What's going to happen to all those Fibre Cabinets?

... thinking ahead a few years.

Not just the cabinets but the equipment and associated fibre to the exchange?
And the PCP?

Will we be left with concrete plinths all over the place?

Can the cabinets be repurposed for direct point to point fibre connections? (i.e. replace the copper with fibre)

In terms of the cabinets themselves, I would fully expect OR to remove them as soon as all copper/FTTC connections from them are ceased. Not least because the FTTC cabs will be costing them money to run in terms of power.

As for the plinths, I can't say for certain but I do know that where they have removed old phone boxes they have removed the concrete standing for them so one would hope they would do the same for cabinets.

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

Can the cabinets be repurposed for direct point to point fibre connections? (i.e. replace the copper with fibre)

That’s not really the design / deployment model that Openreach have adopted for FTTP (with very rare exception in some far flung rural areas with subtended headend). All active equipment is otherwise kept at the BT exchange. The rest of the network is passive and joints including aggregation nodes, splitter nodes and track nodes are all either in chambers or on poles. Never in cabs.

with very rare exception in some far flung rural areas with subtended headend

Quite a few in urban areas too, to save on spine fibres

Historically openreach have been quite slow to remove unused cabinets. Maybe if there is a mass decommissioning there may be more incentive, especially if local authorities are involved. Otherwise I'd expect them to be around for sometime yet.

There's probably at least another decade of them being actively used as they need to stay in place until the last customer has moved off. I would expect someone to eye up the concrete base with power and ducting in place for small cellular sites.

The nearest cabinet to us was removed decades ago, a concrete plinth has been there ever since, at a guess the removal (or mod) of any plinth might depend on a risk assessment, i.e. is it a trip hazard.

Cabinets removed, plinths used to build memorials to the copper network to help Fibrebubble through his bereavement. 😉

Plinths used to mount the Coppersaurus:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/2018-...

Local to me they moved the copper cabinet about 10 years ago, the old cabinet was removed and pavement made good.

And around here we also had the defunct Digital region cabinets, these were all removed after a while. I don’t know if that was the council pushing the receiver to remove them. Here you can still see the patch in the pavement between the Openreach cabinets where it used to be.

I’m interested to see what happens with the cabinets. Prior to becoming a Fibre First area we had two copper cabinets (one on main road) and three fibre cabinets next to the one on the side road (2x288 line and 1x384 line). The level of FTTP take up now means soon they could groom it back to fewer cabinets.

I think we've still got rusting old cast iron Rediffusion or British Relay (unsure which) cabinets around the place here

Openreach will not removed all FTTC cabinets because the customers might want to stay on FTTC 40/10 than FTTP 1000/220.

Edited by adslmax (Mon 09-Jan-23 17:12:00)

But when the copper network is retired, their choice will be between FTTP 40/10 and no service.

Personally I expect the power to be disconnected from the FTTC cabinets (as this provides an immediate cost saving); and then both FTTC and PCP cabs to be left to rust for some years, until the council declares them a safety hazard.

But for most parts of the country, this is many years down the road, because it will require *100%* FTTP coverage in that cabinet footprint.

I also think chances of Openreach doing 'copper recovery' are low. There would be too much risk of damaging fibre cables by pulling out thick copper cables from congested and silted ducts. Overhead copper though? Sure.

In reply to a post by jpm:

There's probably at least another decade of them being actively used as they need to stay in place until the last customer has moved off. I would expect someone to eye up the concrete base with power and ducting in place for small cellular sites.

That makes a lot of sense for 5G micro cells which the mobile operators are going to need a shed load of.

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

That makes a lot of sense for 5G micro cells which the mobile operators are going to need a shed load of.

Maybe, maybe not. High frequency is where you may need micro cells for capacity, and if the majority of the UK can get 1 Gbps or faster broadband, then the need for high field strength inside a building falls. 5G is already running on the 700 MHz spectrum recently auctioned, so its not all doom

If OR don't do the copper recovery the local gangs will do it for them with a lot more damage! There are still enough dodgy scrap merchants out there who will give them good money for the cables.

I can see all the e sides ( Cab to exchange) being recovered fairly quickly. Distribution cables to DPs are a lot smaller and not worth as much and the ducts tend to be smaller and more blockages increasing the risk to other cables.

The actual copper Cab shells, where cast iron, are also worth recovering. The fibre cabs will have all their electronics stripped out for specialist contractors to recover the rare earths and precious metal content. BT have been doing this for years with old equipment, I first came across it in 1983 when a several scrappies had a bidding war to remove an old telex exchange. The winning bidder cleared the whole area in 2 weeks even cleaning years of muck off the floor in the hope of getting other contracts. Cut it up into chunks and sent it down a chute to a stream of skips and off to his yard. Ended up with an argument with the tax man over the value he extracted.

Took part in several similar ventures over the years recovering value from old equipment every time scrap prices went up..

In reply to a post by jpm:

There's probably at least another decade of them being actively used as they need to stay in place until the last customer has moved off. I would expect someone to eye up the concrete base with power and ducting in place for small cellular sites.

Why? isn't FTTH enough? 5g may not be environmentally sound, never mind adding yet more EMF some of us don't want near us

In reply to a post by jpm:

There's probably at least another decade of them being actively used as they need to stay in place until the last customer has moved off. I would expect someone to eye up the concrete base with power and ducting in place for small cellular sites.

Could be longer than that in some places.

I’m not sure there’s that much precious metal in some of the modern gear. The older stuff definitely.

The end will be nigh when they break and can’t fix them / get parts at decent prices. Much like our present day situation with PSTN gear…

Oh hello Huawei! Yes that’s right we told you to [expletive beginning with F] right off in 2020…but we just need a few container loads of line cards and power supplies 😃

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 09-Jan-23 21:47:55)

It is, as far as I know being planned by an internal BT team. The estimated value of the recovered copper does exceed the cost of the project and as you say the cost of third party damage would be massive which BT needs to ensure does not happen.


I remember the stories from 10 years back where the scrap copper was valued at £50Bn by various journalists - way out but the value is still high.


edit to add:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/sep/23/bt-...

Edited by MHC (Tue 10-Jan-23 08:22:00)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The end will be nigh when they break and can’t fix them / get parts at decent prices. Much like our present day situation with PSTN gear…

Oh hello Huawei! Yes that’s right we told you to [expletive beginning with F] right off in 2020…but we just need a few container loads of line cards and power supplies 😃

I suppose it depends on how fast they can get people off the copper, but remember some people will be able to stay on copper for various reasons, even in a stop sell area. Not everyone has the money to buy new stuff like alarms.

Parts will be the problem.

