Interesting pavement works by altnet

Swish are rolling out FTTP in Brackley at the moment and I'm intrigued by what I'm seeing as I walk around. My estate was built a while back but all utilities are underground. I had assumed Swish would mostly use BT ducting but now I'm not sure. There are parts of the estate where Swish' contractors are digging trenches along the pavement despite there being regular BT boxes in the ground. Even more intriguingly some of the Swish trenches include a BT box - some even end at a BT box.

I could understand the need to dig down to the BT ones if they've collapsed but in some areas it looks like they are digging a second set of ducts and linking them to the BT ducts. Given that no new properties have been built on this estate for at least ten years (and in the parts they are currently digging - over 25 years) why would they need to dig so much?

Just curious.

Edited by Andrue (Thu 13-Oct-22 21:32:38)

Could it be that the additional ‘unexplained’ trenches will eventually lead to one of those slender green boxes …. They seem to house nodes of some sort, but not seen in one yet. Swish aren’t in any of the locations I frequent round here, so this is just a guess.

Maybe the BT ducts are at capacity?

Having witnessed Swish install in Marlow, Bucks, it seems that they don't use BT ducts, but install their own. In contrast, F&W networks installed in High Wycombe exclusively used BT ducts.

When I and a neighbour suggested to Gigaclear that they use a BT duct somewhere in Kent to save digging up a private road, we were told that Gigaclear did not do that.

Edited by Michael_Chare (Fri 14-Oct-22 10:36:04)

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

When I and a neighbour suggested to Gigaclear that they use a BT duct somewhere in Kent to save digging up a private road, we were told that Gigaclear did not do that.

I'm going to speculate that Gigaclear are aware of the existence of PIA and which roads are private, Michael

This is just how they've chosen to build their network, Andrue. The altnets range from zero PIA through to all PIA unless the Openreach infrastructure is beyond repair.

The two around here are one on the all PIA end of the scale, Netomnia, and one nearer the other end, CityFibre. The CityFibre deployment here is making heavy use of their own ducts for spine and branch, but using Openreach poles and ducts where possible for customer drops.

That said CityFibre are standing a fair amount of poles of their own as well both for use as drops and, very rarely, carrier poles.

Thanks for the replies. It'll be interesting to see how it continues. Right now based on where I've seen them they aren't using their own trenches everywhere - just in a few places. Perhaps those are just the places where BT ducts are blocked? Or..could an Altnet work with BT to create replacement trenches? Seems unlikely.

Or..could an Altnet work with BT to create replacement trenches? Seems unlikely.

Nah … it’s all one way traffic.

If there’s Altnet ducts between Openreach boxes, Openreach are strictly forbidden to run any of their lineplant through them.

All animals are created equal, though some are more equal than others.

We've got Lit Fibre around here putting whatever their version of a CBT is into chambers already occupied by Openreach and Hyperoptic, and I assume Netomia are going to do the same thing in the next year or so, which leads me to the question of how this space is allocated.

Is it first come first served for chamber space to the degree that it's worth rushing around and throwing kit into them before you're the one who has to pay for a new chamber to be built?

Not a clue …. I can however, confirm that it seems too much of a coincidence that the copper joints get thrown into the base amongst the water and detritus in boxes that have PIA kit in them.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Not a clue …. I can however, confirm that it seems too much of a coincidence that the copper joints get thrown into the base amongst the water and detritus in boxes that have PIA kit in them.

It does seem very wild west with the work i've seen going on - I assume all activity is logged by OR centrally, but there's so many ducts and boxes, it's on a matter of time before some alt net cuts off an Openreach backhaul.

In reply to a post by AndyPandy:

Having witnessed Swish install in Marlow, Bucks, it seems that they don't use BT ducts, but install their own. In contrast, F&W networks installed in High Wycombe exclusively used BT ducts.

Swish do use BT ducts in some places, my own install for example is run via BT ducts.

From looking at how they did the install on my road, they have their own underground box serving the road which has trenches to 2 nearby BT boxes. They also ran their own trenches to serve houses which don't have any visible exit pipe from BTs ducts, just a cable coming up directly from the ground.

Got a note through the door this morning saying that they are going to be digging up our pavements. Seems odd to me - we're a cul-de-sac with ducting along both sides of the street. Also we don't really have pavements, just grass verges. If they want to put in new ducting they'll either have to dig up the road or dig up people's driveways (which they clearly won't be doing).

Weird.

Openreach stopped using DIG cables and provided a fully ducted method for providing service on suitable housing developments from around the early to mid 90’s , so property from this era or later will almost certainly be ducted , and PIA allows Alt Nets that consume the PIA product to utilise these , so if the property’s in question have ducts to the house wall , it’s very strange that a Telco that uses PIA would go to the expense of overlaying with their own ducts.

