Switch from Openreach (fibre) leased line to 'normal' FTTP?

Hello,

I recently moved into a house where there was previously a Openreach leased line of some sort (I have ONEA and Fibre node routing numbers). When I contact any broadband providers about getting a fibre connection they all say there is none available to my address. Is there any way I can get the existing line (which I assume is now disconnected) switched to be a 'normal' FTTP connection - or does anyone have a phone number I can contact at Openreach to see what they can do?

Thanks,
Peter

In reply to a post by pc2319:

I recently moved into a house where there was previously a Openreach leased line of some sort (I have ONEA and Fibre node routing numbers). When I contact any broadband providers about getting a fibre connection they all say there is none available to my address. Is there any way I can get the existing line (which I assume is now disconnected) switched to be a 'normal' FTTP connection - or does anyone have a phone number I can contact at Openreach to see what they can do?

I think it's unlikely you can convert it.. either way you'd need to place an order and maybe speak to the installer when they come out (or survey which they might but probably won't). You can't contact OR about this and I don't think it's worth the effort to try via an ISP.

In reply to a post by pc2319:

Hello,

I recently moved into a house where there was previously a Openreach leased line of some sort (I have ONEA and Fibre node routing numbers). When I contact any broadband providers about getting a fibre connection they all say there is none available to my address. Is there any way I can get the existing line (which I assume is now disconnected) switched to be a 'normal' FTTP connection - or does anyone have a phone number I can contact at Openreach to see what they can do?

Thanks,
Peter

The reverse is possible - up to a point - that is using infrastructure in the street installed for Openreach FTTP to deliver an EAD. I’m using this at a particular place, but not as @seb has noted the other way around.

FTTP uses a number of network components that aren't part of the leased line network, in particular the splitter node , but also CBT's. If these FTTP network components have not been built to cover your address then you will not be able to get a native FTTP service.
It is possible to use parts of the FTTP network to provide a lease line by effectively bypassing the splitter node and using the fibres and a CBT port . For addresses without native FTTP the leased line will be provided using legacy network and nodes.

EAD availability or presence has no bearing at all on FTTP availability. The most influence it could have is proving that a route exists so keeping the costs of something like FTTPoD or another provider using PIA under control.

In reply to a post by jpm:

EAD availability or presence has no bearing at all on FTTP availability

That's the correct answer. You cannot "convert" a leased line to FTTP.

The best you can do is to reactivate the leased line, and be confident that there won't be any ECCs and it will be pretty quick. But it will also be expensive - see here from 2020, and pricing has gone up since then.

Otherwise, just like everywhere else in the country, FTTP comes when it comes. Or you could pay £8,000+VAT or more for FTTPoD - and it could still take a year or more to deliver. There's no guarantee that the planned FTTP topology for your area follows any of the routing of your ceased leased line.

Thank you for all of the insightful responses. I think I've learned more from this thread today than in countless hours I've spent online trying to research this by myself.

From checking SamKnows my local comms box has BT FTTC only. Openreach say they're planning FTTP in the coming 3 years. CountyBroadband (countybroadband.co.uk) has recently rolled out 1Gbps fibre in the area but not to my street and they don't seem to know if my street will be connected in the foreseeable future - communication is generally incredibly slow (months to respond) with them.

Giganet offer 1GBps a connection at £13500 for 3 years. Quite a kick in the teeth but at least I can do my job with it. Might FTTPoD be cheaper than this? How can I go about getting a quote or time estimate for it?

Thanks again!

Inspector Clouseau sends his regards 😎

You can kick off the FoD process with someone like Cerberus Networks. The links are on their site. Good luck 👍

😜

In reply to a post by pc2319:

Giganet offer 1GBps a connection at £13500 for 3 years. Quite a kick in the teeth but at least I can do my job with it. Might FTTPoD be cheaper than this? How can I go about getting a quote or time estimate for it?

You first request a free desktop quote, which generally bears no relation to what you'll actually pay, then pay £295+VAT for a full field survey which gives the committed price. Once the quote is returned you have 30 days to pay the *full* amount up front, or the quote lapses. Then Openreach do the install, but in their own sweet time with no penalties if they delay for months. Mine took 3.5 months for the survey and a further 14 months for the installation, although admittedly that's an outlier and you could hope for 6-12 months.

The *minimum* you can expect to pay for a simple install is £8000+VAT. Also with Cerberus you're committed to a 2 year contract with a higher monthly rental than their standard pricing (e.g. £90+VAT for gigabit instead of £60+VAT), although after the 2 years you can either change provider or regrade to a standard FTTP product.

If you calculate (8000+90*24+50*12)*1.2 you get £12,292 total. You can save £864 if you take 300/50 instead of 1000/110 for the first two years.

However, your actual quote could well be much higher than the minimum I suggested - we've seen quotes from forum users several times higher than that. In one case a forum reader got a quote, let it lapse, quoted again two months later, and the cost was double.

The leased line has several important advantages:
* It will be live within a few weeks, rather than an unknown time
* It will be 1000/1000 symmetric and point-to-point dedicated
* The cost is spread over 3 years
* You know the cost now

FTTPoD has only one fundamental advantage, which is that if for some reason native FTTP *didn't* arrive at your property within 3 years, your ongoing charges would be standard FTTP instead of continuing to pay leased line rates (also, note that most leased line providers require you to renew for 12 months at a time, and will auto-renew for another block of 12 months if you don't cancel 3 months in advance).