One thing about not having cabinets, we will not get cars heading for the one a few roads down from me instead they will head for the poor person's garden behind it.

So openreach fibre don't use any cabinets at all then? Zzoomm seems to use cabinets, they have a large one close to the exchange and where I cycle to work, when I say close to the exchange, it is about 500 meters as the crow flies and it is pretty noisy. There is a small one not far from me and I have seen these small one dotted around a few places.

I don't think someone having an alarm is going to stop BT turning off copper - they will either lose their alarm monitoring or need to get an alternative that doesn't require a phone line, it isn't BT's responsibility.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I don't think someone having an alarm is going to stop BT turning off copper - they will either lose their alarm monitoring or need to get an alternative that doesn't require a phone line, it isn't BT's responsibility.

TBH if someone has an incompatible monitored alarm it should be down to the alarm supplier to provide a solution.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

So openreach fibre don't use any cabinets at all then?

Correct.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Zzoomm seems to use cabinets

Correct, many altnets do. Some are passive cabinets (unpowered, contain only splitters and patching), and some are active (powered), depending on their network design.

I think the bigger concern is going to be the effort required to get to 100% of properties in an area. We recently got OR FTTP in our private courtyard (1980's build) thanks to it having serviceable ducts. My mum 's courtyard is just a few doors down, is maybe 20 years older with buried cables and they pretty much had a look round and turned round with a big "nope"! So I'll be interested to see what the plan is for their connectivity over the next decade.

Pheasant

Each generation has less precious metals but the recyclers get better at recovering them and the prices keep going up. They are much more a secondary to the rare earths now which can be more 'precious'. Scale also has an effect so I expect recoveries to go in batches. In the early 2000s BT swamped the scrap recycling market and had to smooth the programme while new robotic capacity was built as it was very early in the recycle electronics era, but I don't expect that to happen again.

Where the boards are all the same a robot does the disassembly sorting all the components into bins of the same bits, making the whole recycling process very efficient. Jumbled electronics in a recycling centre is a vastly different (messy/costly) process that is rarely cost positive.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I don't think someone having an alarm is going to stop BT turning off copper - they will either lose their alarm monitoring or need to get an alternative that doesn't require a phone line, it isn't BT's responsibility.

From what I was reading there are special circumstances where people will be able to stay on FTTC and one of them was maybe for alarms, I don't mean burglar alarms, I mean alarms that send messages if someone falls

I think you've read something that was incorrect. Openreach aren't going to maintain a PSTN for a handful of people who's care alarm providers haven't updated their services.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Correct.

I suppose they don't really need to as they have the exchange, I know Fibre can a fair distance without any amplification, but I wonder if there is some loss, certainly if they use splitters. But I presume they know what they are doing

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Correct, many altnets do. Some are passive cabinets (unpowered, contain only splitters and patching), and some are active (powered), depending on their network design.

The large on by the exchange is certainly not passive, even cycling past it, I can hear the noise of the fan, the small ones dotted around I presume are passive.
i know they did annoy someone months ago by putting one of their cabinets in a place where someone was going to make a driveway. Zzoomm have made a few enemies in the city since they started digging up the roads.

But the Zzoomm cabinets are certainly smaller than the Openreach ones we have.

The openreach cabinets that my broadband is connected too, when that does go I think it i a mast may be put in its place as it is in a good place for a mast. But i do feel it will be years before it happens, We are not a stop sell for FTTC yet, and I think it will be another year if not longer before the 75% of the city is covered.

In reply to a post by jimbof:

I think the bigger concern is going to be the effort required to get to 100% of properties in an area. We recently got OR FTTP in our private courtyard (1980's build) thanks to it having serviceable ducts. My mum 's courtyard is just a few doors down, is maybe 20 years older with buried cables and they pretty much had a look round and turned round with a big "nope"! So I'll be interested to see what the plan is for their connectivity over the next decade.

Strange how that happens, that may happen around here, there is some very old houses around, and I wonder what any ducts are like there.
I think they may have problems in some parts on the other side of the city, with the river flooding the road, i bet some of the ducts are in a bad state.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

From what I was reading there are special circumstances where people will be able to stay on FTTC and one of them was maybe for alarms, I don't mean burglar alarms, I mean alarms that send messages if someone falls

There are no special circumstances. BT Retail paused the rollout of digital voice for a while; they have unpaused it now.

In any case, whatever you've read will have been about removal of the PSTN (that is, analogue voice), not about removal of copper.

The PSTN *is* being shut down, which will be 100% complete by December 2025. Note that you will be unable to order or renew an analogue voice line anywhere in the country from September 2023 (yes, this year).

Anyone who has a personal alarm that relies on the PSTN will have to have it upgraded to a suitable technology in time. It is the responsibility of the providers of the alarm services to do this.

Copper *data* lines (i.e. FTTC, and even ADSL where FTTC is not available) will remain in some form for a good few years yet; but in a stop-sell area, they will only be available for those properties where FTTP is not available.

Does FTTC have to have an associated exchange line card?

I have an FTTC line but my domestic 'land line' is provided by VOIP.

Can we have a situation where the PSTN is closed but FTTC continues for a few years?

(I need to put a meter across the pair to check if I still have -50V!)

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

Does FTTC have to have an associated exchange line card?

The connection back from the FTTC cabinet to the exchange is a fibre (obviously!)

This terminates in a piece of equipment called an Optical Line Termination (OLT).

The copper cables from the FTTC cabinet to PCP cabinet to exchange (known as "E-side" for Exchange-side) will no longer be used, once the PSTN is gone. (*)

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

I have an FTTC line but my domestic 'land line' is provided by VOIP.

Can we have a situation where the PSTN is closed but FTTC continues for a few years?

Yes. You will be migrated to what most providers call "digital voice": the line voltage / ringing voltage / dialtone will come from a port on your router, and that's where you plug your phone in.

The 50V from the exchange will vanish. Hence if you want to have phone service during a power cut, you'll need your own local UPS.

(*) I am still unclear what happens for providers like Talktalk, who use LLU and have their own MSANs in the exchange which generate dialtone - that is, for how long after PSTN switchoff they will be allowed to continue to provide exchange-based LLU services. I suspect it will be until the subscriber volumes are so low that they're uneconomic.

Yes, that's exactly what is going to happen. PSTN is closing down, copper access is not.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

From what I was reading there are special circumstances where people will be able to stay on FTTC and one of them was maybe for alarms, I don't mean burglar alarms, I mean alarms that send messages if someone falls

If I had one of these fall alarm boxes (and that isn't such an unlikely prospect in my case), and it was still connecting via some copper service like FTTC or ADSL, then I would be agitating to get it moved onto something more reliable like fibre or xG asap. I had enough trouble with my copper line over the years never to want to trust it with anything critical.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There are no special circumstances. BT Retail paused the rollout of digital voice for a while; they have unpaused it now.

