Leased line fibre, change supplier

We have spent over £12,800 (over 3 years) on getting fibre to a domestic property because fast internet speed has not been available.
Now the 3 years is up, we wish to change providers, because the installing company do not offer a domestic tariff.
We've endured the 'commercial' sky high monthly payments, but now the contract is up, we'd like high speed domestic broadband at a 'normal' domestic price (£300 less, per month, than we are currently paying).
The problem is: we're told that our fibre is from our property to the exchange.
So why can't a provider connect the fibre in the exchange to an internet connection?
They say they can't because they would need to install ANOTHER fibre cable from the exchange to our property!!!
SERIOUSLY! you couldn't make this up!
Does anyone know who in the fibre world, I could speak with on this issue please?

You've bought and paid for a leased line with a specific provider. You are stuck with it - no other provider will adopt that fibre. So either you keep on paying or cancel it....

Edited by gorebrush (Tue 27-Feb-24 13:21:24)

FTTP and Ethernet leased lines are not the same type of network , it’s not a simple as disconnecting your fibre from the leased line providers Ethernet kit and somehow connecting you to an Openreach FTTP PON , there is nothing really common between them ( apart from the fact they operate on the same type of fibre cable ) , you could potentially switch your Ethernet leased line provider to a cheaper provider , but you ultimately would still be on an exclusive fibre from your home to the Ethernet provider kit , and be paying a rate commensurate with that type of connection , it’s not a brilliant comparison, but OR can run 30 customers on a single fibre via a splitter, your Ethernet fibre has just you on it , and there is no easy way to convert your fibre to one capable of servicing anyone other than you .
With hindsight you should have ordered FTTPod, that way after the minimum term your connection is simply an ordinary FTTP one , that you could migrate to any provider that offers FTTP in your area,

Edited by Iniltous (Tue 27-Feb-24 14:09:14)

Looks like you have bought a leased line. That can't be transferred to another provider.

If you had ordered FTTP on Demand, that would have been transferrable, however that ship has sailed.

On the plus side, you now have the fibre plant installed, so you could shop around for another leased line provider and order a new service from them - you'd have to pay their installation charges and then their rental which may or may not be cheaper than what you already have.

If you're looking for service for £30 a month though, you're not going to find it.

Ethernet leased lines are portable to a certain extent but only between retailers that offer them , it’s usually businesses that want these type of services and they generally don’t want any downtime , so they don’t transfer services as such , but order another Ethernet service from their new chosen Ethernet provider, because a ‘fibre’ Ethernet service already exists , it’s a ‘quick win’ as far as Openreach are concerned, so the lead time is negligible, and any costs are absorbed into the rental costs , once the new service is in ( for arguments sake on fibre 2 of the existing 4 fibre bundle) , the customer ceases the original service that was on fibre 1 of the same bundle, customers own comms staff transfers their own ‘kit’ from one to the other before the cease takes effect.
An alternative, that has a break in service, is to simply cease the service, and then reorder with a competitor , the existing but ceased fibre route is repurposed for the new provider, that’s often the case when a business customer moves into a commercial property that a previous occupant had a fibre service.

Edited by Iniltous (Tue 27-Feb-24 14:59:18)

If your leased line is using a circuit from Openreach then you'll be able to migrate it to another leased line provider who also uses Openreach circuits.

Since it already exists there will be no Excess Construction Charges, and if you can find a provider who will take over the line (a novation and A-End Shift) then the installation charges they pay to Openreach will be lower - which they may return to you in the form of a shorter contract period, so you may be able to get a 12 month term at a reasonable price.

Note that many leased line providers have contracts which auto-renew for subsequent 12 month periods, unless you give notice 90 days before the end of the contract. Do check this, if you intend to cease your existing service.

But apart from that, as several other people have said, you can't convert this to a consumer FTTP connection. They are two different networks that work in completely different ways. You will just have to wait for Openreach to deliver consumer FTTP; they intend to cover 85% of the UK population by Dec 2026. In the mean time, you may want to keep your leased line if you can it at a reasonable price and a short enough term.

