Troubles ordering a second FTTP service

Hello, My brother is looking to get another ISP for FTTP and i was wondering if this was even possible as i currently have BT Full fibre service at the same address?

After contacting multiple providers they all seem to say that it's not possible to place an order for an additional fibre line to be installed to the property as an existing ONT/Fibre drop cable exists, But after reading a fair few posts online some seem to have multiple Single port ONT's installed.

My BTWholesale checker states; "ONT exists with active service. No spare ports are available. A new ONT may be ordered."

I've tried to even ask if they can place an order for a multiport ONT and they seem to have no idea what that even means and some just straight up say no, The CBT on the pole is not full and i am currently the only customer on FTTP in my area.

If anyone has any info with this please let me know, Thanks.

Yes it's possible but your choice will be limited.
Many providers only support services over a single port ONT or port 1 of a multi port ONT.

You won't be able to specifically order a 4 port ONT.
You simply order a new service, which should provisionally book Openreach out to install a new ONT and drop cable.
Openreach pick up on this and should swap that for a 4 port ONT switch., provisioning the new service on port 2 of the 4 port ONT.
At this stage any providers who only support port 1 of a 4 port ONT will cancel the order.

So you need to find a provider who can place an order for a new FTTP line (specifically not an upgrade, migration or working line takeover etc) and also a provider who supports more than port 1 of a multi port ONT.

If he is set on a provider who doesn't support port 2 of a multi port ONT then he will need to migrate his FTTP to them, and then order a 2nd service from someone who does support it

Last I looked in to this BT (retail), Talktalk and Sky all only supported port 1. Their ordering systems just don't (or didn't) have the options for other ports.

Most business providers and smaller niche providers will support this no problem.
Just don't expect the main players or most of the budget suppliers to support it.
As above they usually need ordered on port 1.

Part of the reason for only supporting port 1 of a 4 port ONT is because that's the only port that supports Openreach's multicast service which many providers use for their tv offerings.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 29-Jan-23 12:45:48)

Thanks for replying, So do you think Zen would be a good company to check? I've already tried others and on there website when trying to order another service it recognises the existing line and gives an options to; "I authorise Zen to take over the service at this address" or "I want Zen to provide an additional broadband service".

And if they do say they can do it, Do you know if they support being the 2nd port on the ONT if they upgrade the ONT (or better yet install a new line)?

Thanks again!

Yes Zen support both ordering a 2nd FTTP service and being port 2/3/4 of a multi port ONT.

Okay thanks, I'll give them a ring now and see if i can place an order!

Also if they do accept the order and the single port ONT has to be upgraded how would that be done? Is it straight forward as removing the single port on the wall and installing a multiport?

Thanks!

In reply to a post by Thanosfibre:

Okay thanks, I'll give them a ring now and see if i can place an order!

Also if they do accept the order and the single port ONT has to be upgraded how would that be done? Is it straight forward as removing the single port on the wall and installing a multiport?

Thanks!

I'm not sure if there's now a specific order form for providers to order a multi port ONT or if they simply order a 2nd line and Openreach take care of the rest. I believe it's the latter of the 2.

A provisional date will be booked for Openreach to come install a 2nd ONT and drop cable. Openreach pick up on this and arrange a 4 port ONT.
The engineer should simply bring a 4 port ONT and swap them round.
It definitely needs done by an engineer and there's no chance of them sending 1 out and getting you to do it.
The ONT needs registered/authenticated after being installed.

Ask Zen about it. Just don't be surprised if the sales rep has no idea / hasn't dealt with this before.
I would continue to liaise with them after ordering to ensure they do indeed bring a 4 port ONT rather than a 2nd 1 port ONT.

Only way i could contact them was via webchat and they didn't seem to know if i could have an additional FTTP service and to contact the sales team tomorrow (closed on sundays) So i thought i'd give them a try and seems like they where unsure and didn't know.

I'll try giving the sales team a ring tomorrow, Somethings telling me they won't do it but hey who knows lol.

If there's no joy from Zen, try a clueful small ISP like Aquiss (who are in any case giving a good deal: 12 month contract, first 6 months half price)

I've not done this myself but bearing in miond they are business provider and what you've seen on the order page, they've probably got more of a clue than a provider that just serves the consumer market.

I'd place the order and then speak to order management (numbers are all here https://www.zen.co.uk/contact-us) who will likely be able to adjust any order details with Openreach.

Always found them to be knowledgeable which is why I've stayed with them since 2014.

Good luck

I used to have BT & Zen on FTTP. BT on port 1 and Zen on port 2. I did have the 4 port ONT installed when I ordered FTTP in the 1st place though, so didn't have any issues ordering a 2nd connection.

