Can't get anywhere need 900Mbps on Full-fibre FTTP with Zen

Hi,

I've recently had 900Mbps full-fibre service installed via Zen but I am struggling to achieve speeds like that, typically getting 300-450Mbps max on speedtests and never seeing anything higher. [Edit: I am connecting over Ethernet, not Wifi].

I am wondering if my equipment is part of the problem. I have a (relatively) old Draytek Vigor 2860 and a FritzBox 7530 which I got for my old FTTC 80Mbps Zen service. Both give the same results.

Can anyone confirm:

1. Is my router hardware likely to be the limiting factor or should one or both of these be capable of 900Mbps over PPPoE?

2. Should I get 900Mbps on a speedtest and if so, which speedtester should I be using and which target host?

3. Is there another way I can test the speed - e.g. via file download and, if so, any URL to the best service to try?

Zen want to send out an Openreach engineer to investigate but I am still trouble-shooting in case the problem is at my end. It would be really helpful to hear from anyone that has already achieved full speeds.

Many thanks,


Tom.

Edited by tomsedge99 (Wed 19-Jan-22 16:38:10)

how are you connecting to the routers, via ethernet or wireless ?

By ethernet only, no wifi

I have also noticed my Draytek is going over 90% CPU during a speedtest, which makes me suspect that this might be the bottleneck.

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

I have also noticed my Draytek is going over 90% CPU during a speedtest, which makes me suspect that this might be the bottleneck.

Hi In that case, you could connect your ethernet directly to the ONT removing the router entirely and test that way to see if speed increase. Since I don't have full fibre i'm not exactly sure on the technicals (cable customer) I'm know someone will pick this up and give you info in detail if needed,

Thanks, I will try that. I did have a go doing this with an old desktop, but it is very old so again, maybe it wasn't up to it. Will try with a modern desktop to see if that works.

I assume a modern computer will be able to do 900Mbps PPPoE?

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

Thanks, I will try that. I did have a go doing this with an old desktop, but it is very old so again, maybe it wasn't up to it. Will try with a modern desktop to see if that works.

I assume a modern computer will be able to do 900Mbps PPPoE?

By any chance is it on windows
and do you know what specification is

Anything 8th gen intel I3 or above tends to support it from experience in my testing case 8GB RAM windows 10
on SSD for file download tests since HDD speeds can pose issues

edit
I will add, if it doesn't manage it there is another way and that would be to make a bootable USB stick running linux, it's relatively easy to do but let's leave this option until you test it first

Edited by RR_The_IT_Guy (Wed 19-Jan-22 16:52:28)

Most modern computers with a 1gb network port should be fine

just create a pppoe connection on windows and plug your cable directly into the ont. It should comfirm if its the routers

In reply to a post by Taras:

Most modern computers with a 1gb network port should be fine

thanks for pointing that out, i am so used to them having it now i completely forgot

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

I have also noticed my Draytek is going over 90% CPU during a speedtest, which makes me suspect that this might be the bottleneck.

From the Draytek website for the 2860

Performance:
Firewall: Up to 300Mb/s max
IPSec VPN: Up to 50Mb/s max

So the Draytek is limited by the firewall.

That was it, I connected my modern iMac direct and got 900Mbps straight away! Thank you so much for this suggestion, I thought I'd done it but I used my old computer before which is actually from 2010(!), so clearly didn't have the horsepower.

Now.... does anyone have any recommendations for a new router? I do not need Wifi (I have a commercial wifi solution through the house). Would like to spend as little as possible.

Thanks again,


Tom.

Ah, yes, this will be why then. I am getting up to 450Mbit/s with the latest firmware but clearly it cannot cope. Thanks.

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

That was it, I connected my modern iMac direct and got 900Mbps straight away! Thank you so much for this suggestion, I thought I'd done it but I used my old computer before which is actually from 2010(!), so clearly didn't have the horsepower.

Now.... does anyone have any recommendations for a new router? I do not need Wifi (I have a commercial wifi solution through the house). Would like to spend as little as possible.

Thanks again,


Tom.

Glad to hear it, Seeing you write the word mac was quite good for your speed tier since they provide considerably more accurate results than PC's. PC's are known to have networking issues, all fixable but annoying, I use a mac myself for network testing and configuration, mainly because I was spending more time fixing the issues windows would cause after each update.

when it comes to good routers i'll let the others suggest what they think but what are your requirements?

