Digital Voice | FTTC>FTTP BTLine ?

If anyone has an idea on what happens in this situation I'd appreciate you help.

I have BT Line (as I originally needed it for Broadband)

That broadband is with another Company (now been upgraded to Fibre to the Cabinet.)

I don't use BT For any calls or even have a actual physical Phone, as I use a mobile phone.

OK, that's the scene set, now BT comes along with this digital Voice and copper line discontinuing. . .

My Questiona are:
1. What actually happens when they come to remove the copper / terminate? my BT LIne?
2. Will my broadband still work from the other company (ie they leave the copper from the cabinet to my premises)
3. Will I have to get broadband with BT?
4. Will I have to cancel and restart a "new" FTTC / FTTP with my broandband supplier?


Maybe I should just get Fibre to the Premies now - and then they don't matter.
(I was going to before but something came up)
Maybe I should just let them install the fibre to my premisses (if thats what they do?), then get BB elsewhere, saving an installation fee?

Anyhoo, if anyone has more info on what's in store please let me know.

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

Anyhoo, if anyone has more info on what's in store please let me know.

At some point (likely end 2024 or early 2025) you will be asked to choose if you move the line completely to the internet provider or you give up internet and leave the line with BT Retail as a voice only line. The internet provider may choose to offer voice services, but some will not (e.g. Plusnet). If you want internet and voice you will need to then move to a new combined company for both.

If the internet company offers voice, they will move your phone number to the router and you will plug your “landline” phone or DECT base station into the router, and no longer the socket on the wall.

Separated voice & internet services has been an expensive way of buying broadband and voice for a while, so probably a lot of people in the UK are no longer in this position.

End of PSTN in 2025 has nothing to do with end of the copper line. Only if your town has FTTP and sufficient coverage will Openreach look at ending support of the copper. Unlikely for much of the country by 2025.

Digital Voice is only a service if you take BT’s Broadband, you won’t get this if you use a different internet company (e.g. Plusnet, TalkTalk, Vodafone etc).

Edited by jchamier (Mon 27-Nov-23 19:06:41)

Do you mean you pay separate bills to different providers for "line rental" and "broadband"?

Your broadband provider will contact you some time closer to Dec 2025 to say that they will need to cease your service, unless you migrate it to a new offering. That's because the broadband is linked to the underlying analogue phone service, and that service will be ceased.

Since analogue phone lines are no longer available for sale (since 5 Sep 2023), it's not possible to migrate the existing phone service to anyone else. So you will have to work with your ISP to choose the best way to migrate you to SOGEA, which is broadband without analogue voice. The chances are that they will be able to do it in a way that doesn't result in you losing service for an extended period of time.

The best time to do this will be at contract renewal time.

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

Maybe I should just get Fibre to the Premies now - and then they don't matter.
(I was going to before but something came up)

If that option is available to you, then yes, that's by far the safest and easiest solution, and future-proofs your connection. You can even run the fibre and copper in parallel for a while, for maximum certainty.

Note that if you have *Openreach* FTTP available to you, *and* your exchange is in a "copper stop sell" area, then you won't be able to migrate the copper service to SOGEA anyway; the only option available to you will be to take FTTP.

If you're talking about FTTP being available from an alternative network provider (Altnet) then think carefully about whether they provide a reliable, good quality service, before choosing them. Some small altnets don't have a clue about how to run an ISP. Whilst the fibre itself may be reliable, the rest of their network may not be. Do your research.

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

Maybe I should just let them install the fibre to my premisses (if thats what they do?), then get BB elsewhere, saving an installation fee?

You generally won't have to pay an installation fee for FTTP: although some ISPs charge a small setup fee this would apply whether or not you already had an FTTP line. Just order it. The ISP swallows the Openreach installation charge; it's one reason why you're likely to be locked into a 12-24 month contract. (Some providers have 1-month rolling contracts, but then you do pay a hefty setup fee)

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

1. What actually happens when they come to remove the copper / terminate? my BT LIne?

Your copper line won't be removed. The dialtone on the line will stop in Dec 2025, and the ceasing of that service will in turn trigger the ceasing of the attached broadband. But you can always re-order broadband, from the same or different ISP (unless you're in a copper stop-sell area and have Openreach FTTP available to order)

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

2. Will my broadband still work from the other company (ie they leave the copper from the cabinet to my premises)

The copper remains. Always. But as explained above, the broadband will be terminated unless you've migrated it to a SOGEA-based service before then.