Personally I was not enamoured with the service from Zen over FTTP, it was fine on BTW, but when they moved to their own Zen GEA network it was pretty spotty. Even less enamoured with the process of trying to get it sorted. I'd strongly consider using someone else. I think AAISP could be an option, depending on whether any of the caps they have fit with your usage, I've been very happy since moving to them.

Edited by jimbof (Mon 30-Jan-23 09:33:08)

If you plan on ordering an Ultrafast service (300Mb/s+) on the 2nd FTTP line then I would advise you avoid Zen.
The forums are full of users having issues with throughput on Zens faster FTTP offerings. Zen don't seem interested in fixing this in the slightest.
The issues don't seem to effect their slower FTTP packages.

Well this is awkward lol, Zen where the only people who could actually complete the order after confirming with openreach and he placed the order with confirmation of engineer visit date.

He is ordering the 900mbps package, surely it should be fine?

Have a read of the Zen section of the forum. Specifically those discussing a GEA migration.

You could ask Zen how they are provisioning the line. Whether it is via BT Wholesale, Talktalk Business or their own GEA network (called Plexus).

Basically Zen have 3 options for carrying your traffic from the exchange to them (the backhaul). Those are the 3 I mentioned above, BTw, TTB and Zen GEA.
The issue is anyone who has been moved from BTw/TTB to Zens own GEA network (or anyone put straight on their GEA network) have seen a drop in throughput for Ultrafast downloads.
Zen seemed initially keen to diagnose the problem but now it seems it just isn't a problem to them any more.
They have let quite a few people leave their contract or moved others off their own GEA network but others have been told as long as the line meets the minimum guarantee of 450Mb/s then Zen aren't interested.

Things might have improved. You'll likely have a smooth install process with Zen. I used to highly recommend them and managed a number of Zen lines for others but their response to the Ultrafast issues on their GEA network has left me unimpressed.

Keep the thread updated. I'm keen to see how the 4 port ONT swap goes and how seamless it is now or if you end up with 2 1 port ONTs and 2 drop cables.

If you get the Zen service installed and it works then you have nothing to worry about, if it doesn't work properly then at least you have grounds to exit the contract with the bonus that you have an ONT installed and a serial number to give to any new provider.

Keep the thread updated. I'm keen to see how the 4 port ONT swap goes and how seamless it is now or if you end up with 2 1 port ONTs and 2 drop cables.

A second drop would be OK but I’d personally find a second CSP to be a bit more annoying. They could splice 2 drops inside, like they used to with blown connections.

According to a recent SIN update, both the mysterious Nokia 4-port as well as a new ADTRAN 4-port ONT (even more mysterious) could be supplied. 🍿

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 30-Jan-23 15:56:15)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

According to a recent SIN update, both the mysterious Nokia 4-port as well as a new ADTRAN 4-port ONT (even more mysterious) could be supplied. 🍿

The Adtran kit is slowly getting out there. We seen the new Openreach branded Adtran SDX 611Q (1 port) ONT with 2.5GbE port recently.

The 4 port versions are always going to be much rarer.

In reply to a post by Thanosfibre:

My BTWholesale checker states; "ONT exists with active service. No spare ports are available. A new ONT may be ordered."

assuming that is correct, you may need to wait a while.

if it had something like this

"Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential OH Feed with no anticipated issues.

ONT exists with active service. A spare port may be available or a single port ONT may be swappable to a multiport ONT. A new ONT may be ordered."

then there would be less issues

Edited by Taras (Mon 30-Jan-23 18:40:22)

In reply to a post by Thanosfibre:

Hello, My brother is looking to get another ISP for FTTP and i was wondering if this was even possible as i currently have BT Full fibre service at the same address?

Yes, it's entirely possible to have multiple FTTP services at the same address on paper.

The issues you might encounter are:

- ISPs like Sky who don't like a second service (and def not a second one from them if you used them for the first one etc)

- Limited Ports available on the pole/underground feed

- ISP auto-ordering systems that barely cope with FTTP, let alone "ONT exists, takeover not wanted"

among others.

I *personally* prefer the multiple single-port ONT setup simply because if one dies I don't lose all my connections... so I'm not in favour of the multiport unit idea - but I do get why they exist.

You need a clued up ISP I imagine who can correctly order it, but it absolutely is not an impossibility - I have multiple FTTP services.

In reply to a post by Taras:

In reply to a post by Thanosfibre:

My BTWholesale checker states; "ONT exists with active service. No spare ports are available. A new ONT may be ordered."

assuming that is correct, you may need to wait a while.

if it had something like this

"Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential OH Feed with no anticipated issues.