Thanks again.

Router requirements are really simple, just support 1Gbps WAN plus at least 4 LAN ports. Need VLAN tagging. No Wifi needed. Happy to hack Linux use OpenWRT or whatever, just want good basic hardware. I’d use a Raspberry Pi if it had more ports and was up to it but suspect too slow anyway.

If you've just renewed a contract with Zen, then cheapest would be if you can persuade them to provide you with their current model of whatever router they normally supply for FTTP. As far as I can see, a new contract for 900M (24 months) "Includes FRITZ!Box 7530 Wifi Router" free of charge.

Thanks, I have a FritzBox 7530 from a previous contract with Zen but I have not been able to get that to perform either. If anything it was 50Mbps or so slower than the Vigor, topping out at 350Mbps typically. I don't know what it actually supports or if there is a more powerful model available from them.

I will try it again, don't think there's much in the way of configuration on it.


Tom.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If you've just renewed a contract with Zen, then cheapest would be if you can persuade them to provide you with their current model of whatever router they normally supply for FTTP. As far as I can see, a new contract for 900M (24 months) "Includes FRITZ!Box 7530 Wifi Router" free of charge.

That's probably best looking at prices, that's what I would do if i had a "commercial WiFi system"
If it was a enterprise business I would be like Cisco Catalyst maybe, depends on requirement

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

Thanks, I have a FritzBox 7530 from a previous contract with Zen but I have not been able to get that to perform either. If anything it was 50Mbps or so slower than the Vigor, topping out at 350Mbps typically. I don't know what it actually supports or if there is a more powerful model available from them.

I will try it again, don't think there's much in the way of configuration on it.


Tom.

Is there a pinhole reset you could try, that might help?

I will have a look and see.

Well the wifi system I have was installed in better financial times. I don't have a commercial use at the moment, just in start-up mode (with start-up finances!) so Cisco etc... all entirely possible in the future but for now, just need a cheap solution.

By the way, the FritzBox only has a 733Mhz Arm Cortex A9 processor (4 cores), I don't think its hardware is up to it. Quite a few reports out there that it cannot really handle 1Gbps consistently. So I think I'll look for something else.

Thanks again.

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

Thanks, I have a FritzBox 7530 from a previous contract with Zen but I have not been able to get that to perform either. If anything it was 50Mbps

I might be wrong here but I think I seen that Zen set some kind of speed limits in the setting on their routers, Could be this since you've had a slower speed package previously

Thanks Bawlk, I will check this.

In reply to a post by Bawlk:

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

Thanks, I have a FritzBox 7530 from a previous contract with Zen but I have not been able to get that to perform either. If anything it was 50Mbps

I might be wrong here but I think I seen that Zen set some kind of speed limits in the setting on their routers, Could be this since you've had a slower speed package previously

That's a good point i heard someone said there is a max rate option somewhere in the configuration page

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

By the way, the FritzBox only has a 733Mhz Arm Cortex A9 processor (4 cores), I don't think its hardware is up to it. Quite a few reports out there that it cannot really handle 1Gbps consistently. So I think I'll look for something else.

I don't have any experience with Fritz!box, but those 4 ARM cores ought to be able to route a gig, as long as the firmware is not garbage. I have a couple of Mikrotik devices I can compare with:

* hEX PoE, single core MIPS 800MHz: can just about route 300Mbps (more with fastpath, but that's IPv4 only)
* RB4011: quad core ARM 1.4GHz, can route 1G in its sleep (uses less than 1 core)

If you already have the Fritz!box, then you might as well reset it, make sure it has the latest firmware, and give it another try.

Having said that, for *single threaded* use cases - e.g. one massive HTTP download - you may well find that all traffic hits a single core and that becomes the bottleneck. If you have multiple active users online, that may spread the usage over the cores better.

I think to be fair the poor old A9 ARM processor is getting on a bit now, and clocked at a relatively lowly 733 MHz might well struggle on single-core dominant PPPoE at gigabit rates.

Having 3 other cores won't help if the PPPoE encaps. / de-encapsulation (IS THAT a word??) is the bottleneck, then firewall perf etc on top...might struggle

The A15 ARM processor in your RB4011 clearly is in another class altogether. 40% more grunt at the same speed as the A9...