As as side benefit, FTTPoD may also make FTTP available to a couple of your neighbours. You might be able to come to an arrangement to share the cost - although if they see that native FTTP is on its way anyway, they may well decline.

Edited by candlerb (Thu 11-May-23 08:19:36)

Is that £375/month with the VAT? Spitfire are a reasonable provider and they put all their prices on the website, and as stated there should be no ECCs as the fibre is already in place.

https://www.spitfire.co.uk/connectivity/fibre-ethern...

Interestingly, just this morning ISPReview has reported on announced changes to FoD:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/05/openre...

Apparently they've been suffering a 90% cancellation rate - i.e. people pay over £300, get their quote back, and decide not to proceed.

This either means that the pricing post-survey is coming up much higher than the original desktop quote; or people are paying for a survey hoping that the final price will be lower than the desktop quote. They are then disappointed when it's not, or even if it is, in the cold light of day they decide not to proceed anyway.

I don't think the proposed change will make it any better. The CP still has to apply for a desktop quote ("NBE") and then has to confirm what budget would be acceptable, before proceeding to order and survey. Whether it's binding on the customer at that point is not yet clear; to be announced on 24th May. I suspect the change is that the desktop estimate will become binding on the customer at point of order.

Would Openreach then drop the price if full survey shows that it's easier than expected? No of course not! But if you think that the NBE is too high and will reduce when designed properly, you'll have the option to pay £2,932+VAT(!!) for a detailed survey - which is basically what you pay £298+VAT for today.

So I guess the moral is: if you still want FTTPoD with the option of dropping out after paying only £298+VAT, better get your order in today. Otherwise: this looks to be the final nail in the coffin.

We had this with a guy who ordered EAD to his rural home when he was MD of a company, who paid for it at no small expense. His neighbours 250 metres away were subsequently able to order FTTP broadband [maybe coincidentally, maybe not]. He retired last year and wanted to downgrade to FTTP broadband, but no go - not available at his address. He tried to use his "influence" to get Openreach to see the error of their ways, but if his communication with them was anything like the tirades he directed at us then I'm not surprised that it made no difference.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Would Openreach then drop the price if full survey shows that it's easier than expected? No of course not! But if you think that the NBE is too high and will reduce when designed properly, you'll have the option to pay £2,932+VAT(!!) for a detailed survey - which is basically what you pay £298+VAT for today.

Eeeks!!!

Just looked at what we paid back in 2018. After £3K DCMS rebate and before VAT, the connection cost was £3,450 + £250 survey fee. Which is not much more than paying for just a SURVEY in 2023.

Blimey there was time and place for FoD and 2023 is certainly not it.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Eeeks!!!

Just looked at what we paid back in 2018. After £3K DCMS rebate and before VAT, the connection cost was £3,450 + £250 survey fee. Which is not much more than paying for just a SURVEY in 2023.

Blimey there was time and place for FoD and 2023 is certainly not it.

Indeed not. It's almost certainly going to be insanely expensive or you're paying to speed the process up by not very long in the grand scheme.

I have my doubts about how much of the existing infrastructure some of the quotes people have received is being used. It shouldn't be cheaper to spend 3 years on gigabit DIA waiting for PON rather than getting FoD.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Indeed not. It's almost certainly going to be insanely expensive or you're paying to speed the process up by not very long in the grand scheme.

I have my doubts about how much of the existing infrastructure some of the quotes people have received is being used. It shouldn't be cheaper to spend 3 years on gigabit DIA waiting for PON rather than getting FoD.

Quite. The pricing has become quite frankly absurd for FoD. When you consider that there is more GEA infra in the ground and on poles than there was 5 years ago, it is patently absurd.

The premium for 3 years of EAD will include an ECC pot of something like £3K to "build" the network from the nearest T-node or these days splitter or AgNode if they're piggy-backing off GEA stuff.

So if they can do that profitably manage it for EAD why has FoD tripled it build costs in the last 2.5 years. Makes no sense - unless your pricing model is basically feck-off pricing.

Nearly £3K to get a SURVEY challenged is basically telling your potentials customers to feck-off

DIA pricing is regulated, FoD isn't.

In reply to a post by pc2319:

CountyBroadband (countybroadband.co.uk) has recently rolled out 1Gbps fibre in the area but not to my street and they don't seem to know if my street will be connected in the foreseeable future - communication is generally incredibly slow (months to respond) with them.

Have you asked if they have there wireless (Microwave Link) service in your area ?, It was very good last time I used it. Phone them.

I'm surprised in a way that the altnets haven't filled the FOD gap - unless it's an industry-wide consensus that one-off builds are just not worth bothering with. There'd probably be a market for people on the edge of coverage giving Cityfibre a few grand to reach them via 500m of PIA.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm surprised in a way that the altnets haven't filled the FOD gap - unless it's an industry-wide consensus that one-off builds are just not worth bothering with. There'd probably be a market for people on the edge of coverage giving Cityfibre a few grand to reach them via 500m of PIA.

For small alt nets who have a local presence, combined with some shared extra construction costs, it might work (Gigaclear/full fibre/ swish etc). But for city fibre etc, their model is built on clearly defined SOP and connecting properties outside of their ring configuration isn’t worth the resource to set it up. Project management therefore is set at 50k+ premises, not at the smaller, bespoke builds.

Are you sure you can't work on FTTC? Most applications work fine on it, unless you are transferring absolutely vast files all the time. Is there any 4G/5G options near you - if Three is nearby with 5G you could probably get a gigabit down and a good upstream for very cheap from them.

That price for the leased line isn't that bad imo, £375/month for i assume 1gig symmetric.