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

3. Will I have to get broadband with BT?
4. Will I have to cancel and restart a "new" FTTC / FTTP with my broandband supplier?

Moving your broadband to BT is one option available to you, and arguably might give you a slightly lower risk of service interruption - at the cost of being locked into a 24 month contract with BT. But to be honest, any decent ISP should be able to manage this takeover for you; that is, they will replace the two separate services with one new service. This could be your existing ISP, or a new one.

Ceasing the line completely before taking the new service is very drastic, not necessary, and guarantees you an outage which could be a couple of weeks.

As candlerb quite rightly answered all of your questions, they won't remove your copper line just yet!
1. The copper stays in place for FTTC but instead you are going to get SOGEA, which is a Single Order Generic Ethernet Access. This means broadband without analogue telephone service. You'll of-course still need the copper as the FTTC service is still being delivered part copper.

Like for example I'm on Digital Voice with BT FTTC. What I'm getting at the moment is basically SOGEA. Plugging telephone into the master faceplate socket has no dial tone. But connecting an old vintage telephone to the router works! You also get this new Alexa wireless phone that registers with the router.
When absolutely 100% of all of the UK gets upgraded to FTTP then this copper line will be defunct. There will come a time when FTTC as a service will be retired, just like some ISPs are retiring ADSL. The same way there's hardly any dial-up services any more.

When all packages eventually migrate to FTTP only, I suppose then it will be safe to tear away the copper. But this is a step by step gradual process. Only analogue phone is being retired by December 2025.

2. Your broadband will still work, the ISPs will just migrate to Digital Voice just like what BT are doing. Possibly upgrading their supplied routers with a telephone port. FTTC will remain for many more years to come while the UK is being upgraded to FTTP. Obviously there's no way Openreach will remove the copper without first building those areas with Full Fibre as that will leave people without broadband.

3. I'm sure you won't be stuck with BT only. There will be more and more ISPs that will offer Digital Voice as part of the FTTC package. Simply the analogue phone service will no longer be supplied. But if you wish you can still migrate to Digital Voice and retain your old telephone number! I migrated from TalkTalk FTTC analogue phone to BT FTTC+Digital Voice 15 months ago. I simply entered my landline number during migration and the service was smoothly switched. The migration happened seamlessly.

However, if I were to now switch to an Altnet FTTP service like Community Fibre without a VOIP telephone service as part of the package and cancel BT FTTC then I'll lose my phone number. But like you, I don't care about the landline as I too use mobile phone for calls instead.

4. Only if you are migrating from FTTC to FTTP. If you already have FTTP available and you plan to take that then you'll have to cancel FTTC separately. But if you are on FTTC analogue phone most likely the ISP will simply cancel your analogue phone service and turn your service into SOGEA+Digital Voice automatically without interruption to your broadband service.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

However, if I were to now switch to an Altnet FTTP service like Community Fibre without a VOIP telephone service as part of the package and cancel BT FTTC then I'll lose my phone number. But like you, I don't care about the landline as I too use mobile phone for calls instead.

Once again incomplete and inaccurate information. You can retain your phone number if you wish by transferring to an independent VOiP provider like Sipgate or Voipfone

Thanks for all the replies, didn't know about [Single Order Generic Ethernet Access]
and, er honestly still a little confused.

Could I have terminated my unwanted BT line once I went onto FTTC?
(I just assumed I needed a "phone number & account with BT" to enable the ISP.)

Anyway that's of no consequence. best to look forward
I'm kind of grandfarthered in to a fixed priced with Zen,rolling contract which I can get out of any month, but all their current offers are quite pricey in comparison to others, and I'd be locked into a 18-month contract.
(I suppose that's going to be the case anywhere)

Another thing, as I have FTTC - I assume that means I can't get FTTP via a separate provider at the same time? (as that would help with any issues or downtime)

Not really sure what the best option is.
I just want FTTP, (No BT or phone No.) and a safe switch over. I'll have a think about it over the holidays during one of the mince pie induced torpor and see if it becomes clear.


Thanks again for the help, most useful. [getting old]

You can get FTTP via a different provider than your FTTC. It is certainly possible. The only risk is ensuring the FTTP provider is aware it is a new provide and not a replacement of the FTTC as there was a report a few weeks back from someone that the provider had assumed they were taking over the service and the old provider received a notification that the FTTC was to be ceased.

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

Could I have terminated my unwanted BT line once I went onto FTTC?
(I just assumed I needed a "phone number & account with BT" to enable the ISP.)

No.

