Installation standards

Are there any common standards between altnets, and indeed OR, for fibre installations?

I've got 2 altnets currently building in my viillage. It's not entirely clear, but I think they are overbuilding each other. I assume that eventually OR will build here too, though I'm not on their current published build plan. There doesn't seem to be much to choose between the altnets, so I'm thinking I'll probably go with the first one that offers service. If that turns out to be a bad choice, and I subsequently want to switch, would that mean ripping out the CSP, ONT, maybe fibre too and replacing it all?

Yes, there are standards for installing ducts - there is Openreach developer documentation which you can find easily online.

No, they never share fibre cables, CBTs or ONTs. Some altnets use Openreach's passive infrastructure (i.e. ducts and poles) but they'll always deploy their own cables within it.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

If that turns out to be a bad choice, and I subsequently want to switch, would that mean ripping out the CSP, ONT, maybe fibre too and replacing it all?

You won't "rip out" anything at all. But you will end up with a second fibre and a second ONT, possibly a second CSP depending on how the new provider works.

You can unpower the first ONT, but it stays - just like an Openreach master socket would stay if you took your broadband and phone from Virgin Media.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

You can unpower the first ONT, but it stays - just like an Openreach master socket would stay if you took your broadband and phone from Virgin Media.

Some people do rip out the VM or Openreach master sockets, not understanding these should remain part of the building. Caused chaos for a friend of mine on moving into a flat where no OR master socket could be found. A lot of investigation later found cut wires just outside the door. Crazy!!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

You can unpower the first ONT, but it stays - just like an Openreach master socket would stay if you took your broadband and phone from Virgin Media.

Some people do rip out the VM or Openreach master sockets, not understanding these should remain part of the building. Caused chaos for a friend of mine on moving into a flat where no OR master socket could be found. A lot of investigation later found cut wires just outside the door. Crazy!!

I had the similar issue with VM when I moved to my current address.
A previous owner had put slabs over where the cable point was.
Took 3 visits and an experienced engineer to resolve it.

Thanks
Dan

Mmm. Perhaps I should be a little more careful in choosing a provider, then. I don't want a wall littered with different boxes...

My plan is to cease my existing copper line once I have an FTTP connection up and working OK. I had kind of hoped that OR would remove the copper cable at that point, but from what you are saying that's unlikely? It's overhead from a pole. OR would presumably still be responsible for any damage it might cause? You might think they would want to remove that liability.

Is my assumption that eventually OR will build fibre everywhere correct? Reasoning is that even when fibre from altnets goes live here, not everyone will take it up. Some will decide they don't need the extra speed, or they don't trust an altnet they've never heard of before. They will stick with FTTC or ADSL, even after PSTN switch off. OR will want to get rid of all its copper sooner or later - that seems to be what the recent Equinox deal with CPs is about. I can't quote chapter and verse, but I imagine there's some Ofcom regulation that means they can't just pull the plug on folks who still have copper without providing some alternative, especially as the cohort is likely to contain older and vulnerable customers? Maybe it will be done on some kind of FTTPod basis, as if they don't get around to it before 2027 then I would think that most here who intend to convert to FTTP will have done so.

It's overhead from a pole. OR would presumably still be responsible for any damage it might cause? You might think they would want to remove that liability.

It might cause ??? More likely to remove it to stop it being damaged.

Your point earlier about expecting Openreach to roll out FTTP because others already are seems a little dubious. They are a private company, and will want to see return on any potential investment … which seems less likely to be made if there’s two Altnets plying their trade there already.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

Is my assumption that eventually OR will build fibre everywhere correct?

Most places but not everywhere.
Openreach won't be able to cover every address with FTTP. Some will simply be too remote/too expensive.
Public funding will help reach the majority but there will definitely be some left out.

I imagine there's some Ofcom regulation that means they can't just pull the plug on folks who still have copper without providing some alternative

Openreach won't leave an entire DSLAM or small exchange running for a single property that's been left out the fibre rollout.
There will be properties that will be left unable to obtain a service from Openreach once all the smaller exchanges are closed down.

