Virgin Media Monopoly

Hi all,

Just throwing this out there to see if there are any other options that mean we don't have to deal with Virgin Media's absolute scam of a "service". Almost daily service drops, daily ping spikes, regular packet loss.

Worth mentioning I am a very technically minded person, and have been with Virgin media for years out of no other choices available to us. We'd step down to FTTC if we could, but Openreach refused to install a phone line citing safety issues with our telephone poles in the street. I've even considered 4G/5G but signal is poor at our home, even upstairs.

Basically, we're stuck with Virgin Media. We pay £92 p/m for 500mbps and Basic TV with BT Sport. Virgin keeps increasing prices inline with RPI, refusing to give us any discount on our package like others seem to be able to do so easily. I've even had others that I know have scored discounts from threatening to leave jump on the phone pretending to be me, and be shocked at how stubborn they are with us. I think they know there's a monopoly for them here and we'll stay without any other options to us. Lots of friends online with other options available to them seem to have few, but not no problems, little engineer visits, or if they do have engineer visits due to faults, they're able to get the service fixed and back online going months between serious issues. They do experience this national virgin media outage that usually occurs between 12am-2am usually at least weekly, but sometimes can be 2 weeks between. If you've not noticed it, consider yourself lucky because it's extremely annoying.

There are no plans to build out FTTP from CityFibre or Openreach here, despite the full area around us being connected. I live in Kearsley BL4 if you wish to check the maps out for yourself on exactly where we are compared to the build plans - this isn't some rich area out in the sticks. I cannot understand why several hundred homes are not part of these plans.

Here's some graphs showing the failures in service for the past 2 weeks only:


03/04/2024 - Increased latency
31/03/2024 - Increased latency, overnight drops
30/03/2024 - Peak time & short morning drop
27/03/2024 - Degraded Service, impossible to game online
22/03/2024 - multiple hour outage

As you can probably tell, when it's great - it's great. But having almost 50% of days containing some sort of degraded service or outright failure is a joke. This can't be normal, can it?

Thanks in advance, happy to hear any advise here. If there's nothing that can be done, I'll accept compassion.

Steve

Edited by gergy008 (Thu 04-Apr-24 00:10:10)

Have to considered Starlink ?

It is cheaper than what you are currently paying, but obviously won’t give you the TV side of things.

We’ve been using it for our Internet connection for nearly three years now. It has proved to be reliable. At 200-300 down and 15-30 up it is far faster than the 11/3 FTTC we had (and more reliable than 4G which was fine until the evening peak).

You do need somewhere for the dish that has a clear view of most of the sky though.

In reply to a post by gergy008:

But having almost 50% of days containing some sort of degraded service or outright failure is a joke. This can't be normal, can it?

On VM, yes it can.

VM was built out of the ashes of a whole load of regional cable operators. Depending on which one you're on, and how oversubscribed your segment is, performance can be terrible. But other areas get good performance.

In the long term, VM will be replacing the HFC with fibre, but don't hold your breath. 85% of the country will have OR FTTP by Dec 2026, you're more likely to get that first.

In reply to a post by gergy008:

Openreach refused to install a phone line citing safety issues with our telephone poles in the street.

Am I wrong in thinking Openreach have a universal service obligation to (within exceptional financial limits) provide a phone line to all addresses in the UK (excluding Hull)?

My saga with Virgin Media since 2019 could fill a trilogy longer than Lord of the Rings...the extended versions.

It got to the point where my wife and I were in a constant state of anger, her mostly over the billing side, me mostly over latency.

In my town Clevedon nestled in North Somerset indeed Virgin had the entire monopoly over anyone who wanted fast broadband, its that or stick to copper. The Cable network they were using existed long before and Virgin came along and punted their product down it.

On the one hand, great, thanks for being inventive and supplying 100Mbps plus for everyone but in reality the signal around here was always a balance and the error correction on my router was going nuts which resulted unfavorable latency. Attenuators and so on would be fitted in case of their being too much power, in some cases there wasnt enough power and all whilst we were having to pay 60 quid one year then suddenly asked to pay 120 the next, bargaining then reducing our package to get it back down to something reasonable.

By far and away the worst thing that happened to us was when we knew Openreach Fibre was arriving, luckily for us our 18mo contract was finished with Virgin in the August and the Openreach work was due to finish in September.

Called virgin to say we didnt want to renew for 18mo and please put us on a rolling contract for just broadband, after hours on the phone they agreed, but we were stupid, we didnt follow up and check online.

When I was provisioned with BT FTTP in Jan I called Virgin to give one months notice, they said you are on a 18month contract and need to pay 500 quid to exit.....I looked online and there is was, an 18month renewal on the day we had the phone call. Somehow I had to accept responsibility and blame myself for not checking.

After many more hours or arguments and phone calls to various people eventually after pointing out to the right person that all your calls are recorded, you can pull this call up and hear what was said. Someone finally had mercy, I might add just to even get onto a 'rolling' contract we had to pay almost twice the value of the service as if we had renewed for 18mo. So we ended up paying rolling contract charges for an 18mo contract, which was another point I made. I said why on earth would I cancel everything apart from broadband and then pay more, it doesnt add up.