The service you are using now comprises two Openreach services: Wholesale Line Rental (WLR) and an FTTC broadband "transition" product which requires a linked WLR line.

Your phone bill goes to BT who in turn pay for the WLR; your ISP bill goes to your ISP who pay for the FTTC transition product.

However, if you cease the WLR service, it *automatically* ceases the attached FTTC on the same line, even though it's from a different company. (Openreach notifies the ISP that the service has been ceased, the ISP stops billing you, and may charge you a hefty penalty for terminating the service before the end of your contract)

With SOGEA there's a single order (SO) which activates broadband on the line, and you're paying for it all in one go.

(People think that the WLR is paying for a phone service, but really it's paying for a copper line, and the voice component is a very tiny proportion of this. This is why SOGEA is only pennies less at wholesale than WLR+FTTC)

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

I'm kind of grandfarthered in to a fixed priced with Zen,rolling contract which I can get out of any month, but all their current offers are quite pricey in comparison to others, and I'd be locked into a 18-month contract.
(I suppose that's going to be the case anywhere)

Yes, but do phone them up and talk to them. It's possible they will agree to switch you to SOGEA and retain the current price-for-life - I think I read someone on the forum reporting this. And even if they don't, you can just leave things as they are, and maybe they'll offer you a better deal closer to disconnection date.

It's also worth asking what they might offer for a move to FTTP.

In reply to a post by TransmitThis:

Another thing, as I have FTTC - I assume that means I can't get FTTP via a separate provider at the same time? (as that would help with any issues or downtime)

Absolutely you can! Just as you can have multiple copper lines installed for broadband, from different providers.

Good luck!

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

However, if I were to now switch to an Altnet FTTP service like Community Fibre without a VOIP telephone service as part of the package and cancel BT FTTC then I'll lose my phone number. But like you, I don't care about the landline as I too use mobile phone for calls instead.

Once again incomplete and inaccurate information. You can retain your phone number if you wish by transferring to an independent VOiP provider like Sipgate or Voipfone

Thanks for clarifying, I've heard of that but completely forgot of that option. But it's actually quite expensive transferring to a third party VOIP. Their services are £5-£20 a month!

Not to mention, I'd have to remain on BT FTTC for the time being. You can't simultaneously switch and at the same time retain phone number. This is only possible on the existing Openreach FTTP network or existing FTTC network where the transfer can be taken over from their end.

If you try to switch to an Altnet FTTP provider from either FTTC or Openreach FTTP the migration process is not straightforward. You have to keep hold of your current provider for a few days or else you will lose your number. You also have to manually cancel your existing service.

If I switch to Community Fibre I have only 2 options to choose their phone service for £2 extra a month or like you say switch to an independent VOIP. But I'll have to wait for a few days and keep existing BT service before migration.

This is the only obstacle we will have to go through. If I had Openreach FTTP then perhaps the procedure would be simpler. This is why having a mobile sim service from the likes of RWG is a far better option! For £2 a month you can get 750MB data 150 minutes and texts or for £20 year upfront, which is what I recently paid I get 250 minutes and texts+2GB a month. That's equivalent to £1.66 a month and is a better choice than any VOIP service you get.

Digital Voice is good if it's part of the broadband package but if you have to pay significantly extra then it isn't worth it. Losing phone number is no big deal. For 99% of the users broadband speeds and reliability are the number 1 priority when switching provider. Most people will not really care about losing their phone service.

For 99% of the users broadband speeds and reliability are the number 1 priority when switching provider. Most people will not really care about losing their phone service

84% of statistics are made up on the spot...

I suspect that is not a realistic statistic. There are a fair number of people who would have had the same number for years and have shared that number with lots of friends, family and companies. For some of us (like me) the landline is less important and I dropped it completely last year and the house is now solely mobile but for others the landline number is almost a part of their identity - and I suspect a lot more than 1% of the country fall into that group.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Thanks for clarifying, I've heard of that but completely forgot of that option. But it's actually quite expensive transferring to a third party VOIP. Their services are £5-£20 a month!

The majority on here use AAISP for VOIP and it's like £1.44 a month, complete with a customizable control panel.
Transferring/migration is free.
£1.20 setup fee.

BT charge £5 a month for their proprietary, locked down VOIP.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 30-Nov-23 14:45:17)

I pay £2 for telephony on a PAYG basis on BT DV

In reply to a post by ian72:

For 99% of the users broadband speeds and reliability are the number 1 priority when switching provider. Most people will not really care about losing their phone service

84% of statistics are made up on the spot...

