FTTP showing as not available but our DP has it

Hi Everyone, happy new year!

This is another 'my neighbour has it but I don't' post. My business property is on a street corner with our postcode being one street (Send Hill, GU23 7HT) but our phone line coming from a different street (Vicarage Lane, GU23 7JN). Our neighbours on Vicarage Land have FTTP but our neighbours on Send Hill do not. Openreach Fibre Checker is saying FTTP is not available.

I can see the fibre cable on the DP that feeds our property. Is there anything to be done? I've heard that MrSaffron knows a thing or two.

Just to add to the mix, there is already a leased fibre line to the premises but the company who own it are moving out and it will be decommissioned soon.

Thanks for your knowledge.
JW

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

I can see the fibre cable on the DP that feeds our property.

But can you see a Connectorised Block Terminal (CBT)? If not, then you're likely not in the built footprint of the FTTP network, which is why you can't order service.

The fibre you can see could be just passing through on its way to serve someone else, or it could be for the leased line. If there are any markings on the fibre cable or track node, and you post them here, someone may be able to identify what they're for.

Unfortunately, there is always a boundary where an FTTP deployment ends. If you're just outside that boundary, it can be very disappointing

Thanks candlerb,

But can you see a Connectorised Block Terminal (CBT)?

Are they the black plastic dome shaped things on the DP? If so yes, there are at least two. I'll have to go and check.

If there are any markings on the fibre cable or track node

do you mean for the leased line that's already here? I can certainly get some numbers off that.

there is always a boundary where an FTTP deployment ends

yes I'm aware of this and keeping all things crossed that we're in the boundary!

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Thanks candlerb,

But can you see a Connectorised Block Terminal (CBT)?

Are they the black plastic dome shaped things on the DP?

No, they sound like they are copper joints. What are you referring to as a DP here - do you mean pole?

Edit: If this is the pole that your copper line is connected to then you have a fibre CBT at the top of it, you need to fill in the "my neighbours have FTTP but I don't" form on the Openreach website

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2799591,-0.5346866,3...

Edited by jpm (Tue 03-Jan-23 12:10:17)

Hi JPM,

Yep, you found our pole.

do you mean pole?

Yes.

I've marked out our lines here.

The leased line terminates in a box with the this text on it: TQWES - YWMBB/0A ON 00101

I'll check out the openreach website, thanks.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

But can you see a Connectorised Block Terminal (CBT)?

Are they the black plastic dome shaped things on the DP?

No. They are rectangular boxes with 4, 8 or 12 downward-pointing "teats", which are where the fibre drop cables to individual properties are plugged in.

See images on first post in this thread:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/massive-cbt...

EDIT: there are some more images in this article:
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/8620-a-walk-in-a...
There's one in the foreground in the image labelled "Selection of Openreach FTTP elements", and if you click on "12 port version" you'll see a 12-port CBT, albeit mounted in a footway box rather than on a pole.

Edited by candlerb (Tue 03-Jan-23 12:58:13)

The Vicarage opposite the pole shows FTTP availability, there's no reason why you shouldn't have the same. Probably just a database tweak needs performing.

Thank you! It looks like jpm spotted a CBT on our pole.

Thanks jpm. That's what I think - but who knows! Maybe candlerb is right and we are out of the boundary for FTTP.

Do you know how I can I go about intiliasing the process of database tweak?

Cool. If that's definitely the pole that serves you, then you can raise an issue here:
https://www.openreach.com/forms/fibre-broadband-avai...
- select "I cannot get fibre but my neighbours can".

The FTTP network doesn't *necessarily* follow the same topology as the copper network, and it's possible that your property has been planned to be served (in future) by FTTP from a different route. But if you explain that your copper service comes from this pole, and the pole has a CBT, then you may be in luck.

EDIT: the pole has a "DP" label, but I can't read it fully in Google Maps. Looks something like "DP 141...0". If you include the full label that would make it easier for them.