If the property’s are not ducted because they were built earlier than the 1990s or there was some other local restrictions then PIA may get the Alt Net into the general area , but they would need to provide their own ducts to the individual houses, linking these to their own footway boxes or Openreach footway boxes or a mixture of the two.

Housing that has a service strip , so the householders garden appears to extend to the road edge is very much a grey area when it comes to ownership , the last metre of ‘garden’ wasn’t initially the homeowner property ,it contained ‘utilities’ and the utility company’s had access rights , but if the homeowner over many years has maintained that area , then it can be thought of as now their property and utilities should be wary of simply turning up and excavating , and obviously some will have landscaped this service strip or incorporated it into the driveway etc, so it wouldn’t be that the reinstatement would be ‘invisible’ but leave scars should excavation take place…toby boxes are not designed to be installed in the carriageway but footpath or soft/unmade surfaces

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 15-Oct-22 12:21:11)

We have underground cabling in the pavements but I don't know if we are DIG to the property or not. Houses were built in the early 90s. My phone cables do go into a circular piece of plastic in the ground.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/aUgD6HFJxddWMCjo9

The area between our drives and the road is just about wide enough for a BT cover and nothing else.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XAkcrTDbgTdc372a6

That is Duct 56 and will go directly or via duct ‘tees’ to a footway jointbox , so it should be easy (ish) to serve your address , however the fact that there isn’t a cover ( connector bend 4a ) over the duct and there is visible detritus in the duct , an Openreach survey would (should) mark it as ‘congested’ , which simply means the duct would be cabled or roped before a contractual date is given for the installation , just in case some excavation was needed to unblock the duct , how other providers who could use this duct via PIA regard it , is entirely up to them.

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 15-Oct-22 15:34:27)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

That is Duct 56 and will go directly or via duct ‘tees’ to a footway jointbox , so it should be easy (ish) to serve your address, however the fact that there isn’t a cover (connector bend 4a) over the duct and there is visible detritus in the duct

Hopefully it may not be as bad as it first looks as there may be a 'Duct Plug 1A' in there that has been slightly pushed down that the debris is sitting on.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

That is Duct 56 and will go directly or via duct ‘tees’ to a footway jointbox , so it should be easy (ish) to serve your address, however the fact that there isn’t a cover (connector bend 4a) over the duct and there is visible detritus in the duct

Hopefully it may not be as bad as it first looks as there may be a 'Duct Plug 1A' in there that has been slightly pushed down that the debris is sitting on.

If a 'Plug 1A' is made of foam rubber then yes

Also did I post a private link for the second image by accident? Because there is a footway cover directly outside my property:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kg3e6BWHwSeVm8YP6

And if someone is going to lay more ductwork there (which Swift's contractors are elsewhere in a few places) then I'm intrigued to know where they are going to put it.

We do have some 'proper' pavement further back up the cul-de-sac so perhaps that's the only bit they are actually going to dig. It'll be interesting to see what does happen but beyond that I want to stay with IDNet and am happy to wait for openreach to upgrade me since that should be on the cards within a year or two anyway.

Edited by Andrue (Sat 15-Oct-22 16:29:59)

In reply to a post by Andrue:

If a 'Plug 1A' is made of foam rubber then yes

Yes, high density form and they do slip a bit when pushed.

In reply to a post by Andrue:

Also did I post a private link for the second image by accident? Because there is a footway cover directly outside my property:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kg3e6BWHwSeVm8YP6

And if someone is going to lay more ductwork there (which Swift's contractors are elsewhere in a few places) then I'm intrigued to know where they are going to put it.

Believe it or not that's more than enough space for another networks ducts.

Openreach's ducts are over 500mm deep. Only the footway jointbox is near the surface.

Altnets will easily and happily dig in the space between the kerbstone and the Openreach box.

Looks like they aren't going to do much. A box has been drawn on the pavement near the street entrance next to an existing BT box with lines indicating they will be linked and 'TW4' written inside. So my guess is they just want a new footway box for their own kit and will use existing BT ducting for the final connection.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 17-Oct-22 21:41:45)

A general question.

Swish are installing in the area but they only appear to install on one side of each road. How do they get to the other sides?

If it's anything like here - there are places where there are road crossings - so the main "trunk" is down the N-side of the road, and crossings every 10-12 houses to stub ducts on the S-side.

In reply to a post by smouty:

Swish are installing in the area but they only appear to install on one side of each road. How do they get to the other sides?

By following the chicken?

Thanks.
Each of the houses on the N side have had a floor box outside on the pavement fitted but there is nothing on the S side?

If they're not using existing PIA (Openreach) ducts - it's probably snarled up in some local bureaucracy.