Timing of move from FTTC --> FTTP

We have just had our address enabled by Openreach for FTTP and i was very excitedly going to make the jump to FTTP.

However the ISPs I have spoke to have pretty much all said that the way that FTTP operates in a different way to FTTC, that it is still a contended service and that the assured rate for FTTP is much lower than the Downstream Handback Threshold on FTTC and that they wouldn't be looking to involve Openreach until the downlaod sppeed drops below the assured rate.

I am currently on an 80/20 connection and my max attainable downstream rate is still approx 83.5 Mbps (although it has dropped by 20 Mbps over the six years I have been on FTTC), so although crosstalk may have taken its toll it isn't in itself a driver for making the move to FTTP.

Historically, I have seen single thread speed issues with a number of ISPs on different backhauls , but now have a rock solid 74/74 TBB speedtest results from my current IDNet / BTw backhaul connection and am slightly concerned that this might not be replicated if I jump to FTTP.

I do make a cost saving from moving to FTTP, but only because of moving the phone element to VOIP.

I could therefore for example take out a 150/30 connection for roughly the same price as a my existing 80/20 connection, which would guarantee me the same download speed (based on FTTP assured rate against FTTC DHT) and quite possibly give me a real world performance benefit.

It has left me questioning whether there is real benefit from moving from FTTC to FTTP now or leaving it closer to the time when the move will essentially be enforced upon us.

I've not see any discussion about cash incentives to get people off ADSL and FTTC connections, but is the transition process likely to get any less costly closer to the PSTN turn off date in 2025?

Am I being over cautious considering waiting to 2025 or should I go ahead and jump now?

Your thoughts are most welcome.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

We have just had our address enabled by Openreach for FTTP and i was very excitedly going to make the jump to FTTP.

However the ISPs I have spoke to have pretty much all said that the way that FTTP operates in a different way to FTTC

Yes

In reply to a post by jaydub:

that it is still a contended service

Yes

In reply to a post by jaydub:

and that the assured rate for FTTP is much lower than the Downstream Handback Threshold on FTTC and that they wouldn't be looking to involve Openreach until the downlaod sppeed drops below the assured rate.

There is no handback threshold on FTTP, because there is no "sync speed", because the bitrate is *fixed*. It's 2.4Gbps down, 1.2Gbps up.

This is shared between up to 32 users on a Passive Optical Network (PON), i.e. a single fibre to the exchange which is split up to 32 ways.

The packet sending and receiving rate for each subscriber is limited by the equipment in the exchange, so that customers only get the overall speed they have paid for.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

I am currently on an 80/20 connection and my max attainable downstream rate is still approx 83.5 Mbps (although it has dropped by 20 Mbps over the six years I have been on FTTC), so although crosstalk may have taken its toll it isn't in itself a driver for making the move to FTTP.

There are no crosstalk issues with FTTP, and no rate adaptation. Instead, the thing which will affect your speed is how many people are connected to your PON (as I said, it's a maximum of 32) and how much they are using the service.

Normally it will be fine, but if you have half a dozen users in your street all on a "gigabit" service and all simultaneously downloading at 900Mbps, then the whole PON capacity will be in use and it will be divvied out between the users. That's where the contention comes into play.

With FTTC, your copper link has a variable speed dependent on line conditions, but is completely uncontended up to the cabinet. It's then contended from the cabinet back to the exchange - at that point, multiple users are sharing the same fibre.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

Historically, I have seen single thread speed issues with a number of ISPs on different backhauls , but now have a rock solid 74/74 TBB speedtest results from my current IDNet / BTw backhaul connection and am slightly concerned that this might not be replicated if I jump to FTTP.

Backhauls are a completely different issue to the access technology. For both FTTC and FTTP, the traffic is brought back to the a handover exchange, and will interconnect to the backhaul provider's network there. Any problems on the backhaul network will affect both equally.

If I were you: I'd make the jump. 100% increase in download speed, 50% increase in upload speed, higher reliability, same price - what's not to like

(Of course, you are lucky that you get the maximum 80/20 on FTTC. Many people don't, and so the case for them is even stronger for moving to FTTP).

