Contradicting info from Openreach re: "Direct in the Ground"

I live in a rural property in west Scotland (postcode KA18 2RR) which currently gets terrible broadband of 1Mbps.

About 5 months ago we were delighted to be visited by an Openreach subcontractor who was surveying the area for the installation of FTTP.

The surveyor said he would be arranging for installing the fibre underground rather than using telephone poles, so as not to spoil the views in the area. (Personally I couldn't care less if they put poles up if it means we get decent broadband!)

The road through this area is apparently privately owned, so Openreach contacted the farmer/owner who I know has given them permission (a few months ago) to dig up the road etc. but since then we have not had any updates.

I checked the BIDB.uk website and can't see any planned roadworks in the area.

Last week I contacted Openreach with a quick enquiry about progress and I received a reply saying the following:

I’ve looked into your query and can see that the cabinet that you’re connected to has been upgraded for fibre broadband. But you can’t get the Fibre to the Cabinet(FTTC) service due to how far you are from the cabinet.

The fibre speed is dependent on cable size, materials used and how far away the cabinet is from your home. We’re really sorry, you won’t get fibre speeds on your line.

Further I would like to inform you that the current Copper Network that serves your premises is Direct in the Ground and at present we have no way of providing the Fibre to the Premises(FTTP) network to your property.

We are investigating ways to provide the infrastructure to these types of premises but at this time we are unable to offer any timescales but we can keep you up to date when things change.

I'm hoping this is just a mistake and the FTTP installation is still planned to go ahead.

Checking the Superfast Scotland website I see the following:

Based on the current engineering schedule your address is in scope to receive its superfast connection by the end of September 2022.

Is there any way I can check and see what's actually going on?

Thanks

Edited by zeppelin7 (Tue 02-Aug-22 15:15:58)

They are with me today in a KA18 location, they are mixing moleing a 63mm duct into verges plus direct digging a trench and inserting 50mm tube down my track all with a pull cord. My target date is Jun 2022 but the roadworks only got notified on Scottish Roads website 2 weeks ago and BIDB 2 days later. There is nowhere other than the roadworks site to see what's going on. I might get connected by Oct/Nov based on the fibre and CBT's not being started so guess you are Dec Jan. We are Mushrooms. They seem to be working out from both Cumnock and Drongan with inbetween being the last to do.

PS there is a EE 5G enabled mast just North of Drongan over the other side of the A70 which may be a short term alternative. I can't get a signal from it but you are much closer.

Edited by kommando (Tue 02-Aug-22 15:39:17)

I'm hoping this is just a mistake and the FTTP installation is still planned to go ahead.

Openreach surveying the area doesn't mean you were ever planned to receive FTTP.
The survey is there to decide which properties will and which won't get FTTP.

The surveyor has no idea which properties will receive FTTP. They simply survey the area and some bean counter makes that decision later on.

Your postcode looks like it is in Lot2 of the R100 programme.
Lot1 and Lot3 will be exclusively FTTP. Lot2 will be a mix of FTTP and FTTC although the vast majority will be FTTP.
So even though you may get a Superfast connection from Openreach but it won't necessarily be FTTP.

What makes you think that the DIG (direct in ground) info for your property is contradictory?
Do you know for certain that your Openreach line is fully ducted?

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 02-Aug-22 16:08:08)

Openreach are doing the R100 build, but some time ago dropped all the R100 properties and their planned R100 dates out of their website and reverted to data from the local exchange upgrade dates. So I get the same, OR website says no, R100 website says yes by X date and the actual date is some months later.

In reply to a post by kommando:

They are with me today in a KA18 location, they are mixing moleing a 63mm duct into verges plus direct digging a trench and inserting 50mm tube down my track all with a pull cord. My target date is Jun 2022 but the roadworks only got notified on Scottish Roads website 2 weeks ago and BIDB 2 days later. There is nowhere other than the roadworks site to see what's going on. I might get connected by Oct/Nov based on the fibre and CBT's not being started so guess you are Dec Jan. We are Mushrooms. They seem to be working out from both Cumnock and Drongan with inbetween being the last to do.

PS there is a EE 5G enabled mast just North of Drongan over the other side of the A70 which may be a short term alternative. I can't get a signal from it but you are much closer.

Thanks for the reply. Really nice to hear from someone local on here. I am indeed right between Drongan and Cumnock (near Bardarroch) so it sounds like we could be the last to get done.

I'm using an EE SIM at the moment with a 4G (Teltonika) router and an external antenna but it's pretty dire. Top speed usually maxes out at ~30Mb but typically much lower even though my bog standard iPhone gets 120+Mb from the same spot.

Support has suggested I should configure my router to only connect to certain bands/masts but honestly I'm not sure how to identify which ones I should be choosing.

Do you know much about mobile networking and if so, do you mind if I PM you to pick your brains, please?

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

What makes you think that the DIG (direct in ground) info for your property is contradictory?

It's not that; it's the fact that Openreach are telling me one thing while the R100 website tells me another.

Do DIG properties just usually not receive new superfast connections at all?