In any case, whatever you've read will have been about removal of the PSTN (that is, analogue voice), not about removal of copper.

The PSTN *is* being shut down, which will be 100% complete by December 2025. Note that you will be unable to order or renew an analogue voice line anywhere in the country from September 2023 (yes, this year).

Anyone who has a personal alarm that relies on the PSTN will have to have it upgraded to a suitable technology in time. It is the responsibility of the providers of the alarm services to do this.

Copper *data* lines (i.e. FTTC, and even ADSL where FTTC is not available) will remain in some form for a good few years yet; but in a stop-sell area, they will only be available for those properties where FTTP is not available.

From open reach site.

If you have a good reason not to make the move - there may be special exceptions such as if you're a vulnerable customer or have critical equipment that might not work.


Not all alarms are done by companies, there are some people who have their own installed, and they may not be able to afford to update them.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

If I had one of these fall alarm boxes (and that isn't such an unlikely prospect in my case), and it was still connecting via some copper service like FTTC or ADSL, then I would be agitating to get it moved onto something more reliable like fibre or xG asap. I had enough trouble with my copper line over the years never to want to trust it with anything critical.

Not everyone, in fact there are a lot of people who don't have a problem with their copper lines, also some people with these alarms by them outright, and can't afford to update them

I still think the normal phone line is more reliable for voice, so many times when listening to the radio and people are using some sort of Voip or something like Skype/zoom and the quality of the call is awful, sometimes it sounds like they are underwater.
I use discord, most of the time, but even that can drop out now and again, so can skype and Facebook Messenger. Not that I use Facebook Messenger for voice that often.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

From open reach site.

If you have a good reason not to make the move - there may be special exceptions such as if you're a vulnerable customer or have critical equipment that might not work.

You carefully omitted the rest of that paragraph:

If you think this applies to you, you should check with your service provider to check what's the best option for you.

That is: it's up to the service provider to find a solution for the customer. The customer themselves cannot make any request to Openreach.

If the customer calls the SP, and the SP then pleads with Openreach, the SP could make a special request for the copper service to remain connected in an FTTP area.

However, when talking about data, there is no service that runs on FTTC that could not run on FTTP. Therefore, this is fundamentally about the PSTN switch-off, i.e. the analogue to digital voice transition.

The service provider certainly won't be able to ask for the PSTN to remain connected beyond Dec 2025, because the exchange equipment will have been powered off and decommissioned.

This is about forcing the SP's to deal with vulnerable customers and find a solution that works for them - whether that be testing that their existing equipment works with digital voice, or dealing with the equipment providers to get it upgraded, or ensuring emergency calls can be made during power cuts. That solution must be in place before Dec 2025 - period.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

(*) I am still unclear what happens for providers like Talktalk, who use LLU and have their own MSANs in the exchange which generate dialtone - that is, for how long after PSTN switchoff they will be allowed to continue to provide exchange-based LLU services. I suspect it will be until the subscriber volumes are so low that they're uneconomic.

They could do what Sky do and provide a router that has a ATA built-in that way they don't require the MSAN to produce the dial tone.

That's not what I'm asking. Of course they *could* switch to digital voice - but they don't have a digital voice router yet AFAIK.

What I'm asking is: what happens if they choose to continue to provide exchange-based analogue voice from their MSANs with LLU. So far, I haven't seen mention of LLU specifically in regards to copper stop-sell.

Hi,

You need to distinguish between the WLR withdrawal programme and the copper stop sell programme.

WLR withdrawal affects WLR3 (Analogue, ISDN2 and ISDN30) and LLU SMPF (plus some others we don't care about here). It doesn't affect LLU MPF (not shared) which would remain available.

Copper stop sell prevents the installation of any fresh copper services, including LLU MPF so CPs with their own dial tone generating equipment effectively have a fixed and reducing customer base in copper stop sell areas.

At some point Openreach will withdraw LLU MPF in copper stop sell areas but I suspect the LLU CPs will probably withdraw the service before Openreach do that as it won't be cost effective to maintain it (certainly in non-handover exchanges which CPs will be trying to exit in any event).

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

From open reach site.

If you have a good reason not to make the move - there may be special exceptions such as if you're a vulnerable customer or have critical equipment that might not work.


Not all alarms are done by companies, there are some people who have their own installed, and they may not be able to afford to update them.

You're reading A and taking it as X.

That doesn't say anything about them keeping PSTN open for those special circumstances.
It just advises they contact their provider. The provider will take through the options available to them.

There will be no exceptions. PSTN is closing in 2025. The stop sell starts nationality in 2023.

They can't afford to keep PSTN running with the declining revenue and ageing equipment. It's happening.

Anyone with a personal alarm they installed themselves is going to have to seek help. Older alarms will not be able to phone home once PSTN is closed. It's that black and white.

Edited by j0hn83 (Wed 11-Jan-23 12:21:54)

In reply to a post by Dassa:

Hi,

You need to distinguish between the WLR withdrawal programme and the copper stop sell programme.

WLR withdrawal affects WLR3 (Analogue, ISDN2 and ISDN30) and LLU SMPF (plus some others we don't care about here). It doesn't affect LLU MPF (not shared) which would remain available.

Copper stop sell prevents the installation of any fresh copper services, including LLU MPF so CPs with their own dial tone generating equipment effectively have a fixed and reducing customer base in copper stop sell areas.

At some point Openreach will withdraw LLU MPF in copper stop sell areas but I suspect the LLU CPs will probably withdraw the service before Openreach do that as it won't be cost effective to maintain it (certainly in non-handover exchanges which CPs will be trying to exit in any event).

I don't believe TalkTalk have been committal or even public on the medium/longer term plans to withdraw their LLU equipment in exchanges...

Anyone here from TalkTalk....😂

We know BT Wholesale will be allowed to keep their ADSL equipment in exchanges, at least in those areas where SOTAP is required - and Openreach can't treat any other provider differently.

Therefore, I think LLU MPF could remain for quite a long time.

Talktalk will want to remove their MSANs when the number of users is so low that the ongoing running cost isn't justified by the number of straggler users. In effect, they'll have their own PSTN+ADSL switch-off problem to contend with. It doesn't have to synchronize with the Dec 2025 switch-off of the Openreach PSTN - but there might be benefits in doing so, as they'd get shared messaging, and could in effect "shift the blame" onto Openreach.

But they'd have to have their digital voice replacement services ready in time.