Nobody will be left with no service. Alternatives will be offered, such as the Oneweb satellite service.
The UK government has taken a stake in the company and many in the industry expect that kind of service to play a role for the hardest to reach properties.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Your point earlier about expecting Openreach to roll out FTTP because others already are seems a little dubious. They are a private company, and will want to see return on any potential investment … which seems less likely to be made if there’s two Altnets plying their trade there already.

I see OR overbuilding as being in order to protect revenue. If there's an Alt Net and no OR, OR lose revenue. Choice of OR or Alt Net and most folk are likley to stay with a company they know and have heard of.

There's no OR FTTP down my street cos there's no Virgin or CityFibre. I bet as soon as there's a chance of either building, OR will be here PDQ.

Post deleted by Thaumaturge

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Your point earlier about expecting Openreach to roll out FTTP because others already are seems a little dubious.

Sorry, I can't quite see what I wrote that gives you that idea. I think the opposite: with 2 altnets building, there's no sign of extra OR vans in the area. Where I live we are not on OR's build plan before the end of 2026, and as I said, if they don't get around to us before 2027 at the earliest then most people who want FTTP will have switched to one of the altnets before then. As you say, there will be little incentive for OR to build when most of their customers have gone . It looks very much as if OR have abandoned us here regarding fibre, and I should think we are firmly at the back of OR's queue now.

I was wondering what would happen to the people who don't switch, and are still running ADSL or FTTC in 2031?

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

It looks very much as if OR have abandoned us here regarding fibre, and I should think we are firmly at the back of OR's queue now.

I did chuckle at your choice of wording, "abandoned" seems a bit heavy handed when you are talking about an ongoing rollout of full fibre.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

My plan is to cease my existing copper line once I have an FTTP connection up and working OK. I had kind of hoped that OR would remove the copper cable at that point, but from what you are saying that's unlikely? It's overhead from a pole.

Typically (but not always) they will replace an existing overhead copper cable with a "hybrid" cable which contains both copper and fibre. If it's underground fed through a duct, you'll have both copper and fibre cables.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

Is my assumption that eventually OR will build fibre everywhere correct?

That's the long-term aim, yes. By end of 2026, the expectation is that 80% of properties will have Openreach FTTP. However, getting to 99% or more will take considerably longer.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I imagine there's some Ofcom regulation that means they can't just pull the plug on folks who still have copper without providing some alternative, especially as the cohort is likely to contain older and vulnerable customers?

Removal of copper has a defined process. Roughly speaking, once an exchange area reaches 75% FTTP coverage, Openreach can start a "stop sell" on new copper connections to any property which has FTTP available. About a year later they can stop renewals of copper connections, and this will eventually force people onto FTTP - for those who can get it. But that doesn't mean they'll be ceasing copper services where FTTP is not available. They are likely to be in-filling for a long time.

In the long term, they'll have to do something about the last few remaining copper-only connections. (Note that by the end of 2025, this will be primary GEA FTTC - without voice from the telephone exchange. I am unclear as to when exactly exchange-based ADSL/MPF will be phased out)

In some areas Openreach may swallow the cost of upgrading to FTTP, perhaps with government handouts. In other areas they might move people onto something else like 4G/5G/6G. Over the next few years, the coverage of mobile networks to rural areas is going to improve substantially as the Shared Rural Network is rolled out.

At some point exchanged based xDSL will cease for same reasons the PSTN is being decommissioned soon. FTTC will still be with us in most places well into the next decade.
What I wonder about the altnets is their long term survivability. As long as they can get in before Openreach and the power of their numerous mainstream providers then they have a chance. Once OR move in then they look very vulnerable. Its got to be a certainty that many will not last out the decade, then what happens ? Could we see OFCOM/ government stepping in to keep their networks running until someone else buys them up or their customers are offloaded onto another network?

Edited by witchunt (Thu 09-Dec-21 20:32:11)

The closest historic parallel in this country was the consolidation of the cable networks a few decades ago.

