Phantom phone calls on a full fibre line

Looking for understanding of how this could happen:

A property is getting bills from BT for phone calls made.
HOWEVER: there is no router connected, and no telephone connected. This I know for a fact.

According to BT the voice side is now run off the FTTP fibre line. They stated yesterday that the old service over copper lines was terminated last summer.

I've just a couple of hours ago seen a list of these "phantom" calls. Most are to 123. A number are to random telephone numbers on the same exchange. Times are random, including some during the night. All calls are only a few seconds.

There's an engineer booked and coming out on Tuesday. I'm going to make sure I'm there, as this scenario intrigues me. If it was copper lines I could understand a "crossed line" issue. But I don't understand how that could happen on FTTP fibre.

Anyone more knowledgable got any ideas?

Can only think the wrong service has been built on their circuit, and someone else there's. I would expect the attending engineer will check that 1st.

123 is (as I expect you already know) the speaking clock.

You might try dialling to establish that you have the correct directory number coming over any VOIP equipment. Or that the ONT serial number matches that on record for your address … failing that, some weird remote build issue at the CP end ?

Keep us posted please

Thanks to Witchunt and Zarjaz for the replies.

There is no equipment at all connected, and no voip in use.
The property is empty right now due to illness.

This only came to light the other day when a bill was queried. The phone calls show up on the BT App.

Yes thanks Zarjaz, Speaking Clock. Been years since I last dialled that. Those calls are getting charged at 50p each!

Supplementary question: person at BT said that 123 "is the first number on the list for tests". Does anyone have any comment on that? The only test number I've ever used is 17070.

No doubt all will become clear on Tuesday.

If you look into this further you'll find that it has been happening for many years.

The last time I had the problem, there was also a call, which I did not make, made to a local takeaway at the same time.

I believe that despite being expressly told not to do so and despite there being a number that could be used without incurring a charge, engineers working at cabinets used 123 to test a line because it's a quick and easy number to dial.

On each of two occasions I challenged the bill and got the charges refunded.

Cheers Longedge, interesting.

Yes BT agreed to refund all these charges, without quibble in fact.

Is there any "working at cabinets" equivalent for full fibre lines though?
The fibre comes from a very different route from the old copper line.

Is there any "working at cabinets" equivalent for full fibre lines though?

No.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Is there any "working at cabinets" equivalent for full fibre lines though?

No.

+1

"working at the headend" maaaaaaaaybe? 😁👀

In reply to a post by Taras:

"working at the headend" maaaaaaaaybe? 😁👀

Nah ….. dis off up to 32 other users, just to make a couple of calls to the speaking clock ? They would have a paid for company mobile which could make calls, or display the time ….

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

In reply to a post by Taras:

"working at the headend" maaaaaaaaybe? 😁👀

Nah ….. dis off up to 32 other users, just to make a couple of calls to the speaking clock ? They would have a paid for company mobile which could make calls, or display the time ….

Daaaaaaaam you spoil sport you!!!!!!! 😁😁😁😁😂😂😂😂😂 True though we have to feel for the 32

Thanks to all who have responded so far.
I don't think I'll have anything new to add here before the engineer visit on Tuesday.
I'll update the thread after that.

Unsure what a visit is going to be able to achieve, maybe they think that they've provisioned your service on a neighbours ONT and you both happen to be with BT?

A quick test would be to plug in a handset to the router, dial your mobile phone, and see what CLI is displayed. (You don't need to answer it).

Then see if that CLI matches what your bill says your phone number is.

Incidentally, many providers offer FTTP without voice. Even BT these days. If you don't want any chance of being charged for voice calls, better not to take voice.

My guess is the old analogue line hasn't been ported and ceased properly.

The wires are being re-allocated for a new unrelated order or victim of a search for spares and the Kelly's muppets are ringing 123 to see if it a ceased line or not. (ceased lines won't connect chargeable calls like 123 )

Edited by FibreBubble (Sun 18-Feb-24 11:57:06)

It can't be a coincident that there are 123 calls on there which most paying customers wouldn't be making, like you say the line probably hasn't been ceased properly when migrated from copper to IP and the copper pair is swinging in the wind somewhere still able to make calls.

Update.
Openreach engineer visited yesterday. No smoking gun.