I'd imagine it's the similar sorts of cost pressures that BT face with keeping PSTN....diminishing user base, and call volumes, equipment that is getting (relatively) more expensive to service, maintain especially on a per user basis, and get parts for. Perhaps to a lesser degree as it's newer. But difficult to justify when...

VoIP/Digital Voice is dirt cheap in comparison, but you're right they need a stable platform to migrate towards first.

It's TalkTalk, they will probably send people an email letting them know they're getting an ATA in the post and that will be it.

Of course all these providers are in the better position of having never sold a phone line without broadband, so the switchover is not as severe as what BT or basic WLR3 resellers are going to have to do.

It's TalkTalk, they will probably send people an email letting them know they're getting pop an ATA in the post and that will be it. Customer Service will be clueless. As usual.

There fixed it for you 👍😎

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

If I had one of these fall alarm boxes (and that isn't such an unlikely prospect in my case), and it was still connecting via some copper service like FTTC or ADSL, then I would be agitating to get it moved onto something more reliable like fibre or xG asap. I had enough trouble with my copper line over the years never to want to trust it with anything critical.

Not everyone, in fact there are a lot of people who don't have a problem with their copper lines, also some people with these alarms by them outright, and can't afford to update them

I still think the normal phone line is more reliable for voice, so many times when listening to the radio and people are using some sort of Voip or something like Skype/zoom and the quality of the call is awful, sometimes it sounds like they are underwater.
I use discord, most of the time, but even that can drop out now and again, so can skype and Facebook Messenger. Not that I use Facebook Messenger for voice that often.

I've posted before on the rubbish quality of calls on our copper line, when first trying Sipgate on our FTTP gf's sister said we sounded like daleks, so was a bit [censored], but then gf started calling home to Sipgate number and it worked perfectly, we subsequently found out when phoning gf's sister from mobile it was her phoneline which was causing the problem, not VoIP.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I'd imagine it's the similar sorts of cost pressures that BT face with keeping PSTN....diminishing user base, and call volumes, equipment that is getting (relatively) more expensive to service, maintain especially on a per user basis, and get parts for. Perhaps to a lesser degree as it's newer. But difficult to justify when...

VoIP/Digital Voice is dirt cheap in comparison, but you're right they need a stable platform to migrate towards first.

Since the demise (or at least selling to new customers) of Sipgate basic I've not found a VoIP provider that comes anywhere near the price of TalkTalk's anytime package on copper.

I have a strong suspicion that LLU CPs will want to avoid being the place to go for an analogue line when Openreach stop providing them - I doubt they want to be in that business as it would set them up for their own big analogue switch off, upsetting those who had moved to them for exactly that reason.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

You carefully omitted the rest of that paragraph:

If you think this applies to you, you should check with your service provider to check what's the best option for you.

That is: it's up to the service provider to find a solution for the customer. The customer themselves cannot make any request to Openreach.

If the customer calls the SP, and the SP then pleads with Openreach, the SP could make a special request for the copper service to remain connected in an FTTP area.

However, when talking about data, there is no service that runs on FTTC that could not run on FTTP. Therefore, this is fundamentally about the PSTN switch-off, i.e. the analogue to digital voice transition.

The service provider certainly won't be able to ask for the PSTN to remain connected beyond Dec 2025, because the exchange equipment will have been powered off and decommissioned.

This is about forcing the SP's to deal with vulnerable customers and find a solution that works for them - whether that be testing that their existing equipment works with digital voice, or dealing with the equipment providers to get it upgraded, or ensuring emergency calls can be made during power cuts. That solution must be in place before Dec 2025 - period.

I did not carefully omit the rest of that paragraph, I did not think it was relevant, but looking back at it, I now realise it was.
So openreach is saying we are doing this, stuff people, and we let the providers sort it out, Just about sums up openreach and the useless Ofcom.

Thankfully, it is stop sell only at the moment, so the person I know of that will have problems will just to renew their contract for another 24 months, at least that will give them some time to get things sorted.


This is what I am thinking of doing myself, after March I will look at what is available, but if plusnet offers me a good deal on what i have now I will put in for another 18 month contract

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

This is what I am thinking of doing myself, after March I will look at what is available, but if plusnet offers me a good deal on what i have now I will put in for another 18 month contract

Sadly, this is just pushing the inevitable down the road and trying to prove a point to Openreach and ISP's, you have already stated you feel like you're being press-ganged into moving to full fibre (because of a couple of flyers/letters) which you have already stated you rebel against whenever it happens.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

the person I know of that will have problems will just to renew their contract for another 24 months, at least that will give them some time to get things sorted.

You have known for a long time this is happening so why haven't you educated or even helped the person you know rather than getting them to use the same failed approach as you?

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

So openreach is saying we are doing this, stuff people, and we let the providers sort it out, Just about sums up openreach and the useless Ofcom.

It was consulted on for nearly a decade. The PSTN closure date was announced a few years ago.
I'm not sure what else they can do?

They can't please everyone. They can't run a declining service forever just because a few people have old kit.

Feels like the people upset by this would also have been the type to complain when the law changed to mandate that all electrical devices were to be supplied with a plug attached, because it was forcing people who still had round pin sockets to pay for a plug they weren't going to use.

As you said, it will have been a process that's over a decade old by the time PSTN is finally withdrawn, if people's ISPs and care alarm providers have done nothing for eight of those years that is their fault, and that's where consumer complaints should be directed.

It’s also a global phenomenon.

Trouble is the Little Britain’s on here can’t see past their proverbials. Don’t get out much I suspect.

In reply to a post by dect:

the person I know of that will have problems will just to renew their contract for another 24 months, at least that will give them some time to get things sorted.

Which raises another interesting point.
I assume that agreeing to a new contract could mean that the service that is required is no longer available for 'new contracts'.

I expect you could continue on a rolling contract with the existing services which would, I expect, then be subject to regular price hikes.

This is similar to Windows upgrades and the OEMs having to update their drivers to make their own equipment work.

"Educate"

Time for the popcorn again.

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

I assume that agreeing to a new contract could mean that the service that is required is no longer available for 'new contracts'.

Yes, there's a "stop sell" for PSTN, which kicks in nationally in September this year.

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

I expect you could continue on a rolling contract with the existing services which would, I expect, then be subject to regular price hikes.

Until the service is turned off, yes - which is less than 3 years from now.

Before then, expect to be spammed by your service provider that your service is being changed/upgraded. They'll likely ship you a free new router (but maybe only if you sign a new contract). For most people this is a simple self-install job: replace old router with new, plug existing phone into router - apart from some wrinkles around internal extension wiring.

