How to find if virgin have installed ducts outside house

I recently placwed an order for full fibre with Virgin having been told originally that it was available. When the engineer turned up he could not find the opening outside the house to install the cable. I got a call about 2 weeks later saying I could not have it as the install was over budget. The frustrating part is that both neighbours on either side of my house have virgin full fibre as do the vast majority of the street. Has anybody any idea how I can find the external duct ? I have some brick paving outside but I’d be prepared to take them up and dig. We will all need full fibre eventually I reckon so May as well do the work now

Not an expert but sounds like there wasn't a T point outside your property for service? In your area look for T points outside properties usually marked as CATV, NTL, Virgin Media or similar to confirm connections on your road (databases can be wrong), follow these back, there should also be a larger chamber nearby marked similar along with a cabinet nearby which is serving your area. Cabinets can look similar so potentially check it's not Openreach.

For Virgin Media cabinets, use this guide: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/12/identi...

If the Virgin Media website suggests you can get service, there's potentially some infrastructure somewhere, but it can be wrong sometimes or if it's been paved over, that sometimes happens. Do you have anything on your exterior wall that matches any images in the above link?

Edited by jamesmacwhite (Sat 11-Jun-22 19:01:06)

Thanks for the info, I’m sure the infrastructure will be there as the whole street has virgin broadband and I can see the brown virgin boxes outside the doors of thr neighbours on both sides of the house. The house does have an extension that was built in 2006 so our BT socket is in the porch on what would have been the external wall. I don’t think this has helped which is why I’m thinking I’ll need to find out where the ducting channel comes into the house

It does sound like Virgin Media infrastructure is there. First thing then, do you have a tee point like this outside your house anywhere, this would be in the footway, not on your actual property.

https://community.virginmedia.com/t5/image/serverpag...

They can be different looking, commonly it's labelled CATV, but could be a previous provider name too.

Edited by jamesmacwhite (Sat 11-Jun-22 20:12:19)

Unfortunately not but there’s one in front of next doors virgin box. If I put a duct between my house and that tee point next door would that help or would that tee point solely for the neighbour? I get on with them very well and they would let me do that if it helped

This is the main problem, there is no tee point just off your boundary specifically.

Typically you find a tee point outside each property when there's service there, but I know one tee point could in theory have multiple cables coming from it, my mother in fact has this situation, the tee point is situated outside next door but there are two cables come from it one going to next door the other to her property. I was naughty and lifted the cover off as I was confused as to where the connection from the exterior wall was come from. Whether or not that is technically correct as this going back a bit in terms of ownership pre Virgin Media, that's another question.

You probably shouldn't be touching the tee point as it's on the footway and hence not owned by you. To cross boundaries and such you also need proper wayleave to do it officially. You are better off trying to approach Virgin Media to understand the specific issue with why they won't extend to you. Sometimes they will absorb the cost of any civil/construction work if they deem it cost effective, i.e. the work provides potential service to multiple addresses, in this case they feel it's not cost effective.

When you go through the Virgin Media website, does your specific house number and postcode identify as service available or something else?

Edited by jamesmacwhite (Sat 11-Jun-22 21:00:41)

It did come up as available until they came to install it but not now. I’ve spoken to virgin and raised a complaint but I’m getting nowhere with them

That is unfortunate. Databases are sometimes only as good as the data that's provided to them. Sounds like there might have never been any cable service at the address previously and the database was wrong, it does unfortunately happen. An assumption may have been made about your address at some point given the wider area and only now has the error been found once someone's actually assessed it.

If Virgin Media have deemed any additional civil/construction work not cost effective, there's not a lot you can do I'm afraid.

Unless you strongly believe there is in fact Virgin Media infrastructure at your property, then you probably can't do much. The lack of a tee, any exterior brown box on the wall and no connections inside the property suggests there's not been service ever before.

I'm assuming you don't have any other FTTP provider via Openreach or an alt net in your area?

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when...

You can put your postcode in both the map and form below to get an idea.

No I’m afraid not. Thanks very much for your help and advice much appreciated

In reply to a post by Coops1971:

I recently placwed an order for full fibre with Virgin having been told originally that it was available. When the engineer turned up he could not find the opening outside the house to install the cable. I got a call about 2 weeks later saying I could not have it as the install was over budget. The frustrating part is that both neighbours on either side of my house have virgin full fibre as do the vast majority of the street. Has anybody any idea how I can find the external duct ? I have some brick paving outside but I’d be prepared to take them up and dig. We will all need full fibre eventually I reckon so May as well do the work now

Afraid you’re completely in the hands of VM with this.

Any ducting and access to that ducting in the footway / footpath, together with any swept tees are their sole property and at their discretion. Ducting etc on your side of the property boundary is yours to do with as you wish (subject to not adversely affecting their network), however outside of your boundary is out of bounds. Don’t think you can just join into a neighbours Toby box either. VM would need to bless this.