I think the firmware is pretty poor, it has almost zero configurability (which was a big benefit with the Draytek) and I think you are right that for single-core performance on PPPoE it cannot cut it but it can probably do 1Gbps just about overall using all cores, so I presume Zen will say it "can" do it.

And you are of course right that I need to consider a typical use case, not just a single-core speedtest, so the Fritz may be better than it looks from that perspective, although I don't think it has the features I want.

Thanks for the pointers on Mikrotik devices, they look cool. Will research some more. Am thinking about a non-wifi Draytek Vigor 2865, which are about £230 at the moment, but prefer to spend less if I can get something configurable. I grew up with Drayteks but they may be expensive old hat these days - they were never cheap.

Yes, I think this is the problem, it cannot really cut it, which is no surprise since it is built to a budget.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I think to be fair the poor old A9 ARM processor is getting on a bit now, and clocked at a relatively lowly 733 MHz might well struggle on single-core dominant PPPoE at gigabit rates.

Having 3 other cores won't help if the PPPoE encaps. / de-encapsulation (IS THAT a word??) is the bottleneck, then firewall perf etc on top...might struggle

The A15 ARM processor in your RB4011 clearly is in another class altogether. 40% more grunt at the same speed as the A9...

Just out of interest what do you think my router could handle (It has 2.5 gig ethernet for potential fast service) and a 1.5 GHz Quad-Core CPU
full specs below
Archer AX90 New AX6600 Tri-Band Gigabit Wi-Fi 6 Router


I currently sit at 14-18% CPU usage when it's just handling sitting not handling large amounts of data
when maxing out my 110Mbps down and 10Up at the same time we get peaks of 35% although drops to around 30% -28% while consensually maxed my current connection CPU usage

I thought it might be useful to others if I summarised what I've learned in answer to my questions:

1. Yes it is likely that the router cannot cope. This was the cause of my problem verified by me connecting a modern PC directly to the ONT via Ethernet PPPoE, which verified I am getting the full 900Mbps promised. 900Mbps needs decent router hardware, not old or cheapo kit. [Note: I am still working with the FritzBox to see if I can get it to perform better, it should do better than it is].

2. Yes, you should be able to get 900Mbps on a speedtest - IF the single-core performance of your router/PC is good enough. It should work to a variety of hosts but try a few and try at "quiet" times if it varies a lot. If you are not getting it try the setup in (1) to verify using a decent desktop computer.

3. Yes, you can do a file download. Best to do a multi-threaded download to test properly, I used wget with Tele2's servers at speedtest.tele2.net. Bear in mind that using multiple threads with multiple cores may enable a greater throughput on your router so the numbers may be higher here than you get with a speedtest (if you are single-core performance constrained).

Also, bear in mind your usage needs. If this is a shared connection, maximum single-core performance matters much less. If it is just you you'll notice it more.

Still on the lookout for the best router upgrade option on a budget.... will report back later.


Tom.

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

Anything 8th gen intel I3 or above tends to support it from experience in my testing case 8GB RAM windows 10

I call rot, I have a >10 year old Core 2 Duo with 1 GbE port that can saturate a gigabit connection to a server on a LAN through a gigabit switch (970 megabits / second).

Routers used with majority of Openreach based (PPPoE) connections have to handle more overhead than those used with Virgin Media (DHCP only).

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

Anything 8th gen intel I3 or above tends to support it from experience in my testing case 8GB RAM windows 10

I call rot, I have a >10 year old Core 2 Duo with 1 GbE port that can saturate a gigabit connection to a server on a LAN through a gigabit switch (970 megabits / second).

Routers used with majority of Openreach based (PPPoE) connections have to handle more overhead than those used with Virgin Media (DHCP only).

Surely that isn't apples-to-apple though? I would have thought there's a big difference between simply routing traffic over a LAN and doing firewalled NAT on all packets and I would have thought that's the big overhead, not the PPPoE protocol itself? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the reason that low-end routers struggle.

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

Anything 8th gen intel I3 or above tends to support it from experience in my testing case 8GB RAM windows 10

I call rot, I have a >10 year old Core 2 Duo with 1 GbE port that can saturate a gigabit connection to a server on a LAN through a gigabit switch (970 megabits / second).

Routers used with majority of Openreach based (PPPoE) connections have to handle more overhead than those used with Virgin Media (DHCP only).