Yes PM me for help on 4G as I get 65mbs from EE pointing at Auchinleck mast and you should be much better.

R100 builds in KA18 are all fibre so full fat connection. They were to be FTTC but luckily they went to FTTP.

In reply to a post by zeppelin7:

Do DIG properties just usually not receive new superfast connections at all?

FTTP rollouts have limited budgets and DIG properties are usually more expensive to rollout to.
Some rollouts will have enough funds to cover DIG properties while other rollouts won't.
A street/property being DIG is 1 of the main reasons for being skipped.

Openreach will either return at a later date to cover the skipped DIG properties with leftover funds or they will wait for a subsidy/public funds to pay for covering said properties.

Just a FYI... Superfast is 30Mb+ and Ultrafast is 300Mb/s+.
If you are marked as going to receive a Superfast connection in the future then there's a small chance this will only be FTTC.
If you are marked as going to receive Ultrafast then it should be FTTP.
Though the Superfast Scotland website tends to always state "Superfast" rather than "Ultrafast" so don't worry too much about that.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Ultrafast is 300Mb/s+.

That doesn't sound right to me

Linky

It depends who's definition you take.

OFCOM seem to define Ultrafast as 300Mb/s+ Here and here
Openreach define Ultrafast as 300Mb/s+ (they don't count G.Fast below 300Mb/s as Ultrafast)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

It depends who's definition you take.

OFCOM seem to define Ultrafast as 300Mb/s+ Here and here
Openreach define Ultrafast as 300Mb/s+ (they don't count G.Fast below 300Mb/s as Ultrafast)

OK thanks, must be honest I've always assumed 100Mbps+ was the threshold but its all really sales speak at the end of the day

Thank you for the info. The site does state "superfast" rather than "ultra fast" but I won't worry about that. Beggars can't be choosers anyway!

Is there anywhere I can get more information, updates, etc. or is it simply a case of wait and see [and pray]?

Wait and see is all you can do and keep and eye on bidb.uk, but at least you have a date which confirms it will happen as FTTP even if the target date is fanciful.

Just checked the R100 site and the info's now changed slightly. Instead of "September 2022" it now says "your address is in scope to receive its superfast connection in the second half of 2022."

Wonder if they've softened the language for all queries because of delays, or if my address in particular has been pushed back.

Looks to be general, my date has gone from 'by June' 2022' to '2nd half 2022' but the ducting is in place and cable is being pulled through in next 2 weeks.

In reply to a post by kommando:

Looks to be general, my date has gone from 'by June' 2022' to '2nd half 2022' but the ducting is in place and cable is being pulled through in next 2 weeks.

How's your install going? I've been checking BIDB and can see some new roads around Ochiltree getting done. Still praying they're coming this way soon!

Fibre cable has been pulled through from the road to property boundary, roadworks for cable pulling on the road is booked for mid Nov. According to Morrisons guy, who visited the day before the fibre cable pull, the aim is for go live Dec/Jan. I got them to not bother with a telegraph pole in the field next to the boundary and they left enough ducting and rope for me to run ducting from the current cable chamber to bottom of the house wall with draw rope. I will be digging the trench for the ducting shortly. He also confirmed the exchange I will be connected to is Cumnock not Drongan so that means when Ochiltree Village gets FTTP instead of FTTC then it will likely lose its exchange and connect directly to Cumnock. There are 2 teams doing the fibre cable pull through with 13km of ducting to do.

Edited by kommando (Sun 09-Oct-22 14:42:10)

Nice, I'm green with envy! Last night I was struggling with < 1Mb!

I saw lots of activity on the road from Ochiltree to Dumfries House recently, and according to the BIDB map they're also doing the country road from Ochiltree to Burnton which is getting closer to where I am.

If you ever get another chat with the installers, I'd be super grateful if you would please ask if they know anything about plans to do Bardarroch Farm road.

Cheers and best of luck with the works.

There is another dead zone north of Ochiltree up to the Barskimming Road, Barskimming road is ducted and chambered but they have not touched Mauchline Rd into Ochiltree. Barskimming was worked on under Drongan labels on the roadworks. So I suspect once the current ducted area's are lit the dead zones will be next.

In reply to a post by kommando:

There is another dead zone north of Ochiltree up to the Barskimming Road, Barskimming road is ducted and chambered but they have not touched Mauchline Rd into Ochiltree. Barskimming was worked on under Drongan labels on the roadworks. So I suspect once the current ducted area's are lit the dead zones will be next.

How's your installation going? Still no updates here, despite the Superfast Scotland website still cheerfully telling me that my property is on track to get fibre by the end of 2022.

I submitted another enquiry to Openreach's fibre team who still say this area isn't in their plans, so still the same contradictory info after all this time.

Installed and running, the OR checker was saying my property was outwith their plans right up to the day before it went live. Even though R100 is a BT/OR project they ignore it, mad really. There has been some activity closer to you recently but none on your road.