I suspect that is not a realistic statistic. There are a fair number of people who would have had the same number for years and have shared that number with lots of friends, family and companies. For some of us (like me) the landline is less important and I dropped it completely last year and the house is now solely mobile but for others the landline number is almost a part of their identity - and I suspect a lot more than 1% of the country fall into that group.

Yes, it is true that a fair number of people would've kept the same number for years and may have been shared amongst friends, families and companies. But how many of those are really keeping the same number for the sake of close contact or are just naturally keeping it because they need broadband?

Actually you can determine by how many of your friends, family and companies still contact you via the landline number. I'd expect that most of them are contacting you via social media like Facebook, Skype, Whatsapp, Mobile phone.
I know my dad's friends haven't been in communication via landline phone for years not since 2004, which was the last time I remember my dad using the landline to call. We just disconnect the phone line and don't care about it any more.

I suspect it is going to be a niche of users mainly older generation of people like pensioners who keep landline and not bother to use the internet because some don't like technology and computers because they think it is too complicated.

You don't really see people on these forums consulting for support how to get just landline phone service without broadband. Obviously this is normal as it is a broadband forum. But majority of the users care more about the internet and have pretty much abandoned their landline phone number. While some few people are unaware that there are cheaper sim deals on offer like RWG or 1pMobile.

So this migration to Digital Voice is only going to affect a very small minority. I don't think most of us will worry about losing our landline phone number or care about changing it. I changed my landline number when I initially switched to TalkTalk 3 years ago because the old number had spam calls and we know that these missed calls and voicemails were not from friends but telemarketers. This was causing broadband drops occasionally. Since changing number my issues stopped and with Digital Voice it completely solved the problem that I once had.

For many having a landline phone number is actually an unnecessary nuisance. Most people just want to have broadband and not bother with landline phone service. Phone service should be an optional feature and with Digital Voice that's a step in the right direction.

You're young. You're landline number might not mean much to you but it does to others.

It meant nothing to me to drop my landline number that I had for about 10 years. The phone never rang for the 1st 5 years and the 2nd 5 years there wasn't even a handset connected.

Think of people who have had the same landline number for 20, 30, 40 years. That's the number used by relatives, old friends, Doctors, hospitals, etc etc.

For 99% of the users broadband speeds and reliability are the number 1 priority when switching provider. Most people will not really care about losing their phone service

The majority don't care about a landline number. However I think it's probably a little more than 1% of users who care about their landline number.
Even many of the younger techy users on these forums have migrated their landline number to a 3rd party VOIP provider.

I suspect it is going to be a niche of users mainly older generation of people like pensioners who keep landline and not bother to use the internet because some don't like technology and computers because they think it is too complicated.

You don't really see people on these forums consulting for support how to get just landline phone service without broadband. Obviously this is normal as it is a broadband forum.

No, not because it’s a broadband forum … it’ll be because it’s online 🙄

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Even many of the younger techy users on these forums have migrated their landline number to a 3rd party VOIP provider.

I'm 50 and did that 4 years ago when moving from FTTC to cable as the number was 25 years old and I had no idea whom might try to contact me via it.

I'm not that young, I'm 34 years old and in 3 months time I will become 35!

I've gone through my first Dial-Up since 1998 when I was 9 years old. I remember the old days when I started playing chess online on MSN Gaming Zone and my dad told me, "I'm now going to pick up the phone to call a friend, quickly finish your game" as the internet will disconnect!

Those days are still in my memories. Chess, Checkers, Reversi, Backgammon, Spades, Hearts, etc were the first games I played online on Dial-Up internet. It was with Barclays pay as you go service provider a CD-ROM installation with a Sagem F@st modem. Then Diablo 2 was the first PC game in the early 2000 that I'd play online.

Then I remember the days of ADSL when we switched to Tiscali in 2003 and it was like 128Kbps and in 2004 it was 1Mbps. The landline phone was still a problem causing issues with drop-outs but the internet was still usable while making phone calls unlike on Dial-Up where the internet would not work.

Eventually my dad bought a Nokia 3210 and even I had a Nokia 3330 in 2004 at 15 years of age using O2 pay as you go back then.

This is when things changed. All my dad's friends also bought mobile phones and gave their new mobile phone number and pretty much abandoned the old landline. There came a point when no one was interested to give their landline number any more.

There was a time when only for a few seconds a friend will call via mobile and say to login to Skype as Skype calls are free.