Edited by candlerb (Tue 03-Jan-23 13:15:31)

mlpstudios

You need to use the OR checker at https://www.openreach.com/fibre-checker and then click on the I can't find my address link.

Edit: candlerb has posted the correct form link.

Add your details to the form including the info about which pole you are served from with a picture showing the CBT and the DP number.

You must clearly be served by telephone service from that particular pole/DP if it comes from anywhere else you are not covered by the CBT.

There used to be a different form exactly for this purpose but I cannot fine it on the latest version of the checker.

Edited by kitcat (Tue 03-Jan-23 13:24:35)

Thank you! You guys rock.

The DP is 1410.

Thank you so much!

*Update*

Received this email from Openreach Fibre Team:

"I have looked into this and the fibre network has been built in your area but there is an error in our records which is preventing you from placing an order. I’m now in the process of correcting this for you.

I need to associate your address to the nearby fibre equipment. It will take us about a week to complete this and you should then be able to place an order. I will update you as soon as our systems reflect this."

This sounds very positive!

Almost a guarantee that FTTP will flip to available. Usually doesn’t take a week either.

Get your order in before you tell all the neighbours though

mlpstudios

Now just need to check each day, none of the ones I have been involved with has taken a week but strike action may affect timescales now.

It's available now

https://i.imgur.com/0nDdnQa.png

Edited by jpm (Sat 07-Jan-23 13:18:40)

HI Everyone,

UPDATE - as of today, Siraj, Openreach engineer came and installed our ONT and we have FTTP. Thanks again for all your help to get this working.

Getting speeds very close to 900Mbps.

Question - the upload figure on BT wholesale says up to 220Mbps and I'm getting 100Mbps. I know that Zen said I would only get 100Mbps but I would like to know WHY I can only get 100Mbps when the line is rated for 220Mbps?

Is this a cap that Zen put in place or Openreach? Is it a hardware or software thing?

I ask because I do A LOT of uploading, cloud backups everyday etc...

Many thanks,
James

p.s. the tool Siraj used to join the fibre strands together was pretty friggin cool

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

I ask because I do A LOT of uploading, cloud backups everyday etc...

Ask Zen?

Thanks jchamier,

I was going to call them in the morning anyway but I figured I might get a more interesting technical response on here first 😁

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Question - the upload figure on BT wholesale says up to 220Mbps and I'm getting 100Mbps. I know that Zen said I would only get 100Mbps but I would like to know WHY I can only get 100Mbps when the line is rated for 220Mbps?

Is this a cap that Zen put in place or Openreach? Is it a hardware or software thing?

It’s a limit on your Zen plan. The line is capable of more - but Zen don’t offer that package and even if they did the cost would make your eyes water.

It's cheaper to buy 2x 900Mbps packages than trying to get the 220Mbps upload one, assuming whatever offsite backup service the OP is subscribed to can use more than one TCP connection (they will) then bonding will work really well.

Edited by jpm (Thu 09-Feb-23 22:13:48)

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Question - the upload figure on BT wholesale says up to 220Mbps and I'm getting 100Mbps. I know that Zen said I would only get 100Mbps but I would like to know WHY I can only get 100Mbps when the line is rated for 220Mbps?

Is this a cap that Zen put in place or Openreach? Is it a hardware or software thing?

Openreach currently offer 17 bandwidth profiles, each with a maximum and committed rates for downstream and upstream traffic - see https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp... Table 1.

Communication providers will typically only offer a subset of these to customers - whilst the maximum offered is 1000/220 this and the 500/165 profile both have a much greater setup and rental price so most providers do not offer services based on them.

Zen will be using the 1000/115 profile and knock a bit off the numbers to account for ethernet, PPPoE and IP framing/encapsulation overheads - 1460 bytes of TCP payload data uses 1526 bytes for transmission.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

p.s. the tool Siraj used to join the fibre strands together was pretty friggin cool

Pretty sure Openreach are now using UCLswift clad-aligning “all in one” splicers. They automate and take out a lot of manual steps in the cut, strip, cleave, splice, heat process.