ONT exists with active service. A spare port may be available or a single port ONT may be swappable to a multiport ONT. A new ONT may be ordered."

then there would be less issues

I've only ever seen the multi port ONT swap message on lines where a new ONT cannot be ordered because the network is at capacity.

It might just be that (I'm positive it is) it just doesn't show the multi port ONT message if there's capacity on the CBT/Splitter.

Hello all thanks for the responses!

When placing the order i made sure to ask the sales team would it A) Be possible to even place the order? and B) Would it be a ONT swap(to a multiport) and he wanted to be extra sure so he told me he was going to call Openreach and check, so he called me back confirming that there is no reason why openreach should deny the order and if they did Zen would be on their case, He also said that openreach said it would be a new drop cable with a new single port ONT which is perfect actually as my fibre is at the back of the house and his needs to be in the front.

The install will be one of the easiest the engineer has probably done, The pole is only a few feet from the front of my house with a straight run. I think i am still the only person with FTTP in my street as others really don't care for internet (a lot of old biddies haha)

He received the confirmation from Openreach a few hours after placing the order and they are confirmed coming to install the new line on the 4th of March, So happy days!


Also, Last thing i want is for him to get the internet then complain to me that it was my fault he's not getting close to the 900mbps, I explained that Zen is the only company that has even told us they can do it. I pray it all goes smooth because i think Zen doesn't have a cooling off period (which is strange) So only 14 days after placing the order can you cancel without penalty.

I'll keep the thread updated anytime i get new information but as it seems right now everything is full steam ahead and the order has been accepted by openreach and an engineer has been booked.

Thanks again everyone!

Hello @j0hn83 (and anyone else lol), I was just curious so i was about to check BTWholesalechecker and when i enter my address now it shows an error message when picking my house

"We cannot determine broadband availability at this location. This may be a new address to which connectivity is not yet complete."

is this normal because we have the second FTTP order to be installed in march?

Thanks.

Edited by Thanosfibre (Sat 04-Feb-23 09:24:37)

Why do u need another FTTP? Never understand why you need 2 x FTTP at the same property? Waste of money

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Why do u need another FTTP? Never understand why you need 2 x FTTP at the same property? Waste of money

Family & remote work for a business? (which isn't the same as a "business" service).

I wouldn't try and infer too much from what the BT Wholesale checker does, let the order run its course and Zen will keep you updated.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Why do u need another FTTP? Never understand why you need 2 x FTTP at the same property? Waste of money

You told multiple people you only needed 80/20 but you still went and got G.Fast.... how about you do you and not worry about what others order with their own money.

In reply to a post by Derpy:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Why do u need another FTTP? Never understand why you need 2 x FTTP at the same property? Waste of money

You told multiple people you only needed 80/20 but you still went and got G.Fast.... how about you do you and not worry about what others order with their own money.

+1 (and then some)

I think its a valid question because its an unusual situation.

I also wonder how long OR will allow residential homes to buy 2 FTTP services because it could cause ununanticipated capacity issues at the CBT on the pole/manhole.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Why do u need another FTTP? Never understand why you need 2 x FTTP at the same property? Waste of money

Waste of a post - there are many reasons why a second service could be needed.

G.fast is obviously a waste of money too for someone who cannot even justify 80/20.

Edited by MHC (Sat 04-Feb-23 20:48:41)

I know a couple who actually work for business competitors and they ensure business and personal lives are separate. Their employers may well require individual FTTP services for each of them and such restrictions would mean that their personal/residential is supplied on a third.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I know a couple who actually work for business competitors and they ensure business and personal lives are separate. Their employers may well require individual FTTP services for each of them and such restrictions would mean that their personal/residential is supplied on a third.

Nice juggling of conflicts there.

In reply to a post by bowdon:

I also wonder how long OR will allow residential homes to buy 2 FTTP services because it could cause ununanticipated capacity issues at the CBT on the pole/manhole.

They have 2 spares at each splitter, and I'd guess they have spare fibers to the splitter too. Given openreach in many places won't have 100% takeup I doubt it would be an issue in many places,

I guess in the future they could replace single port ONT with multiport ones, and work a way to make this a none issue for the ISPs

In reply to a post by mwarby:

They have 2 spares at each splitter, and I'd guess they have spare fibers to the splitter too. Given openreach in many places won't have 100% takeup I doubt it would be an issue in many places,

Whats the typical turn around time for extra CBT ports to be made available on an existing PON?