My dad is a Medical Doctor and I do remember locum agencies calling him on landline and sending emails about various job offers around the UK. He would work in different hospitals in the UK for a few weeks/months contract. Eventually he gave his mobile number. The same thing happened with our local GP, dentist, etc.

There was no longer a compelling case to have to give our landline phone number anywhere as friends didn't either. Calling 1471 regularly resulted in no missed calls from anyone other than some spammers.

Multiple times we have changed our landline number. In 2020 after maybe 10 years we finally changed number as part of our FTTC upgrade with TalkTalk and since I no longer had spam calls with this new phone number I safely migrated to BT FTTC using Digital Voice in July 2022. BT did port the number to the new DV service successfully. But porting the number was mostly a case of switching provider smoothly otherwise we didn't really care about the number.

We've only experimentally used the service to call each other with the new dect phone to test what the service is like. Digital Voice is definitely better from our test compared to the old analogue service, much clearer sound quality and the line has zero crackles.
But nevertheless none of us have really used landline to call anyone these past 15-20 years or so and with the new DV service, I'm not sure how much special attraction it will bring to the customers. 1% doesn't seem like a very big deal of users. I'd be curious to know how many of these young techy users prefer to use a 3rd party VOIP provider by default compared to a mobile sim deal.

I've had my landline number, at four addresses, for more than 40 years. It is now on VoIP with A&A. It hardly rings these days but I keep it because it might be useful and it doesn't cost much. Don't use it for outgoing because my sim-only phone contract has unlimited calls.
The NHS prefers to have mobile numbers where possible, because it means they can text appointment confirmations, reminders &c. The same for the dentist.
I have a 1Gb fibre broadband service and wired my house for ethernet, which will all be running at 2.5Gb when I've changed one more switch. I assembled my PC for the umpteenth time since the 1980s earlier this year.
I'll be 75 in a few months, so don't assume that all oldies are technophobes. I might not be typical but I'm not alone either.

I've had our landline number since moving here 14 years ago and keep it because so many elderly relatives and friends have it and use it. Also my wife hates mobiles and refuses to use one for calls! Like the previous poster I'm getting on a bit (80) but very competent with technology and have no problem building PCs, installing networks and tinkering with anything technical. Our landline number will follow me to Zen when I move from Virgin in the New Year.

Edited by HughA (Sun 03-Dec-23 09:58:16)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Thanks for clarifying, I've heard of that but completely forgot of that option. But it's actually quite expensive transferring to a third party VOIP. Their services are £5-£20 a month!

The majority on here use AAISP for VOIP and it's like £1.44 a month, complete with a customizable control panel.
Transferring/migration is free.

Actually, I believe there's a £15 charge to port in your existing number:
https://www.aa.net.uk/voice-and-mobile/number-portin...

If you have phone+broadband and you want AAISP to take them over, then renumber the phone line to export the number to VOIP whilst keeping the line active, they can do that too but it's more expensive (£44.40)
https://www.aa.net.uk/voice-and-mobile/number-portin...

60 year old here.

I've been taking note these last couple of years, who and how many (genuine) callers we get on our landline .

It's Six.

In view of that, I've been evaluating Sipgate's PAYG VoIP service for the last 18 months, and we're just about to put a note in six Christmas cards (again they are just about the only physical ones we're sending to !) that our 'landline' number has changed, and to ask them to put the Sipgate number in their address books.

The PSTN landline will die between now and Dec 2025, either because Plusnet will kill it, or (miracle I'm still waiting for) we move to FTTP.

I don't want to sound morbid, but I doubt any of those six folk will be ringing us by 2033.

Well said, I had my 72nd birthday last week, I changed over to VOIP with YayYay using the number they provided about a month or 2 before porting my telephone number over and upgrading from FTTC to 1Gb symetrical FTTP with Community Fibre Ltd who I have been with for over 3 years now, some of the youngsters on here wouldn't even know what Home Highway was or even dial up 🤣

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

some of the youngsters on here wouldn't even know what Home Highway was or even dial up 🤣

Why would they need too? talking about 2B+D technology (e.g. BT Highway) is nothing exciting these days is it? I'm sure your parents must have experienced things you never did, its an age thing 🤣

In reply to a post by The_Voyager:

some of the youngsters on here wouldn't even know what Home Highway was or even dial up 🤣

Too true, I work with some 19 year olds..... my parents had Home Highway when I was living at home, it was insanely expensive

Youngsters need to go to the Museum of Computing at Bletchley Park, then they might understand a bit more about how computers and the internet works.