History repeat?

The cable networks had hard duct and cable assets. In the wild west of the altnets, they have badly installed cables in someone elses duct that could end up being little more than a draw rope.

Edited by FibreBubble (Thu 09-Dec-21 20:58:16)

Have we reached peak bubble?

In reply to a post by dect:

I did chuckle at your choice of wording, "abandoned" seems a bit heavy handed when you are talking about an ongoing rollout of full fibre.

The comment was meant only with respect to OR. I understand that many don't have any prospect of FTTP at all yet.

I'll fess up - I don't want to go with an AltNet. AltNet land looks like the Wild West to me at present. Mark Jackson at ISPreview lists around 100 current companies here. For about half of them he notes their "ambitions". I added up the numbers quickly, comes to about 36.6M. That's only the ones with numbers quoted. Given that there are only 29M homes in the UK, and if we leave a few aside for OR and Virgin, you don't need to be Einstein to work out that some are going to be disappointed. The Equinox deal from OR isn't going to help. Many AltNets are going to go bust, and there is going to be massive "consolidation", as the finance people say, among the survivors. Quite what this shakedown will all mean for service and prices for ordinary punters is anyone's guess.

I'm an old man. I've been retired for 10 years. At my time of life I just want a peaceful, stable existence. Switching, having to bale yourself out of bankrupt companies, and continually looking for the best deals may be OK for you younger lads, but it's not for me. But then again, more or less anything has to be better than my present miserable FTTC line.

Why not take the positive view: if an Altnet comes along then enjoy the ride. The price will be cheap if they're trying to hoover up customers rapidly, and should they fail then someone else will take it over - or at very worst you'll be forced back to FTTC. You can't lose.

I'd say from personal experience that the current problems with electricity and gas supplier failures are being dealt with pretty well. Maybe you could have argued in the past that telecoms were less important than keeping your home warm, but that doesn't wash today now that people are being forced to work from home. And also, anyone who sweeps up the assets of a failed company is going to want to keep the customer base as well, which is probably worth more.

I've seen somewhere a photo of a new build that had a choice of full fibre/1Gig providers with their equipment under the stairs. literally had the ONT/modems for Virgin, Hyperoptic, Openreach FTTP and Gigaclear.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I'm an old man. I've been retired for 10 years. At my time of life I just want a peaceful, stable existence. Switching, having to bale yourself out of bankrupt companies, and continually looking for the best deals may be OK for you younger lads, but it's not for me.

I've been retired for quiet some time now myself, to be honest we do need the day to day challenges of life to keep the dementia away so an altnet might have hidden benefits for you

Edited by deleted (Sat 11-Dec-21 09:22:50)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Why not take the positive view: if an Altnet comes along then enjoy the ride. The price will be cheap if they're trying to hoover up customers rapidly, and should they fail then someone else will take it over - or at very worst you'll be forced back to FTTC. You can't lose.
...
And also, anyone who sweeps up the assets of a failed company is going to want to keep the customer base as well, which is probably worth more.

I agree - many altnets provide a technically competent service. Even if the companies are bought and sold, someone will likely always have an interest in using the installed plant to sell a service.

The main danger is consolidation in the market leading to a lack of choice. Openreach are likely to be prevented from buying off their competition, but the likes of VM could probably make a business case for buying out Community Fibre, Hyperoptic etc. with a view to preserving market share where overbuild has occurred.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I'd say from personal experience that the current problems with electricity and gas supplier failures are being dealt with pretty well.

Not quite the same - in the energy market there's a govt safety net administered by Ofgem which picks up the pieces for you, finds you another supplier, your credit is protected etc. The lights stay on, the gas keeps flowing. Agree there should be something in telecomms these days too, but there isn't.

But thanks everyone for the gung-ho comments. FTTP from whatever source is still vapourware here, and the marketing blitz hasn't started yet so it can't be imminent. I'll have to see what sort of introductory deals are on offer when the time comes.