It sounds like you are confused between FTTPoD pricing which becomes normal FTTP after the installation and opens up options for reverting to a more reasonable tariff, and EAD which is what you have and costs the provider £150/month + VAT just for the fibre between you and the exchange.

If you were told that buying a leased line would give you FTTP options once the contract had ended then it's been mis-sold.

Have you checked if regular FTTP has become available at your property in the last 3 years either on Openreach infrastructure or from an alternative network (aka altnet)?

In reply to a post by _Larry_:

We have spent over £12,800 (over 3 years) on getting fibre to a domestic property because fast internet speed has not been available.
Now the 3 years is up, we wish to change providers, because the installing company do not offer a domestic tariff.
We've endured the 'commercial' sky high monthly payments, but now the contract is up, we'd like high speed domestic broadband at a 'normal' domestic price (£300 less, per month, than we are currently paying).
The problem is: we're told that our fibre is from our property to the exchange.
So why can't a provider connect the fibre in the exchange to an internet connection?
They say they can't because they would need to install ANOTHER fibre cable from the exchange to our property!!!
SERIOUSLY! you couldn't make this up!
Does anyone know who in the fibre world, I could speak with on this issue please?

Are you talking about having FTTPoD or a Fibre Ethernet (Leased Line) service? They're very different things and it isn't clear from your post.

If you had FTTPoD installed, then after the initial term you can migrate that like any normal FTTP service between providers (eg if we're talking of FTTPoD via Openreach).

If you're on about some sort of Fibre Service from some altnet type, you might have no option sure, as they might not have any wholesale options for other providers, and even if they do choice could be very limited.

If you're however talking about Fibre Ethernet then that's a whole heap of different - it isn't the same as the FTTP type of service and not compatible - so no, you can't take that and 'convert' it to PON/FTTP service with anyone, and thus have a domestic fibre service.

Which thing are you actually talking about?

The subject specifically says a leased line.
The 3 year minimum term on FTTPoD ended in 2018. Since then it has been a 12 month minimum term.
WBC FTTP doesn't become available after the minimum term, but as soon as the FTTPoD is ready to go live. It isn't available.

For those 3 reasons I think it's pretty clear this is a leased line and not FTTPoD.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 27-Feb-24 18:00:07)

Results of investigations.

The connection in place is a 100Mbps leased line (Fibre to the premises). It has been in place for 3 years.
It was a new connection and was installed because high speed internet (FTTC) was not available.
For info, Openreach connectivity is 1.4Km away (about 1 mile) and there are no plans in place to have this ‘area’ updated anytime soon.
This is a domestic property where the ‘user’ works from home. (Just average Sharepoint document access and a few Zoom calls) Therefore not data intensive and no real requirement for intense SLA’s (Mobile tethering actually works fine as a backup).
The plan was to see the initial 3-year installation contract through with extortionate pricing, and then revert back to ‘normal’ domestic high speed internet.
Having spent over £12,800 in the 3 years, it was thought that we could go back to about £50 per month with what was assumed as normal, average internet speed/connectivity.
But noooooooooo, not a chance!
Apparently, even though we may have a perfectly good (nearly new) fibre connection from the property to the exchange. It’s the wrong gender or wrong pronoun or something, and they can’t plug that into the domestic internet service in the exchange.
The current provider does not provide any domestic solution and although the 3-year term is up, the price still remains £300 + VAT (Rounded up to ‘round’ figures), although we could continue on a one month rolling contract with a three (yes, 3) month notice period.
On contacting other providers, it seems that they would need to do a FULL survey (possibly replacing the ‘new’ fibre we had installed not long ago) and sign up to another lengthy period with similar extortionate costs (maybe a difference of £25 or so, shopping around)
Talk about money for ‘old rope’….
It seems that it is not possible to have a leased line without certain (not required) guarantees that they would likely ‘break’ anyway!
Therefore my options are:
1. Keep paying ridiculous prices for an over specified ‘business’ leased line at 100Mb
2. Opt for a slow (10Mb – 30Mb) domestic broadband line
3. Try Elon’s Skynet!

Option 3 looks to be favourable at the moment, because if the equipment is purchased at the start (about 2 months worth of current payments), then the monthly cost will be approx. £75 per month for 300Mbps

I’ve looked into speed, reliability and latency, and its all fine, REALLY!