For landline-only services, the biggest seller of those is BT, and they'll have the biggest headaches. These include the most vulnerable and least technical customers. I expect there will be an engineer visit to change the faceplate/master socket, install router, and sort out extension wiring.

In reply to a post by dect:

Sadly, this is just pushing the inevitable down the road and trying to prove a point to Openreach and ISP's, you have already stated you feel like you're being press-ganged into moving to full fibre (because of a couple of flyers/letters) which you have already stated you rebel against whenever it happens.

What I feel have nothing to do with it, It will just give him more time to sort something out that is not going to cost a fortune.

It is not just about a couple of letters and flyers, had another one today, but this was from Zzoomm, must have had one every week so far since they activated up here. This one saying the last chance to get 6 months for free. I doubt it very much, give it a few weeks and they bring on some other offer.
Anyway, we are being press-ganged into many things and while at the moment I have had one leaflet from a provider using Openreach FTTp network, give it a few more weeks i expect there will be more or plusnet will start bugging me, certainly as I get towards the end of my contract.
While I still have six months on my contract I have been looking at different providers to see what they offer and a lot of them offer FTTP as the first choice and thyey either hide FTTC or don't offer it at all, apart from Talk talk who according to them, we don't have FTTp here and now broadband as they don't do FTTP

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

You have known for a long time this is happening so why haven't you educated or even helped the person you know rather than getting them to use the same failed approach as you?

I have heard it was going to happen a few years ago, but I never thought it would, well not when they said it would happen, after all this is the UK after all, we are never on time for anything, just look at the train service in this country
the problem is, many people don't know because it has not been made clear, when digital switchover happened that was made clear, even if the digital terrestrial service is a load of rubbish, people were told about it a few years before it happened, and many people had gone digital anyway due to On digital/ITV digital and to a lesser extent top up TV, there was also some advantage for going digital in having more channels, even if most of them was and still is rubbish to be honest.

A few people I chat to don't see any advantage in this digital voice, and some don't even see any advantage in FTTP to them either.

As for helping out this person above, he is nearly 60 miles away, not much I can do.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

It was consulted on for nearly a decade. The PSTN closure date was announced a few years ago.
I'm not sure what else they can do?


They can't please everyone. They can't run a declining service forever just because a few people have old kit.

Consulted? That is a laugh, you mean they made up their mind and not told anyone, because very few people know about it.
Even Sky don't tell their customers that they have to plug their phone into the router, they leave them to find out when their phone don't work and then they have to make a call to sky customer service.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

I have a strong suspicion that LLU CPs will want to avoid being the place to go for an analogue line when Openreach stop providing them - I doubt they want to be in that business as it would set them up for their own big analogue switch off, upsetting those who had moved to them for exactly that reason.

Can't see that happening en masse tbh.

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I'd imagine it's the similar sorts of cost pressures that BT face with keeping PSTN....diminishing user base, and call volumes, equipment that is getting (relatively) more expensive to service, maintain especially on a per user basis, and get parts for. Perhaps to a lesser degree as it's newer. But difficult to justify when...

VoIP/Digital Voice is dirt cheap in comparison, but you're right they need a stable platform to migrate towards first.

Since the demise (or at least selling to new customers) of Sipgate basic I've not found a VoIP provider that comes anywhere near the price of TalkTalk's anytime package on copper.

As a TTB customer, honestly on pain of death would I voluntarily move my VoIP service to theirs. YMMV

In reply to a post by jpm:

Feels like the people upset by this would also have been the type to complain when the law changed to mandate that all electrical devices were to be supplied with a plug attached, because it was forcing people who still had round pin sockets to pay for a plug they weren't going to use.

That law was for safety as a lot of people could not wire a plug correctly, you would not believe some of the wiring I have seen in plugs, what openreach is doing is to make more money

As you said, it will have been a process that's over a decade old by the time PSTN is finally withdrawn, if people's ISPs and care alarm providers have done nothing for eight of those years that is their fault, and that's where consumer complaints should be directed.

The problem is, unless people visit sites like this, they don't know about it , this is the problem, people should have been informed, Openreach is a waste of space and so is Ofcom, all they are worried about is how much money their shareholders are going to make

Some people with care alarms paid for them out of their own money they don't have a supplier, but not Openreach problem is it. Typical U.K

In reply to a post by broadband66:

This is similar to Windows upgrades and the OEMs having to update their drivers to make their own equipment work.

nothing like it at all.,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Some people with care alarms paid for them out of their own money they don't have a supplier

I don't think such a thing even exists.

Where do you these care alarms dial? How does the other end of the line know who's alarm has been triggered?

There are alarms you can buy outright. There are alarms you can buy that don't have recurring subscription services.
I'm not aware of any alarm system that exists that doesn't require either a supplier/subscription or some form of registering the system so as to identify yourself.

Alarm systems don't simply dial 999.

That company/supplier is responsible for contacting the customer to inform them their alarm will no longer work and needs upgraded/replaced.

You can get some really cheap and nasty PSTN auto diallers that are triggered by a relay input and then dial a predefined number, wait for it to be answered and then play a recorded message - which some people might use to call their mobile if their burglar alarm is triggered. I'd argue that anybody with the knowledge to go out and DIY such a solution should be more than capable of testing whether it works with something like BT's Digital Voice or Virgin Media's equivalent (it more than likely will work without issue).

If the auto dialler was put in place by an alarm company then as above, they are the people to support it.

Edited by jpm (Thu 12-Jan-23 21:16:44)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I don't think such a thing even exists.

Where do you these care alarms dial? How does the other end of the line know who's alarm has been triggered?

There are alarms you can buy outright. There are alarms you can buy that don't have recurring subscription services.
I'm not aware of any alarm system that exists that doesn't require either a supplier/subscription or some form of registering the system so as to identify yourself.

Alarm systems don't simply dial 999.

That company/supplier is responsible for contacting the customer to inform them their alarm will no longer work and needs upgraded/replaced.

I thought that to be honest, but by all accounts the one he has is for his wife, and it will phone his mobile, I don't know where he got it from, he said he was told it would not work with a Voip system, which is what digital voice is.
There are some available that will connect to a router, but you are looking at about £250 or more.

Openreach consulted the organisation that regulates them (Ofcom) and their customers (BT Wholesale, Talktalk, etc.). Who else would they logically consult?

You are probably upset that Openreach's customer (e.g. BT Wholesale) didn't in turn consult with their customer who in turn didn't consult with their customer who was you but that feels a little tenuous to me, especially since your direct supplier had an alternative way of giving you (what they believe to be, and I accept that that can be debated) the same function.

You could have responded to the Ofcom industry consultation directly if you wanted to but presumably you didn't. It is your responsibility to take an interest in things that are important to you. (See also "we get the politicians we deserve").