Surely that isn't apples-to-apple though? I would have thought there's a big difference between simply routing traffic over a LAN and doing firewalled NAT on all packets and I would have thought that's the big overhead, not the PPPoE protocol itself? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the reason that low-end routers struggle.

To be honest i was thinking to myself I have some low spec machines like 3rd gen I3 that handle local networking really well, they just don't handle speed tests on external networks even in desktop applications very well, CLI's a little better.

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

I thought it might be useful to others if I summarised what I've learned in answer to my questions:

1. Yes it is likely that the router cannot cope. This was the cause of my problem verified by me connecting a modern PC directly to the ONT via Ethernet PPPoE, which verified I am getting the full 900Mbps promised. 900Mbps needs decent router hardware, not old or cheapo kit. [Note: I am still working with the FritzBox to see if I can get it to perform better, it should do better than it is].

2. Yes, you should be able to get 900Mbps on a speedtest - IF the single-core performance of your router/PC is good enough. It should work to a variety of hosts but try a few and try at "quiet" times if it varies a lot. If you are not getting it try the setup in (1) to verify using a decent desktop computer.

3. Yes, you can do a file download. Best to do a multi-threaded download to test properly, I used wget with Tele2's servers at speedtest.tele2.net. Bear in mind that using multiple threads with multiple cores may enable a greater throughput on your router so the numbers may be higher here than you get with a speedtest (if you are single-core performance constrained).

Also, bear in mind your usage needs. If this is a shared connection, maximum single-core performance matters much less. If it is just you you'll notice it more.

Still on the lookout for the best router upgrade option on a budget.... will report back later.


Tom.

I have just had a read of this, I also tried that file downloading site, and it wasn't very consistent on my 100megs
I recommend using the thinkbroadband one's located here

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

I have just had a read of this, I also tried that file downloading site, and it wasn't very consistent on my 100megs
I recommend using the thinkbroadband one's located here

Ok, good shout. I had trouble with the TBB one earlier which is why I found that one. BTW, I found 1Gbps files more consistent generally.

Oh.... have finally got the FritzBox working and doing its thing. Did a firmware update, reset/reboot and double-checked the config and it is now doing its thing. It gets to 900Mbps on a speedtest now, although I think that is at its limit.

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

Ok, good shout. I had trouble with the TBB one earlier which is why I found that one. BTW, I found 1Gbps files more consistent generally.

Oh.... have finally got the FritzBox working and doing its thing. Did a firmware update, reset/reboot and double-checked the config and it is now doing its thing. It gets to 900Mbps on a speedtest now, although I think that is at its limit.

I'm glad to hear it, considering I read that that router can only handle something like 800-890 megs its doing well.

Feel free to let us know if the problem comes back. If it does I would push Zen for a new one as we know it can do it but it could be getting a little buggy in its old age.

Just to say a lot of routers dont use the CPU for PPPoE encapsulation but have hardware offloading that does that so its not a straight case of poor cpu = low pppoe.

In reply to a post by Derpy:

Just to say a lot of routers dont use the CPU for PPPoE encapsulation but have hardware offloading that does that so its not a straight case of poor cpu = low pppoe.

Noted, thanks, that does make a lot of sense.

Indeed so. That’s how many ISP supplied ‘cheap’ routers (with dedicated ASIC etc) perform at the rated speed of their connections, but a replacement third party router without HO may perversely have inferior performance. World is a strange place…or not!

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I think to be fair the poor old A9 ARM processor is getting on a bit now, and clocked at a relatively lowly 733 MHz might well struggle on single-core dominant PPPoE at gigabit rates.

Having 3 other cores won't help if the PPPoE encaps. / de-encapsulation (IS THAT a word??) is the bottleneck, then firewall perf etc on top...might struggle

The A15 ARM processor in your RB4011 clearly is in another class altogether. 40% more grunt at the same speed as the A9...

Just out of interest what do you think my router could handle (It has 2.5 gig ethernet for potential fast service) and a 1.5 GHz Quad-Core CPU
full specs below
Archer AX90 New AX6600 Tri-Band Gigabit Wi-Fi 6 Router


I currently sit at 14-18% CPU usage when it's just handling sitting not handling large amounts of data
when maxing out my 110Mbps down and 10Up at the same time we get peaks of 35% although drops to around 30% -28% while consensually maxed my current connection CPU usage

Sorry no crystal ball here Ryan. You might even find that WiFi 6 outperforms wired on a single throughput test, given it will be capped at around 940 Mbit on the GigE LAN connections.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Sorry no crystal ball here Ryan. You might even find that WiFi 6 outperforms wired on a single throughput test, given it will be capped at around 940 Mbit on the GigE LAN connections.