What was confirmed was that these calls cannot be originating from the house.
Engineer confirmed that the old copper line is no longer working in the premises end.
Also BT's logs will confirm that there was no router sync'd, therefore not possible for calls to have been made, at the times of these calls.

He did say he would go back to the exchange and cut off the old copper line at that end.
He also said he had got a loop on that line when testing before arrival.
Question: when a line is terminated, exactly where is it "cut"? Is that a physical disconnection, or something done by software? Would there be any difference in this regard whether it was an old fashioned termination of a phone line, or whether (as in this case) it was so that phone calls would henceforth run over the fibre rather than the copper?

So far BT have been easy about cancelling these phantom charges. It seems to me BT must have some system of identifying where the calls originate. Presumably there's a different pipe for charges coming from copper as opposed to charges coming from fibre? There must be some way of identifying the source of the call charges.

It does raise serious questions about the integrity of BT's billing system.
I will update this thread again when there's anymore info.

In reply to a post by clyde123:

Question: when a line is terminated, exactly where is it "cut"? Is that a physical disconnection, or something done by software?

I would guess what he was going to do was a disconnect of the copper jumper either at the equipment frame pair or the main cable frame pair as it leaves the exchange.

Edited by PCJM40 (Wed 21-Feb-24 09:09:13)

Thanks for the update.

I am more confident of my original guess.

It's a software issue in that the port or cease hasn't completed fully and so the old analogue line is still live

Leading to an engineering intervention issue as the old line is being issued for another customer and the engineer is finding an 'unknown worker' on his allocated wires.

It was found some years ago that contractor training schools told them to dial 123 as a chargeable call to check if the line was ceased or not. So this is a big clue and obviously the bad practice still exists.

In reply to a post by clyde123:

So far BT have been easy about cancelling these phantom charges. It seems to me BT must have some system of identifying where the calls originate. Presumably there's a different pipe for charges coming from copper as opposed to charges coming from fibre? There must be some way of identifying the source of the call charges.

It does raise serious questions about the integrity of BT's billing system.
I will update this thread again when there's anymore info.

A few years back Sky rolled out a sightly bugged version of their Talk Shield system and the online call log listed the originating number as well as the presentation number of calls. It also listed the originating number of calls that were flagged as withheld numbers.

So I would guess the originating number of all calls is logged somewhere.

I'm not sure I follow.
The originating number is the OP's number and any log will show it as the OP's number.

This isn't an incoming call with a spoofed ID where a log will show where it originated. It's an outgoing call the OP has been billed for.

Was there ever a VoIP handset issued to the address that perhaps got sold or given away?

Digital Voice base station with a handset (typically Yealink) supplied by BT configure themselves automatically when plugged in to a network, but often get received by a customer who doesn't need a "landline" so they end up on Ebay. The moment they are plugged in they configure themselves and become live the original owners telephone number and on their account. I've bought two from Ebay and both self configured and became live and I had to contact Yealink and get it removed from their database.

That's a good shout, but BT Digital Voice (the consumer version at least) does a handshake that requires the BT hub connected to the active account to make calls.
You can't use their landline VOIP/digital voice anywhere else.

If I tried to use someone else's BT handset on a BT hub in my house it would authenticate as me (if I was with BT).
If I wasn't with BT (e.g a Plusnet connection with a BT hub connected) it wouldn't work at all.

Proprietary, locked down BS.

It definitely sounds like a copper pair is still live somewhere, especially with 123 being dialled (commonly used by Openreach subbies to check a pair)

Thanks E300, that's a good question.
The answer though is no, there has never been any VoIP equipment connected.
There is not any Digital Voice on that line.
And no, there's never been any phone equipment received from BT. Other than the hub.

The last telephone connected on this line was an old analogue handset, in the first half of 2023. Now removed and had become redundant anyway.

Thanks also to JOhn83 for chipping in on this suggestion.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by clyde123:

Question: when a line is terminated, exactly where is it "cut"? Is that a physical disconnection, or something done by software?

I would guess what he was going to do was a disconnect of the copper jumper either at the equipment frame pair or the main cable frame pair as it leaves the exchange.

Dis it off at the bar pair or LIC (gotta go for the lingo innit)