I agree, but if I was a LLU CP, I'd make sure that I stopped selling analogue lines at the same time as Openreach, just to ensure that that problem didn't arise.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

Openreach consulted the organisation that regulates them (Ofcom) and their customers (BT Wholesale, Talktalk, etc.). Who else would they logically consult?

You are probably upset that Openreach's customer (e.g. BT Wholesale) didn't in turn consult with their customer who in turn didn't consult with their customer who was you but that feels a little tenuous to me, especially since your direct supplier had an alternative way of giving you (what they believe to be, and I accept that that can be debated) the same function.

You could have responded to the Ofcom industry consultation directly if you wanted to but presumably you didn't. It is your responsibility to take an interest in things that are important to you. (See also "we get the politicians we deserve").

Adrian just hates Openreach. Always has. Always will. the end.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

I agree, but if I was a LLU CP, I'd make sure that I stopped selling analogue lines at the same time as Openreach, just to ensure that that problem didn't arise.

As we know (unlike OR with regulated product) they are under no obligation to forward publish their intentions and plans.

For all we know and given their track record, the news will drop at the eleventh hour. If that.

In reply to a post by Dassa:

It is your responsibility to take an interest in things that are important to you.

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.”

-- Douglas Adams, THGTTG

If it just plugs into a phone socket and dials , why will it not work?

In reply to a post by witchunt:

If it just plugs into a phone socket and dials , why will it not work?

The logical thing for his friend to do would be to simply ask another friend with VOIP/Digital Voice to try it on there service, then they would know and could migrate without fear if it worked. But I suspect Adrian's friend is like him and won't want to try.

When they connect to the monitoring centre they send some identification data in the similar way old dial up modems did and VoIP can't reliably handle it.

My Mum's PSTN care alarm is being replaced next month with a GSM version.

In reply to a post by simon194:

When they connect to the monitoring centre they send some identification data in the similar way old dial up modems did and VoIP can't reliably handle it.

My Mum's PSTN care alarm is being replaced next month with a GSM version.

I think Adrian has already clarified in this instant this is an auto dialler to the husband mobile not to a monitoring centre.

Edited by deleted (Fri 13-Jan-23 10:15:09)

Which is what Sky is doing.

All new FTTC broadband contracts have their internet-based phone service unless you specifically request retaining the landline for monitored alarms or PSTN care alarms.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by simon194:

When they connect to the monitoring centre they send some identification data in the similar way old dial up modems did and VoIP can't reliably handle it.

My Mum's PSTN care alarm is being replaced next month with a GSM version.

I think Adrian has already clarified in this instant this is an auto dialler to the husband mobile not to a monitoring centre.

Must have missed it.

In reply to a post by simon194:

All new FTTC broadband contracts have their internet-based phone service unless you specifically request retaining the landline for monitored alarms or PSTN care alarms.

Yet some Sky customers moving from FTTC to FTTP have retained the PSTN connection. Surely some mistake

Could be old enough that it is still using pulses rather than tones!

Just to keep you up to date. See OFCOMs latest statement
on Fax support no longer being in the USO.

.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Dassa:

It is your responsibility to take an interest in things that are important to you.

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.”

-- Douglas Adams, THGTTG

If it was that obscure then I would have some sympathy.

This is more like MS releasing Windows 11 and people being surprised that there is an end date for support for Windows 10.

Not to mention that the primary purpose of the service (making voice calls) is unaffected .

If we were talking about towels then the equivalent would be an edict that they shall only be available in one of ten defined RAL colours - whilst it is an inconvenience it doesn't affect their primary purpose - you can still suck them.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I thought that to be honest, but by all accounts the one he has is for his wife, and it will phone his mobile, I don't know where he got it from, he said he was told it would not work with a Voip system, which is what digital voice is.
There are some available that will connect to a router, but you are looking at about £250 or more.

Such an auto dialer should work with VOIP. They simply dial number tones which are recognised by all the VOIP systems I've used.
That isn't at all what you mentioned above.

Older care alarms and burglar alarms send additional info over PSTN that doesn't work over VOIP.

There are no "care alarms" (alarms for elderly/vunerable people) that don't have a middle man/call centre that can contact the customer to tell them if their alarm needs updated.

It's a non issue.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I'd imagine it's the similar sorts of cost pressures that BT face with keeping PSTN....diminishing user base, and call volumes, equipment that is getting (relatively) more expensive to service, maintain especially on a per user basis, and get parts for. Perhaps to a lesser degree as it's newer. But difficult to justify when...

VoIP/Digital Voice is dirt cheap in comparison, but you're right they need a stable platform to migrate towards first.

Since the demise (or at least selling to new customers) of Sipgate basic I've not found a VoIP provider that comes anywhere near the price of TalkTalk's anytime package on copper.

As a TTB customer, honestly on pain of death would I voluntarily move my VoIP service to theirs. YMMV

As a TTB customer I can understand that, but what I meant (but didn't put very well), we are told VoIP is 'cheap' to run, yet many SP's analogue offerings (including BT!) and mobile providers call packages, are much cheaper for the customer.

Yeah it’s that pesky concept called profit margin.

Termination costs for calls are dirt cheap. VoIP infrastructure costs a fraction of a percent of what traditional PSTN took. You do the math as the yanks say.

As we know with sipgate basic (and others) voip can be offered at very low cost to the customer. Doesn’t mean it will be.

Technically, that isn't a care alarm!

In reply to a post by dect:

The logical thing for his friend to do would be to simply ask another friend with VOIP/Digital Voice to try it on there service, then they would know and could migrate without fear if it worked. But I suspect Adrian's friend is like him and won't want to try.

That is a good idea, I should have thought of that, that is if he knows anyone with VOIP. He is not a friend as such, just someone from a group I am in.
Not sure what you mean about me not wanting to try, for me it is nothing about not wanting to try, it is everything to do I don't need the service.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

If it just plugs into a phone socket and dials , why will it not work?

I don't know, I live in another city, I am just going by what he is saying.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Dassa:

It is your responsibility to take an interest in things that are important to you.

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.”

-- Douglas Adams, THGTTG

Love it, Just reading that at the moment, a mate got me the original BBC series on DVD,

In reply to a post by Dassa:

Openreach consulted the organisation that regulates them (Ofcom) and their customers (BT Wholesale, Talktalk, etc.). Who else would they logically consult?

You are probably upset that Openreach's customer (e.g. BT Wholesale) didn't in turn consult with their customer who in turn didn't consult with their customer who was you but that feels a little tenuous to me, especially since your direct supplier had an alternative way of giving you (what they believe to be, and I accept that that can be debated) the same function.