I think you're unlikely to find anyone offering you a "cash incentive" to move to FTTP. More likely it will be a case of you being presented as a "free upgrade".

If you decline the upgrade for long enough, eventually it will be forced on you - at worst you'll lose service if you don't take it. But that will be quite a long way down the line. SPs will try hard to persuade you to migrate peacefully and retain you as a customer - expect lots of spam. But cash bribes? I doubt it. You're not *that* important

In reply to a post by jaydub:

is the transition process likely to get any less costly closer to the PSTN turn off date in 2025?

FTTC to FTTP transition is completely independent from PSTN switch-off. There will be lots of people who, after Dec 2025, will still be on FTTC or even ADSL: those who do not have FTTP available, and those who do but are not in copper stop-sell areas. Just their phone service will move to digital voice.

Edited by candlerb (Thu 12-Jan-23 07:57:16)

FTTC to FTTP transition is completely independent from PSTN switch-off. There will be lots of people who, after Dec 2025, will still be on FTTC or even ADSL: those who do not have FTTP available, and those who do but are not in copper stop-sell areas. Just their phone service will move to digital voice.

This is (evidently) a very common misconception.

There will be a lot, several million, bemused and confused customers with no FTTP available in 2024 wondering if they're going to still be connected in 2025.

Leaving this all up to service providers to communicate the upcoming changes effectively is clearly not doing particularly well.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Leaving this all up to service providers to communicate the upcoming changes effectively is clearly not doing particularly well.

fully agree here, there should have been a national campaign from Ofcom (as Oftel did for PhONEday decades ago) and I suspect a lot of people will be confused when PSTN stop sell happens end of this year.

Thanks for the very detailed response. That makes things a lot clearer.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There is no handback threshold on FTTP, because there is no "sync speed", because the bitrate is *fixed*. It's 2.4Gbps down, 1.2Gbps up.

This is shared between up to 32 users on a Passive Optical Network (PON), i.e. a single fibre to the exchange which is split up to 32 ways.

The packet sending and receiving rate for each subscriber is limited by the equipment in the exchange, so that customers only get the overall speed they have paid for.

There are no crosstalk issues with FTTP, and no rate adaptation. Instead, the thing which will affect your speed is how many people are connected to your PON (as I said, it's a maximum of 32) and how much they are using the service.

Normally it will be fine, but if you have half a dozen users in your street all on a "gigabit" service and all simultaneously downloading at 900Mbps, then the whole PON capacity will be in use and it will be divvied out between the users. That's where the contention comes into play.

With FTTC, your copper link has a variable speed dependent on line conditions, but is completely uncontended up to the cabinet. It's then contented from the cabinet back to the exchange - at that point, multiple users are sharing the same fibre.

That is a very clear explanation of the differences. In the case of FTTC there isn't the same speed implications of individual lines bur there are significantly more than 32 lines - potentially 256 in the case of our ECI cabinet

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Backhauls are a completely different issue to the access technology. For both FTTC and FTTP, the traffic is brought back to the a handover exchange, and will interconnect to the backhaul provider's network there. Any problems on the backhaul network will affect both equally.

So in the case of IDNet the backhaul on BTw would be expected to behave the same, but another ISPs backhaul over BTw could be impacted by the capacity of that backhaul presumably.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If I were you: I'd make the jump. 100% increase in download speed, 50% increase in upload speed, higher reliability, same price - what's not to like

I appreciate the advice. I am just after a push in the right direction and anticipating that it would be a 'go for it' response, I have created another thread on the Which ISP sub-forum to ask further advice about whether to expand the range of ISPs I am considering.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I think you're unlikely to find anyone offering you a "cash incentive" to move to FTTP. More likely it will be a case of you being presented as a "free upgrade".