So, Unless anyone has some compelling evidence that I’m unaware of, then I think my mind is made up!

You're using the terms leased line and FTTP interchangeably still, which is probably where a lot of this confusion is coming from. You say that the plan was to see out the contract and then revert to a domestic package - where did this plan come from? If the company that sold you the leased line proposed it and you have that in writing then it's probably time to speak to a solicitor.

From my perspective it seems like you have made a lot of assumptions which unfortunately were incorrect.

Edited by jpm (Wed 28-Feb-24 11:46:01)

Quite JPM, Larry or his company should have gone FTTPoD route but went leased lines instead...

i'm utterly confused by the text as well as he's using two different products interchangeably and along with that, ranting ...... We don't know the product nor the company who was involved.

The price can't have been that ridiculous if you've been happy to pay for it for 3 years! If all you are doing is "average sharepoint document access and a few Zoom calls" then I'd suggest getting some nice cheap Plusnet or some other bargain basement broadband and be done with it.

I also cannot believe you only had 100Mbps for that price, I'd have thought 1Gbit would have been available at not much more - either way, definitely sounds like you have an Ethernet leased line service to me with no easy way of moving it to a cheaper provider.

For what it's worth I have Starlink and it's fine - the latency is higher than even copper FTTC broadband, but the speed is very good, 100-300mbps depending on the time of day. Usually faster in the evenings.

In reply to a post by _Larry_:

The plan was to see the initial 3-year installation contract through with extortionate pricing, and then revert back to ‘normal’ domestic high speed internet.
Having spent over £12,800 in the 3 years, it was thought that we could go back to about £50 per month with what was assumed as normal, average internet speed/connectivity.

Nope, that's confusing FTTPoD and regular Fibre Ethernet - the former works that way, the latter doesn't - it's different technology.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The subject specifically says a leased line.
The 3 year minimum term on FTTPoD ended in 2018. Since then it has been a 12 month minimum term.
WBC FTTP doesn't become available after the minimum term, but as soon as the FTTPoD is ready to go live. It isn't available.

For those 3 reasons I think it's pretty clear this is a leased line and not FTTPoD.

Except the poster has been talking about things that sound like FTTPoD but thanks for your catty response.

In reply to a post by _Larry_:

Apparently, even though we may have a perfectly good (nearly new) fibre connection from the property to the exchange. It’s the wrong gender or wrong pronoun or something, and they can’t plug that into the domestic internet service in the exchange.

Ignoring your stupid commentary about pronouns, they're not the same thing.

The 'domestic' thing you're talking about is GPON - passive optical. The leased line (Fibre Ethernet) is an active fibre setup.

Goes to very different equipment, works differently, different network infrastructure etc.

There is, to put it nicely 'sod all' chance you'll get to use that fibre for a 'domestic' type of service (eg FTTP) for £50... none, nada. zilch.

Did you bother to read and learn anything from the posts between your opening post and your second post as those explained clearly why you cannot convert your leased line to a traditional cheap FTTP service. Nothing has changed in the last 3 years so honestly you should have got clarity from the leased line company before embarking on an extremely expensive 3 year contract with nothing at the end of it. As others have said if you had gone for FTTPoD you would have had the outcome you wanted.

In reply to a post by _Larry_:

. . . Mobile tethering actually works fine as a backup . . ..

If the mobile tethering works fine have you considered ditching any sort of landline connection and using just the mobile signal through a proper router? You are not setting a very high barrier if your landline option is only 10 - 30 Mb.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

Did you bother to read and learn anything from the posts between your opening post and your second post as those explained clearly why you cannot convert your leased line to a traditional cheap FTTP service.

Looks like someone made the wrong choice of service, now wants to lay the blame elsewhere.

A 30mb standard FTTC broadband service should be fine for Zoom and Sharepoint access.

Alternatively, so long as there's no gaming going on in the house, then a 4G/5G service would be fine (unlimited data about £30/month)

Your service, as everyone else has mentioned CANNOT be moved to a residential service, as what you had installed was a Leased Line, which is NOT in any way related to Residential FTTP (you aren't on the PON Fibre network, you have a Fibre direct to the exchange).