The OP could treat themselves to one ….

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354173647123?mkcid=16&mke...

That's a lot of machine for the money

That's excatly what it was, although it was a bit rubbish at stripping the coating off the fibre!

In reply to a post by tdw42:

Openreach currently offer 17 bandwidth profiles, each with a maximum and committed rates for downstream and upstream traffic - see https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp... Table 1.

Thank you tdw42, that's really interesting. So, can anyone also tell me why the BT Wholesale Speedtest can 'see' the maximum speed of the line (up and down) when the 'real world' speeds are capped?

Just for my own interest.
Many thanks.

In reply to a post by jpm:

That's a lot of machine for the money

That fleabay one’s a bit of a ripoff.

You can get their core-aligning version K33 from the trade for around £3K. The clad-aligning ones they give to the guys doing drop connections are a bit cheaper.

The gold standard though still is Sumitomo and Fujikura in this space.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

In reply to a post by tdw42:

Openreach currently offer 17 bandwidth profiles, each with a maximum and committed rates for downstream and upstream traffic - see https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp... Table 1.

Thank you tdw42, that's really interesting. So, can anyone also tell me why the BT Wholesale Speedtest can 'see' the maximum speed of the line (up and down) when the 'real world' speeds are capped?

Just for my own interest.
Many thanks.

BT Wholesale checker just list the maximum possible FTTP tier/package that could be available to an ISP.

No necessarily the packages offered by the dozens of service provider on Openreach.

As previously pointed out there are only a handful of providers that will sell 1000/220 as the audience for it is niche due to the cost.

I'm sure it's just what can be offered to any ISP that use BT Wholesale, not every ISP?

Other than some rare exceptions (old ancient ECI base kit) - Openreach can support the full 1000/220 (won’t confuse matters further with the new higher down load tiers) on the “pipe”.

It’s up to the ISP to then decide what packages/tiers they will offer over this pipe. Whether they use BTW as part of their backhaul / connectivity is up to them.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

BT Wholesale checker just list the maximum possible FTTP tier/package that could be available to an ISP.

Got it. Thank you. Just spoke to Zen and they do not offer any packages above 900/100.

Does anyone know any providers who do?

Leased Line prices are £378 +VAT p/month for 3 years plus £600 hardware charge.

Many thanks.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Thank you tdw42, that's really interesting. So, can anyone also tell me why the BT Wholesale Speedtest can 'see' the maximum speed of the line (up and down) when the 'real world' speeds are capped?

Just for my own interest.
Many thanks.

What are you defining as the BT Wholesale speedtest here?

Cerberus offer 1000/220 as their FTTP Ultra product: https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broa...

You're better off with bonding two 900Mbps services though unless you desperately need the single thread performance.

Edited by jpm (Fri 10-Feb-23 12:52:13)

This website https://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

I know that, I'm just saying that it's called a BT Wholesale checker not an Openreach checker, so it only shows what is being offered over BT Wholesale, I may be wrong

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

This website https://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

So running a speed test on that page gives you a 200Mbps upload? That's very strange.

Just seen that Cerberus offer a 900/200 package but at nearly £600 installation and £192 p/month.

They must give you a Cisco router or something.

Incredible.

In reply to a post by jpm:

So running a speed test on that page gives you a 200Mbps upload? That's very strange.

Correct.

Edited by mlpstudios (Fri 10-Feb-23 13:03:45)

You're better off with bonding two 900Mbps services though unless you desperately need the single thread performance.

Thank you. I will look into this.

In reply to a post by jpm:

So running a speed test on that page gives you a 200Mbps upload? That's very strange.

For clarification

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8le8e4yra8kumq3/BT%20Whole...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aofosw64d9utwxc/Ookla%20Sp...

Speedtest screenshots

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Just seen that Cerberus offer a 900/200 package but at nearly £600 installation and £192 p/month.

They must give you a Cisco router or something.

Incredible.

...and that's why practically no one orders it.