Don't talk to me about Openreach. They came to our area and plastered all the cabinets with the large adverts stating Full Fibre is now available in your area.
I contacted BT and yes, certainly that is the case, So I ordered FF500.
Very long story short, Openreach has left the last two houses on the road without ducting. We are all DIG properties here. They have done everyone else with ducting and left the last 50 mtrs or so, and disappeared. I did however get an update to my order, along with a quote of over £6K to finish the ducting for the remaining two houses, to be paid by myself.
So order cancelled and I'm now back on FTTC after a long fight, as OR have declared all the copper in my area to be ceased....
Very angry does not quite describe my disgust with Openreach at the moment!

In reply to a post by kommando:

Installed and running, the OR checker was saying my property was outwith their plans right up to the day before it went live. Even though R100 is a BT/OR project they ignore it, mad really. There has been some activity closer to you recently but none on your road.

That's great, congratulations! A good end to the year for you.

In reply to a post by Adduxi:

Don't talk to me about Openreach. They came to our area and plastered all the cabinets with the large adverts stating Full Fibre is now available in your area.
I contacted BT and yes, certainly that is the case, So I ordered FF500.
Very long story short, Openreach has left the last two houses on the road without ducting. We are all DIG properties here. They have done everyone else with ducting and left the last 50 mtrs or so, and disappeared. I did however get an update to my order, along with a quote of over £6K to finish the ducting for the remaining two houses, to be paid by myself.
So order cancelled and I'm now back on FTTC after a long fight, as OR have declared all the copper in my area to be ceased....
Very angry does not quite describe my disgust with Openreach at the moment!

Oh no, that's the stuff of nightmares. My own property (also DIG) is one of two along a dead-end side road as well, so I'm worried similar could happen here.

Does Openreach have a complaints process or could you reach out to your MP and/or the communications ombudsman to try to force them to resolve your situation? Sounds very unfair and against their service obligations.

In reply to a post by zeppelin7:

Does Openreach have a complaints process or could you reach out to your MP and/or the communications ombudsman to try to force them to resolve your situation? Sounds very unfair and against their service obligations.

Which specific service obligation are you referring to? If they provide fixed-line telephony, and more than 10Mbps broadband (both may be on copper), then they have met them.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Which specific service obligation are you referring to? If they provide fixed-line telephony, and more than 10Mbps broadband (both may be on copper), then they have met them.

Ah, I didn't realise. Well in that case I guess it's just "tough luck"?

Interesting that the minimum is 10Mb as I'm currently on < 1Mb. Do they have to provide that via fixed-line service or do they get a pass if mobile data is available?

4G is available here but it's extremely unreliable especially for any latency-sensitive services such as video calling and gaming.

As you are R100 then DIG can only be an issue if there is a wayleave involved as Scot Gov is picking up the tab, if the ducting is in the road verge only before it gets to your property boundary then no wayleave is needed. If it goes over someone else's property then a wayleave is needed and should have been sorted out some months ago.

In reply to a post by kommando:

As you are R100 then DIG can only be an issue if there is a wayleave involved as Scot Gov is picking up the tab, if the ducting is in the road verge only before it gets to your property boundary then no wayleave is needed. If it goes over someone else's property then a wayleave is needed and should have been sorted out some months ago.

A wayleave was signed about 6 months ago by the owner of the road (Bardarroch Farm). That's why I'm confused when Openreach tell me there's no plans for FTTP in this area - there obviously is, and it seems like it's already underway.

Not sure what is going on, 2 years ago if I put my property into the OR fibre checker it said it was in plan, then within a few months it went to no plans and stayed that way until it went live. At some point they must have decided to keep the R100 properties outside the OR fibre install plans, I got no OR email telling me I was connected despite registering interest and getting confirmation they would tell me as soon as I could order. Not to worry, if you are on the Scotlandsuperslow website as r100 then eventually you will get fibre. I have 2 failed planned connection dates.on the superslow website, looks like you are at 3.

Thanks, that's encouraging.

I did see a new set of planned works on the BIDB.uk website today; the road towards Sinclairston, which is close to Bardarroch. So maybe that means something.

Work has finally started in this area! A couple of guys have dug mole trenches along the verges and are now tunnelling under the roadways where the ducting needs to cross over.

Hoping the Openreach folk won't be far behind.

How did you find out when fibre was available to order? Do they send you a notice or do you just keep checking manually?

Had to check manually, I had signed up for OR notification but that took 2 months after connection to appear, R100 does not appear to be a priority to them. Been with Giganet and its been flawless.

In reply to a post by Adduxi:

Don't talk to me about Openreach. <snip>I did however get an update to my order, along with a quote of over £6K to finish the ducting for the remaining two houses, to be paid by myself.
<snip>

Just to update this one. I did eventually complain to Openreach and they, to my surprise, came back to say I should not have been asked to pay anything. They arranged a new survey and discovered an old duct which meant about 50% less digging work. So, a new much shorter trench was dug and ducting installed. The install was done about 2 weeks ago and as I had prepared cable trunking etc for the ONT, it went very smoothly. Once the ONT was live, I just connected my own router and it's all working as expected.