You could have responded to the Ofcom industry consultation directly if you wanted to but presumably you didn't. It is your responsibility to take an interest in things that are important to you. (See also "we get the politicians we deserve").

How many people knew about the consultation? No good sticking it in papers I don't read newspapers apart from the local one, they should have sent letters to people about it. It expect they hid it as much as they could so few people can have a say about it, not that it will make any difference. The ones who put out these consultations have made up their mind what they are going to do anyway, so they ignore the results of the consultation, just like our council did with the one they put out about recycling.

i don't call openreach, out of reach for no reason, because that is what they are, out of reach

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Adrian just hates Openreach. Always has. Always will. the end.

Yes, I do,

In reply to a post by Dassa:

If it was that obscure then I would have some sympathy.

This is more like MS releasing Windows 11 and people being surprised that there is an end date for support for Windows 10.

Not to mention that the primary purpose of the service (making voice calls) is unaffected .

If we were talking about towels then the equivalent would be an edict that they shall only be available in one of ten defined RAL colours - whilst it is an inconvenience it doesn't affect their primary purpose - you can still suck them.

They did not make this consultation visible to the majority of people. Most people who use Windows knows that MS products have a limited life, what a lot of people were shocked about was the announcement of Windows 11, considering that Ms said Windows 10 would be the last Windows, lying little toe rags, I would use something stronger, but it would get me banned. Then people wonder why I don't trust companies, governments and organisations. Because they are all lying little toe rags

Adrian

Your surname isn't Mole, is it?

I only ask because in Adrian Mole - The Wilderness Years, Adrian wrote:

“I have decided to keep a full journal, in the hope that my life will perhaps seem more interesting when it is written down.”

they should have sent letters to people about it.

…. and then you would have complained about them coming through your letterbox too 🙄

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Adrian

Your surname isn't Mole, is it?

I only ask because in Adrian Mole - The Wilderness Years, Adrian wrote:

“I have decided to keep a full journal, in the hope that my life will perhaps seem more interesting when it is written down.”

😂😂😂😂😂

An internship in a department that handles EoL (End of service life) in a tech company would be an interesting experience for you zyborg47 😉

@Adrian,

Yet another thing we share! I also prefer that verison of HHGTTG! Just in case you forgot, the other thing we share is the name Adrian. That is my middle name: Mark Adrian King. I alway enjoy it when I find I have something in common with someone. Whether it's name, program or something to do with my birth country of Jordan. My paternal aunt/uncle and several cousins have the surname of Jordan which makes that an especially special name for me.

Cya,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

How many people knew about the consultation?

The CPs knew, you are a customer of a CP, in your case Plusnet. You should complain to your communiations provider if you feel the strategy is wrong. They are likely to ignore you, unless you are a huge corporation buying thousands of lines.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 15-Jan-23 10:46:02)

Hi Adrian

In reply to a post by mking90031:

or something to do with my birth country of Jordan. My paternal aunt/uncle and several cousins have the surname of Jordan which makes that an especially special name for me.

Everyone should be proud of their name and country and I fully support you are just like I am, I do know someone who's is from Wales but their surname is 'English' which causes some amusement when they tell people.

In reply to a post by mking90031:

@Adrian,

Yet another thing we share! I also prefer that verison of HHGTTG! Just in case you forgot, the other thing we share is the name Adrian. That is my middle name: Mark Adrian King. I alway enjoy it when I find I have something in common with someone. Whether it's name, program or something to do with my birth country of Jordan. My paternal aunt/uncle and several cousins have the surname of Jordan which makes that an especially special name for me.

Cya,

I like the Trilogy in Four Parts, It is my sort of strange humour

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The CPs knew, you are a customer of a CP, in your case Plusnet. You should complain to your communiations provider if you feel the strategy is wrong. They are likely to ignore you, unless you are a huge corporation buying thousands of lines.

Considering it is a Openreach and Ofcom thing, they should have notified us, but that what we get from useless regulators, sadly they are all as bad as each, Jobs for the boys no doubt.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Considering it is a Openreach and Ofcom thing, they should have notified us, but that what we get from useless regulators, sadly they are all as bad as each, Jobs for the boys no doubt

since neither of those talk to retail customers, not sure what your gripe is. The reason for change is because the hardware that makes the PSTN work is going to fail, and there isn't enough income from phone calls to replace it.

Even when the FTTC cabinets are eventually turned off don’t expect them to be removed quickly. Though they will eventually.

All of the TPON cabinets round here got removed eventually after sitting idle for a good few years.

Also remember a LOT of exchanges will be closing over the next 15 years, some quite soon. Those FTTC cabinets are rarely connected to their closest exchange. Though I do find often in very rural areas they are joined inside the local exchange, for ease of engineer access, but that’s easily fixed.

" they should have sent letters to people about it."

You don't like receiving stuff through your letterbox.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

" they should have sent letters to people about it."

You don't like receiving stuff through your letterbox.

Said this some time back

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

In reply to a post by broadband66:

" they should have sent letters to people about it."

You don't like receiving stuff through your letterbox.

Said this some time back

Snap 🤣

In reply to a post by broadband66:

" they should have sent letters to people about it."

You don't like receiving stuff through your letterbox.

I am fine with stuff coming through my letterbox, today I had some more coffee, well he tried to get it though, but it would not fit.
But I don't mind, when I said about the Vodafone thing it was not meant to be taken seriously. The thing that does annoy me that I get is the constant letters from the TV licensing that try to intimidate me, I think we are back to the start of them now. Well annoy me? Maybe not, but it is a waste of paper.,

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yeah it’s that pesky concept called profit margin.

Termination costs for calls are dirt cheap. VoIP infrastructure costs a fraction of a percent of what traditional PSTN took. You do the math as the yanks say.

As we know with sipgate basic (and others) voip can be offered at very low cost to the customer. Doesn’t mean it will be.

A part of my income comes from investments in shares, so I have no problem with companies making profits.
I'm thinking Sipgate basic seemed a idea product for a domestic consumer who wanted 'unlimited' calls, it was at a similar price point to call packages from several SP's such as TalkTalk, Sky, etc, and offered 'bonus' features. We are now heading for all 'landlines' being VoIP, but I can't find a VoIP provider offering anything like as good a deal, it looks very much like VoIP providers are not much interested in domestic consumers as they are seen as a diminishing market. That just leaves the likes of TalkTalk, BT, etc to give low prices, and I'm not sure what that means if you want to change ISP.

In reply to a post by burble:

but I can't find a VoIP provider offering anything like as good a deal, it looks very much like VoIP providers are not much interested in domestic consumers as they are seen as a diminishing market.

They would be correct.