If your property lacks either a dedicated Toby box and / or swept tee then the only people that can grant the necessary access to their duct network and arrange works permits etc are… you guessed it VM. Don’t even bother or attempt any sort of DIY job on this. Not only will it be flatly refused, you could land yourself in very warm water with the local authority if you attempt to dig up the footpath without permits, permissions and a streetworks licence.

Requesting a new swept-tee into their duct network and/or Toby box is possible, but in my experience a chargeable matter is going through their Developer team - very similar to Openreach going through their Infrastructure Solutions team (albeit VM were 1/5th of the price of Openreach for the civils works).

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice. Just one thing you may be able to advise on - would it be worth me finding where the ducting is outside my house where the brick paving is located? It’s a private drive so not council owned. I think there must be ducting coming in somewhere. I’m worried that when Openreach stat rolling out full fibre I’ll have the same hassle. I’d add a picture but don’t think it’s possible on this forum

You can’t attach directly here, but use a photo sharing/hosting website and post the link to the photo here.

If there is any ducting on your property is typically laid by the developer / your builder at the time of home build or by the network at the time of their rollout / construction.

Do the other neighbours properties follow the same age, pattern of construction etc (like an estate) or are they all different? If the former then you could start by checking where the duct entry could possibly be on your property, based on where it’s located for the neighbours. If there is duct there then it should (hopefully) have been roped, so a blue polypropylene rope tail may be visible.

Finally worth checking if you have any building or other architectural plans that show any services to the house.

The houses were built at the same time around late 90s I’d say it’s a housing estate so nothing too special I’ll try and use a photo sharing website and add a photo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/195895763@N08/shares/q...
Try this link for photos

Photo link
https://www.flickr.com/photos/195895763@N08/shares/q...

The house does have an extension that was built in 2006 so our BT socket is in the porch on what would have been the external wall.

It’s a strong possibility that the original duct etc was either moved, buried or otherwise covered etc as part of these works. Based on where the Virgin duct egress point / brown box is located for your neighbours, can you pinpoint where it could have been once for your property?

Is there a serving VM Toby box on the footpath / verge for any of the properties, including yours?

Only Toby box I can see is the one next door the others seem to come out of a pipe see photo link
https://flic.kr/p/2nrtEuq

That's not a Toby, the Toby boxes will be in the pavement or in the service strip next to the property boundary, not the home itself but the boundary of the plot, and look like this:

https://images.app.goo.gl/CwdzeCT1GAjm46gg8

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

That's not a Toby, the Toby boxes will be in the pavement or in the service strip next to the property boundary, not the home itself but the boundary of the plot, and look like this

Around here they don't all have nice covers on - small green pipes (duct) appearing through the very edge of the footpath, often full of debris. Those that have VM connection have a "shotgun" cable appearing through and disappearing either under a drive or into a boundary wall, fence or trees.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Around here they don't all have nice covers on - small green pipes (duct) appearing through the very edge of the footpath, often full of debris. Those that have VM connection have a "shotgun" cable appearing through and disappearing either under a drive or into a boundary wall, fence or trees.

Yes, this kind of thing but this has the cover in place: https://images.app.goo.gl/QnCeya7MLrrUqe6g9

This a bit different but duct exposed: https://images.app.goo.gl/esxfnBD8GK1b3MGH7

Edited by XGS_Is_On (Sun 12-Jun-22 14:54:04)

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

This a bit different but duct exposed: https://images.app.goo.gl/esxfnBD8GK1b3MGH7

That is what many here look like exactly.

Yes maybe I wasn’t clear there the picture I linked is what all of the houses seem to have which feed into the virgin boxes attached to their house. Can’t see any Toby boxes on the drives at all except the one next door but even that one is bang up to the house wall and it says CATV on it. I think like you say it’s possible that the builders covered the duct which is why I’m considering lifting up the brick paving and digging underneath to se if I can find any ducting. Apparently it would only be up to 25 to 30 cm deep. The flags are uneven so I’d probably level them out at the same time 😀

I reckon that’s what’s happened. The previous occupants brought the Openreach grey duct up and inside the expanded door foyer.

From your photos it looks like Openreach and VM green ducts should be immediately adjacent, so if you lift the flags they with a bit of luck and digging you should be able to locate them both. They won’t be particularly deep. 6 to 12 inches deep max.

Thanks for your help. Time to get the spade out me thinks !

It kinda looks like the property with VM was prewired during construction. That'd explain why it's a 'proper' duct rather than the regular tube with no Toby in the pavement/road/service strip and there's no mark in the drive where the drop was built.

I really struggle with the idea that the cable network builder went across people's front yards right up against their houses with swept tees kicking up right next to houses.

The property owners should have details of any easement VM have to maintain their network if the main duct is going across the property frontages.

It's not new duct network for FTTP either way. The neighbour's install is coax.