In reply to a post by MHC:

G.fast is obviously a waste of money too for someone who cannot even justify 80/20.

I know it. But the G.fast 330/50 downloading and uploading are pretty quickest than FTTC 80/20 for large TS video.

It's also not unheard of that these services provided by employers might have nothing to do with providing internet, but they use Openreach products in the last mile. I've worked with companies that provided ADSL and later FTTC (and sometimes ethernet) to their employees that had home offices that weren't internet connections, they were IP VPN that terminated in the company data centre.

In reply to a post by mwarby:

They have 2 spares at each splitter, and I'd guess they have spare fibers to the splitter too. Given openreach in many places won't have 100% takeup I doubt it would be an issue in many places,

I guess in the future they could replace single port ONT with multiport ones, and work a way to make this a none issue for the ISPs

I thought everyone will be on a fttp connection as copper is being phased out. So every house on the street will need a space on the CBT.

I'm not sure how easy it is for OR to add extra CBT capacity?

Ah yes.. The typical " Why do you need another FTTP service". How about i do me and you do you, I asked a specific question to the already helpful people in the thread.

And i couldn't care if you think it's a waste of money, It's my money

In reply to a post by bowdon:

I thought everyone will be on a fttp connection as copper is being phased out. So every house on the street will need a space on the CBT.

I'm not sure how easy it is for OR to add extra CBT capacity?

Not everybody has an active Openreach service currently - instead choosing Virgin Media or an AltNet, and not everybody is going to have an active Openreach service in the future.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Not everybody has an active Openreach service currently - instead choosing Virgin Media or an AltNet, and not everybody is going to have an active Openreach service in the future.

You're right that we'll have a much more diversified phone network system than we did before.

But I'm specifically talking about OR, and whether there are altnets around or VM they are going to want to make sure that there is an OR fibre based place on the CBT for everyone within reach of that distribution point.

If OP gets 2 services served by the OR CBT point. Then OR has stopped orders for copper lines and are nudging people to full fibre connections then unless a CBT is easily added, someone on the street will miss out.

bowden

You can serve 2 ports on an ONT from 1 CBT port. This is what the multiport ONTs are for.

One ONT with up to 4 ports, one Fibre back to the CBT, uses 4 streams back across the PON so PON capacity may be impacted but spread across all the capacity on the PON.

Only restriction I know of is each ONT can only have the TV streams on port 1. But if the others are for business use this doesn't matter.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

bowden

You can serve 2 ports on an ONT from 1 CBT port. This is what the multiport ONTs are for.

One ONT with up to 4 ports, one Fibre back to the CBT, uses 4 streams back across the PON so PON capacity may be impacted but spread across all the capacity on the PON.

Only restriction I know of is each ONT can only have the TV streams on port 1. But if the others are for business use this doesn't matter.

Ahh, ok. I didn't know they could use both use 1 CBT. That makes sense.

Thank you for the information.

Openreach dimension a PON area on the basis of one ‘connection’ per SDU , so one CBT port per address, although the size of the CBT may seem to be be larger than necessary , for example one designed with a demand of 4 addresses wouldn’t use a 4 port , it would be an 8 port , but only 4 fibres are pushed through from the splitter , so 4 of 8 ports are ‘dark’ anyway
Although it’s extremely unlikely that OR would ever have 100% take up , theoretically if someone gets two separate physical connections, so two CBT ports, two ONTs , then potentially someone else could be denied ( even if it were only temporary ) as no port on the CBT would be ‘spare’.

This topic has been discussed a few times , there is no consensus, some state two separate connections will be employed, others state it will be a multi port ONT .
The obvious advantages of changing to a multi port where one connection already exists to a single dwelling , you don’t needlessly block a CBT port , with overhead work you don’t need to climb the pole again ( and climbing poles is avoided where possible) with underground you don’t have the possibility that the duct may no longer be serviceable, the consumer doesn’t need a second ONT , just swapping to a multi port , so no extra power outlets , there probably will be less power consumption, a single multiple port ONT is likely to be less power hungry than two separate ONTs .

The downstream optical path is identical on all 32 legs of a splitter, so using 2 of them into 1 address is unnecessary duplication, in that the ‘data’ on all splitter legs hits all ONTs on the splitter simultaneously, so having 2 separate ONT rather than effectively multiple ONT in one physical enclosure serves no purpose optically

Edited by Iniltous (Mon 06-Feb-23 10:27:30)

Hey everyone, Thought i'd update the thread and say the second ONT was installed early yesterday morning with zero issues and a fast service from zen.

Good to hear, and always nice to get a positive ending!