I haven't yet found a device in my house that outperforms wired, I set up a local speedtest server on my NAS (dual gigabit ethernet) I guess i'll just have to see as speeds increase, I have a pc with a 2.5 gig and gigabit NIC pc's so i could just bridge it to test when the day comes (probably a long way away)

The FritzBox has , under advanced connection settings, an option to set max UL/DL speeds which is used for it’s QoS traffic management. When testing throughput I’ve always set these speeds a little higher that the link speeds and then adjusted as required.

In reply to a post by steve25:

The FritzBox has , under advanced connection settings, an option to set max UL/DL speeds which is used for it’s QoS traffic management. When testing throughput I’ve always set these speeds a little higher that the link speeds and then adjusted as required.

Thanks Steve.

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

To be honest i was thinking to myself I have some low spec machines like 3rd gen I3 that handle local networking really well, they just don't handle speed tests on external networks even in desktop applications very well, CLI's a little better.

Depends on the arch, and how much hardware offload the nic has. Not all 1gb nics are made the same. Anyhoo the difference between good lan speeds and browser based tests on low end machines is that modern web broswers can eat cpu cycles

You can get almost 800Mb/s out of a Draytek 2860 if you enable Hardware Acceleration, disable Data Flow Monitor and disable the Firewall. The latter is only an issue if you wanted to open ports and filter what comes in and/or filter traffic on your LAN.

Failing that, a Draytek 2865 or 2866 does Gigabit PPPoE with all the features enabled.

By way of final update on this thread, I went ahead and invested in a Draytek 2927. It was the right solution for me given that I didn't need wifi and the interface is familiar, plus it has sufficient firewall bandwidth to cope with a future second fibre connection which is in my plans.

It is working a treat and giving me full 900mbps without breaking a sweat.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions on this thread, this is has been a very helpful and welcoming forum.


Tom.

I just went through this, including considering a DrayTek device (among others). I moved to the 1G Virgin Media service (from the 350M) and my LinITX APU2 running OPNsense was not cutting it!

Actually, it was struggling at 350M single stream. I did some optimisations and turned off some features but it still wasn't up to the task. Quite slow CPU so not surprising.

I ended up going with a cheap and cheerful solution that still allows me to run my preferred router/firewall software OPNsense (a fork of pfSense) and came in under £225!

A used small form factor PC which has Core i3-8100 (quad core 3.6ghz, no turbo, no HT) with one 8G ram stick and a 240gb ssd plus a quad port Intel i350 based card (found a 'new' one on ebay which claimed to be a Cisco card - looked correct and legit but it's buyer beware with these cards - your 'Intel' card may not really be made by Intel).

Still playing with it but can do full speeds with routing multiple to lans, geo-blocking, intrusion detection (suricata), traffic shaping, traffic statistics gathering etc.

The used pc seller is actually a charity shop, must have gotten a big lot of these and their tech tested and made them saleable -- look for jamiescomputers on ebay!

(not sure my sig tbb result is updated)

Edited by mrtcs (Sat 22-Jan-22 10:24:47)

In reply to a post by tomsedge99:

Hi,

I've recently had 900Mbps full-fibre service installed via Zen but I am struggling to achieve speeds like that, typically getting 300-450Mbps max on speedtests and never seeing anything higher. [Edit: I am connecting over Ethernet, not Wifi].

I am wondering if my equipment is part of the problem. I have a (relatively) old Draytek Vigor 2860 and a FritzBox 7530 which I got for my old FTTC 80Mbps Zen service. Both give the same results.

Can anyone confirm:

1. Is my router hardware likely to be the limiting factor or should one or both of these be capable of 900Mbps over PPPoE?

.

I'm late to this - bt I also have a 2860 and IIRC the firewall is limited to around 300Mbps - could that be the issue?

Enable Hardware Acceleration, disable Data Flow Monitor and disable the Firewall and the throughput will increase.

Thanks for this - I've been on the look out for a cheap x86 box that can do gigabit WAN with pfSense so I've just bought the same thing from the same place.