Hard to say exactly. The green 54mm ducts and tees may possibly installed by the builder / developer during original construction?

I know when I redid our place 2019/20, we were free issued about 11 lengths of green duct, a 100m drum of (very decent spec) white quad-shield RG6 for internal distribution. Our builders ran the new ducts (also for Openreach) and a spare 54mm for future G.Net /CF / Altnet. up to the curtilage.

VM then dug the pavement and ran a new swept tee in to their ducts / footway box. They skipped the existing Cable London Toby completely (as we’d agreed).

Openreach did similar. A new tee back to their footway chamber a few metres away. So there is nothing visible at all on the front of the house. As I wanted but I paid through the nostrils for it.

It does indeed appear that the development was provided with VM services as well as OR , using the same methodology, during the construction of the property’s , rather than some retro fit scheme, where VM leave their ducts at the curtilage with a Toby box (the last section provided as and when customers order service ) and in the OP’s case , when building the property extension the previous householder potentially removed the VM box from the wall and covered the VM duct mouth, although apparently made provision for the OR duct to be accessible …that’s why VM now are saying that although the property is correctly recorded as being able to get VM , it’s effectively not without further works that they apparently are unwilling to undertake themselves.
The OP exposing the VM duct close to the house wall may get them to reconsider and provide service as any reinstatement , and potential damage caused during the excavation, will be down to the householder and not VM

Edited by Iniltous (Sun 12-Jun-22 19:44:52)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

The OP exposing the VM duct close to the house wall may get them to reconsider and provide service as any reinstatement , and potential damage caused during the excavation, will be down to the householder and not VM

A careful dig to expose, hopefully he finds the conduit, then I'd get a 90-degree elbow like this.

Trim the end of the conduit near the house wall and run the elbow up to the base of the wall. With some luck there's an old coax or possibly original blue draw rope that can be used by the VM/Kelly's guys to pull in a new RG6 drop cable.

Thanks all I’ll take your advice and hopefully find the duct

Have you lifted that drain cover right by your front door? It's in a funny place as it seems to be at the high end of the gulley in front of your garage door, but might be in line with the Openreach and Virgin ducts.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

It kinda looks like the property with VM was prewired during construction. That'd explain why it's a 'proper' duct rather than the regular tube with no Toby in the pavement/road/service strip and there's no mark in the drive where the drop was built.

I really struggle with the idea that the cable network builder went across people's front yards right up against their houses with swept tees kicking up right next to houses.

The property owners should have details of any easement VM have to maintain their network if the main duct is going across the property frontages.

It's not new duct network for FTTP either way. The neighbour's install is coax.

That is what we had at a previous house, built in the late 1990s. First phase had BT (now OR) fully built and cabled to a master socket inside. Next to the BT duct on the front of the house there was a East Coast Cable (now VM) CATV duct installed as part of the build. That duct was just a green duct with a yellow cap on the end around ground level. Later phases were prewired for cable to a point in the living room.

The Cable duct work was built much the same as the BT ducts with swept tees off the main duct in the street to each property back, at appropriate points on the way to the Cable Cabinet there were footway boxes the same as BT has them. There were no toby boxes at the edge of each property as it was fully built to the front door.

In the original posters case it sounds like when the extension was built they've just built over the Openreach and Cable ducts as the came up at the end of the property. That gives two issues the one mentioned about getting service (and will be the same for FTTP) and safety. The ducts are designed to come up outside your house not inside, at best they are badly sealed for water (mine has a constant flow of water out of it).

Some houses have internal ducts but those have clear instructions for gas and water sealing from the likes of Openreach and they generally don't like these now. If the ducts have not been correctly sealed there is the risk of gas and water coming into the house. Sadly lots of builders don't understand this and just put extensions over them causing both service and safety issues for people further down the line.

My money would be on the ducts being chopped off rather than the foundations having been bridged over them

Do you think it’s still worth trying to find the ducts to see if they are underneath the brick paving? They must come from somewhere underneath the front of the house. I’m hoping there will be one for BT/OR and one for VM

You could tell Openreach that you're going to be having work done on your front drive and request they come out and locate and mark their duct. Chances are the VM one will be next to it

https://www.openreach.com/building-developers-and-pr...

Pick the "If you want us to come to your site to check equipment" option

Thanks for the advice I may do that. Do you think there would be a charge?

In reply to a post by jpm:

My money would be on the ducts being chopped off rather than the foundations having been bridged over them

Good point I've seen them do that too.

The ducts should be around 35cm down if they've been done to spec, so it might not be too hard to find them, especially if you can see where they would have come up on another house of the same design. I say should as I think the end of the CATV one at my old place the end was that far down which meant the duct was much lower.

Looking at the image I'd suspect the block paving was used to fill where the tarmac was disturbed rather relaying the whole drive? If cut there is a chance you might find the ends of the trunk under there.