If you decline the upgrade for long enough, eventually it will be forced on you - at worst you'll lose service if you don't take it. But that will be quite a long way down the line. SPs will try hard to persuade you to migrate peacefully and retain you as a customer - expect lots of spam. But cash bribes? I doubt it. You're not *that* important

I recognise that I am just a number in the greater scheme of things. I did wonder whether there would be some incentivisation, but was expected the incentive to be a reduction in installation costs rather £s in the wallet.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

FTTC to FTTP transition is completely independent from PSTN switch-off. There will be lots of people who, after Dec 2025, will still be on FTTC or even ADSL: those who do not have FTTP available, and those who do but are not in copper stop-sell areas. Just their phone service will move to digital voice.

There is plenty of scope for confusion here. It certainly had me confused and I am trying to make an effort to understand the differences in technology. Much more so than Mr Joe Average ever will.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

So in the case of IDNet the backhaul on BTw would be expected to behave the same, but another ISPs backhaul over BTw could be impacted by the capacity of that backhaul presumably.

Correct, I think this was one of the problems in the early days when Vodafone launched their broadband products and went very aggressive on the price, they didn't have the capacity out of the handover exchanges for what they were selling. They spent a lot time (either on purpose or due to lack of training) blaming the links from the FTTC cabinets back to the exchanges for this but other providers had no issues, even in the same areas and on the same cabinets.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

I did wonder whether there would be some incentivisation, but was expected the incentive to be a reduction in installation costs rather £s in the wallet.

Installation in many cases is free already, and you can't get cheaper than that The installation costs to the service provider are quietly recouped over the 12-24 month contract.

Some service providers will charge you £10 "P&P" for the router, and some providers require you to buy the router separately - or use your own.

There are a few who make an up-front installation charge for FTTP: e.g. Cerberus (£48), AAISP (£100 for new install, £15 for migration).

Edited by candlerb (Thu 12-Jan-23 10:50:42)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Leaving this all up to service providers to communicate the upcoming changes effectively is clearly not doing particularly well.

fully agree here, there should have been a national campaign from Ofcom (as Oftel did for PhONEday decades ago) and I suspect a lot of people will be confused when PSTN stop sell happens end of this year.

I think a more relevant comparison is the Digital TV switchover. People needed either new equipment in their home, or at least to retune the equipment they already had, and sometimes other modifications (e.g. new aerials). There was special help for those who needed it.

I think that one was communicated well, and implemented well - unlike the PSTN switch-off so far.

Openreach has been communicating with SPs, assuming SPs will (a) communicate with their customers, and (b) provide solutions for their customers. But most SPs have been kicking it into the long grass. Nobody wants to send out a message which causes confusion and results in a big influx of queries to their call centre.

I agree that some CPs are useless at communicating with their customers. In the Salisbury and Mildenhall trial areas Openreach is now at the point of sending postcards directly to served premises at risk of disconnection (whilst trying to avoid sending them to things like traffic lights which, whilst quite possibly being at risk of disconnection, are unlikely to respond to a postcard!)..

The initial postcards don't directly say that your CP is rubbish but I can imagine that later rounds might get quite blunt so as to ensure that action is taken. If I was a CP I'd want to avoid that.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Leaving this all up to service providers to communicate the upcoming changes effectively is clearly not doing particularly well.

fully agree here, there should have been a national campaign from Ofcom (as Oftel did for PhONEday decades ago) and I suspect a lot of people will be confused when PSTN stop sell happens end of this year.

I think a more relevant comparison is the Digital TV switchover. People needed either new equipment in their home, or at least to retune the equipment they already had, and sometimes other modifications (e.g. new aerials). There was special help for those who needed it.

I think that one was communicated well, and implemented well - unlike the PSTN switch-off so far.

Openreach has been communicating with SPs, assuming SPs will (a) communicate with their customers, and (b) provide solutions for their customers. But most SPs have been kicking it into the long grass. Nobody wants to send out a message which causes confusion and results in a big influx of queries to their call centre.

OR.... there is not any desperately urgent need to do anything *RIGHT NOW* despite what certain people would have you believe so SPs are not rushing to make changes that are not really needed as urgently as some want to make out.

Plenty of providers are getting on with things in the background without making a fuss as effectively very little fuss can be required at all for most people.