Cerberus don't supply any CPE or routers generally for any of their FTTP connections.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

In reply to a post by jpm:

So running a speed test on that page gives you a 200Mbps upload? That's very strange.

For clarification

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8le8e4yra8kumq3/BT%20Whole...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aofosw64d9utwxc/Ookla%20Sp...

Speedtest screenshots

Trust the Ookla test. The BTW test is smoking crack.

In reply to a post by Grimers:

I know that, I'm just saying that it's called a BT Wholesale checker not an Openreach checker, so it only shows what is being offered over BT Wholesale, I may be wrong

The BTW checker has always historically shown the maximum the circuit can support.

Back to your point, the fact is all ISPs that I'm aware of (and there aren't that many as they are typically the niche small business-focussed providers like Cerberus) that offer a 220 Mbps upload tier will be doing so on BTW backhaul.

If anyone knows of any ISPs that offer 1000/220 on anything other than BTW backhaul I'd be interested to hear.

Sheesh!

Thanks for the clarification, that is interesting to know.

I believe mine was a Sumitomo … the picture linked was the closest I could find after a brief search .

In reply to a post by jpm:

You're better off with bonding two 900Mbps services though unless you desperately need the single thread performance.

Would any of you be able to give me an overview of what I would need to achieve this?

My guess: A 4-port ONT, a 2.5Gbps capable router, one that can also bond or (load balance?) two FTTP lines. Possibly a 2.5Gbps switch as well to distribute the speeds to compatible devices. I know my 2018 Mac Mini has a 10Gb Ethernet port.

Can standard Cat5e handle the higher transfer rate? I have a fairly big site here so perhaps Cat6 would be more suitable.

Many thanks.

You need a 4 port ont from Openreach to get their records updated to show you have a 4 port ONT.
Then you need to replace it with your own as Openreach's 4 port ONT has a 1Gb optical to ethernet limit.

Then in order to benefit from higher upstream you would need to buy 2 x FTTP lines from a provider that does bonding and supports multi gigabit bonding.
I'm not aware of anyone who does multi gigabit bonding
AAISP do bonding but I don't think their Firebricks will not bond 2 x 1000/115 circuits. Not sure if they have the capacity or will even want to sell 2 gig. Their Ultrafast speeds didn't launch too long ago and are still on test LNS's.

Load balancing will get you double downstream speeds on many devices and apps but upstream would simply have double the available bandwidth split across all devices, with not a single thing being able to go over 115Mb/s.

It's an expensive route to go down for a little bit more upstream bandwidth.

Probably cheaper in the long run just paying the hefty install fee and getting the 1000/220 package from someone who sells it. Saves paying a fortune for bonding and additional kit for very little benefit, even if you can find a provider who offers it.

Edit: or reactivate the leased line. Since it's already installed you might be able to get a decent deal.

Openreach want to make it as difficult as possible and as expensive as possible for you to get high upstream over FTTP.
They make a lot of money from their leased lines and don't want to lose that revenue.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 13-Feb-23 10:29:27)

Hi,

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You need a 4 port ont from Openreach to get their records updated to show you have a 4 port ONT.
Then you need to replace it with your own as Openreach's 4 port ONT has a 1Gb optical to ethernet limit.

[...]

If you just want the increased upload you don't need this step, but you won't exceed 1Gbit/sec download without it.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

Hi,

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You need a 4 port ont from Openreach to get their records updated to show you have a 4 port ONT.
Then you need to replace it with your own as Openreach's 4 port ONT has a 1Gb optical to ethernet limit.

[...]

If you just want the increased upload you don't need this step, but you won't exceed 1Gbit/sec download without it.

Although not strictly necessary it would be very advisable.

It's not just a "cap" of 1Gb/s. Packets will randomly start getting dropped if that limit is reached which would make most applications unusable.
It would also be a huge waste of cash paying for 2 Gb/s and having to permanently cap that in half.

I wouldn't recommend running 2 gigabit services on a standard Openreach 4 port ONT.