It is unfortunate, but as has previously been mentioned, unless you have in writing from your ISP that it could be converted to a standard FTTP, you really have no recourse,

You could (if you don't work for yourself) go back to the office to work until you have a solution in? Or could work pay for a portion of your broadband? I know this happens in some sectors.

Thank you to everyone who has given their input to this thread.
I've learned something from all this.
Fibre connectivity is not necessarily interchangeable.
To use an analogy, fuel for a vehicle comes in many forms, but all of them propel and or operate the vehicle, and the fuel is sourced in different ways but ultimately do the same job!
For clarity, I inherited this leased line installation from the person who had this set up (it was an installation for one of our directors homes)
Because it's coming up for renewal, my remit is to look into a cost effective solutions/replacement.
I now know that fibre comes in different forms, like computers. If you're unfortunate enough to have wasted your money on an Apple product, generally your now stuck with freely opening up your wallet to them unnecessarily.
I just threw that one in, because I know it will trigger some folks (just like the pronoun comment) )))

Why are you writing posts "that (you) know will trigger some folks" on a forum that you've come to for help?

Fibre connectivity is not necessarily interchangeable.

Physical fibre is pretty much never interchangeable. The provider that installs it owns it and it will pretty much never be possible to move from one provider (at the network level) to another.

OpenReach only install OpenReach fibre and will only use the fibre they installed - they then wholesale it to service providers to sell a service to the customer. This is the case for every physical network provider I can think of - it is also why in some places there are now 3 or 4 different fibre cables running to premises because different providers have networked up the area.

In addition, the fibre technology OpenReach install for leased lines is different to that used for FTTP and therefore they will not convert one to the other (technically they could but it would make a unique solution that would be more expensive to support).

I think the better comparison would have been Mac and PC. It is slightly different now but if you bought a Mac you could only run Mac applications and licenses were generally for the Mac version. If you bought a PC then you could run DOS, Windows and Linux type systems (and others, not going to attempt to list them all). If you bought an application for Windows you could only run it on Windows. If you wanted to switch from one platform to the other then you essentially started from scratch and even a lot of the peripherals were specific to a platform.

Whilst there is a level of lock in on the mobile world you can move from one Apple to Android and back (I have) but any apps bought for one platform would need to be repurchased and some apps are not available on both. Of course Apple also had there own charging connectors that weren't compatible with anyone else but that is changing. It's not really something to trigger most people, just a fact of life and most people stick with one platform or the other.

Not to pour cold water on this, but it sounds awfully like a walter mitty type situation here - Pheasant et al may be able to attest to this, as we've had similar posts before.

Reasons to believe:
- You mention this is a Domestic property, but you also mention it was an instalisation that was taken over from a previous directors home? Is this is a business property, are you the owner, is this for domestic use or business use?

- £355 month for a Domestic property connection for 100MB when you have a 30MB FTTC avaliable, for the classic £30 a month, means you or the owner either had money to burn et or were massively mis-sold something. But again, i can;t understand how you got to either conclsuion.

- The FTTPoD is what you are describing allows you to access the WBC FTTP at the end of the contract, but again this would of been clearly stated that you could exit after 12 months for example with cerebus and this has been the case for over 3+ years now.

I'm sorry if this is a genuine case, but you have spaffed £12,800 up the wall with clearly little benefit, and have not done research .

Depending on the company size it's pretty normal to spend less than £400 a month on making sure the director can reliably do a video call - three years ago has the service going in at the end of 2020 when nobody was sure how long remote work was going to be the only type of office work. There's no point paying a company director fat stacks, a job that mainly involves them selling the virtues of the business to others, and then not have them able to reliably do that for the sake of maybe £20 per working day.

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Not to pour cold water on this, but it sounds awfully like a walter mitty type situation here - Pheasant et al may be able to attest to this, as we've had similar posts before.

I did wonder and the comment about pronouns made it pretty clear.

You were thinking about https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4735528-sw... among a number of other threads I imagine. I was, coincidentally, looking for some information on Openreach backhauling cabinets with microwave and for whatever reason that thread appeared in the Google search results.