://www.speedtest.net/result/12280870147
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Ripley to be frank you are causing arguments over established conventions.
There will always be overheads in sending data, From RS232 days to nvme and tcp/ip. If you have a problem with how things are defined, please make your case to the various standards bodies.
Even with storing data, you have "padding" because you need to keep data integrity.
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