In reply to a post by burble:

That just leaves the likes of TalkTalk, BT, etc to give low prices, and I'm not sure what that means if you want to change ISP.

Use your mobile phone for outgoing calls. You can pay less than £5 per month for unlimited calls, plus sufficient data for out-and-about use - and since most people want a mobile anyway, effectively it's free.

The problem then remains how to deal with incoming calls on your old PSTN number. You can get a SIP service for around £1.50 per month (AAISP).

In an ideal world, one or more of the mobile operators would sense a new market, and allow people to port landline numbers and "attach" them to their mobile phone plan. I think it would be fine even if incoming calls were to consume your bundled minutes.

Edited by candlerb (Tue 17-Jan-23 10:20:15)

+1 to all that.

You are right the home VoiP market is pretty naff, I suppose there is very little money in these days with more people using mobile phones. I use sipgate, but I had it before they changed to sipgate basic, so I still only pay for what I use.

As candlerb posted, getting unlimited calls on mobile phones these days is dead cheap, buy your own phone and then use something like Smarty, I get unlimited calls for just over a fiver, granted the data is a bit low at 2GB.

I think for incoming calls you will just have to get the cheap[est voip out there, I don't think there are any that is free now, well, not a proper sip based system where you can port your old number.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Personally I expect the power to be disconnected from the FTTC cabinets (as this provides an immediate cost saving); and then both FTTC and PCP cabs to be left to rust for some years, until the council declares them a safety hazard.

Remember they are paying business rates on the cabinets too...

In reply to a post by simon194:

In reply to a post by ian72:

I don't think someone having an alarm is going to stop BT turning off copper - they will either lose their alarm monitoring or need to get an alternative that doesn't require a phone line, it isn't BT's responsibility.

TBH if someone has an incompatible monitored alarm it should be down to the alarm supplier to provide a solution.

Which most already do - hilariously the most common seems to be to use a 3G solution (not 3G/4G/5G).

In reply to a post by jpm:

I think you've read something that was incorrect. Openreach aren't going to maintain a PSTN for a handful of people who's care alarm providers haven't updated their services.

Yep, my father has one and the provider just updated his "central" to be 2G/3G/4G/5G & fixed line IP at zero cost (beyond what he pays towards the alarm in the first place)

In reply to a post by hunnymonster:

Remember they are paying business rates on the cabinets too...

That did not even come into my mind, but yes I suppose they are, each cabinet may not take up a lot of space, but I expect it all adds up.

I have Sipgate but mainly use it when I'm abroad because as long as I can hook up to a free wifi hotspot can avoid the high mobile roaming call charges.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

You are right the home VoiP market is pretty naff, I suppose there is very little money in these days with more people using mobile phones. I use sipgate, but I had it before they changed to sipgate basic, so I still only pay for what I use.

As candlerb posted, getting unlimited calls on mobile phones these days is dead cheap, buy your own phone and then use something like Smarty, I get unlimited calls for just over a fiver, granted the data is a bit low at 2GB.

I think for incoming calls you will just have to get the cheap(est) voip out there, I don't think there are any that is free now, well, not a proper sip based system where you can port your old number.

Now I've got WiFi calling working reliably on my phone I'm transitioning to mainly using mobile.
Gf meanwhile can't get WiFi calling working, even though her network and phone support it. We use different networks as we are often away in 'not spots' for one or other and we need to keep in contact with vulnerable family.
I have got a Sipgate number but no plan as started trialling it just as before they stopped selling 'basic', the 'old' landline number is still with TTB and I'm keeping a eye on market to see what develops, we have elderly relatives who refuse to ring mobile numbers so ideally we'd get gf's wifi calling working and retain 'landline' number for incoming only.

Edited by burble (Tue 17-Jan-23 11:03:01)

One nice thing about SIP is that you can put the same landline number on your phone and your gf's, and both will ring. Furthermore, she can use it to make calls over wifi even when her main mobile service isn't working with wifi calling (although she'll pay for those, except to another SIP number from the same provider - which could be yours!)

Recommended SIP client: Acrobits Softphone - easily worth the £6 one-time fee (or a couple of quid more for Groundwire with a few more features).

The SIP registration is done on their server, and they use Android or iOS native push notifications to wake up the app - so it has much lower battery drain than a traditional SIP softphone like Zoiper.

In reply to a post by hunnymonster:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Personally I expect the power to be disconnected from the FTTC cabinets (as this provides an immediate cost saving); and then both FTTC and PCP cabs to be left to rust for some years, until the council declares them a safety hazard.

Remember they are paying business rates on the cabinets too...

That really does put a different complexion on it.
So a cabinet can really become truly uneconomical not just because of the power consumption.

I started the thread at the top and worked my way through it. I replied when I saw fit but didn't get to your post until 5 minutes later.

Just confirms most of us are on the same page.

In reply to a post by Eeeps:

... thinking ahead a few years.

Not just the cabinets but the equipment and associated fibre to the exchange?
And the PCP?

Will we be left with concrete plinths all over the place?

Can the cabinets be repurposed for direct point to point fibre connections? (i.e. replace the copper with fibre)

Rip the DSLAM out and sell the whole lot to an AltNet as an almost turn-key fibre solution.

I jest before anyone thinks I’m serious. 😅

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Love it, Just reading that at the moment, a mate got me the original BBC series on DVD,

Original? The TV series adapted from the books that were adapted from the (original) radio programme, as far as I know.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

Original? The TV series adapted from the books that were adapted from the (original) radio programme, as far as I know.

Yes, you are correct, but the BBC made a TV series,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Gui...

I have the books on Kobo, the radio series on cassette and CD, the audio books on audible and the original books in paper back.
I did not like the last film, i thought it was awful.

BT want to close most of the buildings and theres lists stating when each exchange will close.

They already aren’t putting any new kit in the exchanges that are first to close.

So the LLU issue is what it is. Evidently BT feel they’re legally ok to close the exchanges down and give sufficient notice to anyone who has kit in there that it’s closing.

Exchange closure has been happening for 20+ years. It is why there are a set of buildings with more than one exchange name.

Sth Kensington has at least 3 Faraday also. Cardiff has two etc.

As with any tenant, LLU operators are given notice usually some years.

From memory it was 2 years notice.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Sth Kensington has at least 3 Faraday also.

For Faraday I know one of them is Wood Street which closed in the 80's, has Moorgate (National) in Fore Street gone their as well?

I don’t know what you’re on about. There’s a very active exchange closure programme now, hence why the FTTP handover points were only built to larger exchanges.

A large number of exchanges will be closing in 2030.

I’m aware there have been various closures over the years, that’s not the same as what’s planned now.