Thanks for your input. Very interesting.

I will keep hunting for a 1000/220 provider and look at leased lines again but having talked to giganet(?) recently they couldn’t care less that we already have a leased line here. They were adamant they would need to install their own service.

Could try BtNet again once the service expires of course and see if there’s a deal to be made.

There's not really any saving to be had on a leased line with the fibres in place, it means you won't pay ECCs but you'll still pay the standard EAD install charge (though your provider may decide to waive this if you're signing a 3-year term).

You won't get a gig symmetrical for much under £350+VAT, so take that into account.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Thanks for your input. Very interesting.

I will keep hunting for a 1000/220 provider and look at leased lines again but having talked to giganet(?) recently they couldn’t care less that we already have a leased line here. They were adamant they would need to install their own service.

Could try BtNet again once the service expires of course and see if there’s a deal to be made.

I think @jpm mentioned Cerberus previously. They are a good provider (quite a few of us on here have been through FTTPoD with them) and the cost really “is what it is” unfortunately. I don’t think you’ll get much better due to the underlying BTW and Openreach charges for this tier.

Alternatively given the caveats mentioned - it may be worth exploring a bonded 1000/115 service with them also. It would be bespoke so I’d imagine not cheap either, but the ongoing costs could potentially be less than a single 1000/220 service.

Otherwise you’re back in EAD/leased line territory, but you may be able to shave a few quid off a lower bounded service that gives you the upload that you need, rather than a gig on gig service.

for sanity, i'd go with two 1gb ONTs, an old computer with a x4 2.5gb pcie network card, that way you can do your own routing and load balancing.

Since the whole 4 port ont has 1gb restrictions on the lan side going 2x 1 port onts at this stage makes sense.

Thank you! This is an interesting solution.

Anything to be able to trick the system to get the speeds that are actually available.

In reply to a post by mlpstudios:

Thank you! This is an interesting solution.

Anything to be able to trick the system to get the speeds that are actually available.

When you order a 2nd FTTP line you don't get to choose whether Openreach install a 2nd 1 port ONT or if they swap your existing ONT with a 4 port version.

Installing a 2nd 1 port ONT requires another drop cable, uses another CBT port and takes up 1 more split on the splitter.
The system is supposed to be designed to automatically order a 4 port ONT rather than a 2nd 1 port ONT.

Many Openreach deployments simply don't have enough capacity for a 2nd ONT, such as 8 homes served by a 8 port CBT, or if there are already 30 homes on the PON (2 are kept as spares).

4 port GPON ONTs without the bandwidth bottleneck of the Openreach ONT's are pretty cheap.

What do you mean by tricking the system?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Alternatively given the caveats mentioned - it may be worth exploring a bonded 1000/115 service with them also. It would be bespoke so I’d imagine not cheap either, but the ongoing costs could potentially be less than a single 1000/220 service.

Their website doesn't even offer bonded FTTP.
It only suggests they sell bonded ADSL or bonded SOGEA.

Given the pricing of their 2x and 4x bonded SOGEA I would be surprised if a bonded 1000/115 service worked out cheaper than just buying the 1000/220 package from them.

2x bonded SOGEA:
£180.00 Activation
£108.00 Monthly Service Rental
£30.00 Monthly Router Kit Rental

4x bonded SOGEA
£360.00 Activation
£216.00 Monthly Service Rental
£36.00 Monthly Router Kit Rental

FTTP Ultra 1000/220
£594.00 Installation
£192.00 Monthly

I just don't think they offer bonded FTTP. It isn't needed because you can just go up a tier unlike with DSL.
Their standard bonding kit is unlikely to support dual gigabit

j0hn83

Apologies, I didn't really mean anything by 'tricking the system' it was a poor way to express my frustration at companies who deliberately price out a service to make a consumer move to higher payment tier when that infrastructure is clearly in place and doesn't 'cost' any more to activate.

That is, to be fair, every single FTTP ISP in the world, most car companies, pay TV operators, anybody that makes and sells software etc.