Anyway, finally we left and ive been enjoying FTTP since 900/110 and its been glorious, this does not help you but I wanted to offer my compassion because we really went through the ringer with them, the only other service I could get to my house was copper based and would give me about 30Mbps down and 5 up....alas, Virgin had the monopoly.

Hopefully now they will start to see that they need to up their game in some areas because Openreach are opening up a new world of ISP's for FTTP, even Truespeed are there also.

Oh yeah I also got a really good TV package with BT, all skysports and TNT for £41, I maintain the same access to NOW and Discovery Plus so Im not just limited to the box in the main lounge. So im paying 80 quid all in, which yes is alot but I do have all the sport there is. That price is locked for 2 years and then there is many other ISP's you can join as a new customer.

Check out my switch over day, the latency improvement was crazy, btw all the spikes on the right are my constantly running speed tests maxing out the line because I was over excited, the spikes on the left however were just random....

In the real world of course my download speed is crazy which is wonderful for Steam Updates and PS5 but online gaming, ive gone from a ping of 30-50 to 8-15.

Switch Over

There is a USO, the basic terms on Ofcom site are:

Subject to the Conditions set out in Section 2, BT is required to provide Broadband Services
where all of the following criteria are met:
a) the Broadband Connection requested is to a fixed location which is a Premises;
b) Alternative Broadband Services at a price less than, or equal to, the Eligibility Threshold:
(i) are not available to that location; and
(ii) will not be made available to that location through a publicly-funded intervention
within the period of one year beginning with the date on which the Request is
made;
c) the provision of the Broadband Connection requested:
(i) will cost no more than £3,400 excluding VAT; or
(ii) will cost more than £3,400 excluding VAT, but any Excess Costs will be paid by the
USO Customer.

As alternative broadband services are available (from Virgin) then the USO would not apply. They already have a phone line - they have issues with the supplier that provides it but that isn't enough for USO to kick in.

Edited by ian72 (Thu 04-Apr-24 13:39:42)

In reply to a post by ian72:

They already have a phone line - they have issues with the supplier that provides it but that isn't enough for USO to kick in.

I think you are thinking about the USO for broadband whereas I think there always was and still is a USO for the phone line.
Ofcom says:

Part 3: Conditions
Section 1: Conditions applicable to Telephony Services and Broadband Services
Conditions A.1 to A.4 – Provision of Telephony Services and Broadband Services
A.1 BT must provide one or both of the following upon request:
a) subject to Condition A.2, Telephony Services;
b) subject to Condition A.3, Broadband Services.
A.2 BT is required to provide Telephony Services where the request in respect of the Telephony
Services is reasonable.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018...

Forget about broadband, that says BT must provide a phone line. The OP says they've been refused, I'm questioning if they can.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In the long term, VM will be replacing the HFC with fibre, but don't hold your breath. 85% of the country will have OR FTTP by Dec 2026, you're more likely to get that first.

VM are competing, they're saying their DOCSIS Coax footprint will be converted to FTTP by 2028...
https://www.telecomstechnews.com/news/2021/jul/29/vi...

The same applies - they can already get a phone line, from Virgin. I don't think you'll find the phone USO applies when a provider can already provide a phone line to a property.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I don't think you'll find the phone USO applies when a provider can already provide a phone line to a property.

If you can find that get out in the regs, I'm wrong. See if you can find the quote. Otherwise they clearly say BT must provide a phone line. I can't see any if or buts.
It's my suggestion for the OP to put pressure on BT or if it comes to it their MP. Even if I'm wrong, OP can still use the quote and something might get things moving.

There is a general get-out: "where the request in respect of the Telephony Services is reasonable."

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There is a general get-out: "where the request in respect of the Telephony Services is reasonable."

It's not unreasonable, IMO, to want choice in which provider to use for Telephony Services. While it looks like Virgin Media will eventually allow other providers to use their network, that's not the case today.

OP: have you tried different providers? This might be a job for A&A -- they seem quite good at "encouraging" Openreach to do the right thing.

Go with Starlink - free hardware offers now and then. (mostly see the Starlink ads on Facebook)

Get Sky Online Stream TV package.

Sorted.

In reply to a post by behuk:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There is a general get-out: "where the request in respect of the Telephony Services is reasonable."

It's not unreasonable, IMO, to want choice in which provider to use for Telephony Services. While it looks like Virgin Media will eventually allow other providers to use their network, that's not the case today.

OP: have you tried different providers? This might be a job for A&A -- they seem quite good at "encouraging" Openreach to do the right thing.

the op has suggested "but Openreach refused to install a phone line citing safety issues with our telephone poles in the street." that would indicate pole replacement, now if theres more than one that needs to be replaced then that will be done, question is when. A&A may not have any more leverage than the OP has.

They are a hit and miss ISP.

I have been with VM three times now.

First occasion absolutely horrific congestion issues.
Second occasion congested as well, but generally more usable, not on the same scale as first property.
Third occasion - current, its like VM is a different ISP, no visible congestion on throughput, aside from a period on the upstream before they got DOCSIS 3.1 upstream working in my area, graphs are same peak as off peak as well. DOCSIS 3.1 seems to be something thats transformed them.

In terms of reliability its been a breath of fresh air, previous DSL providers I had to get used to regular 0-6am outages as intrusive maintenance seemed to be done liberally. This was with Sky, and AAISP via TTB. AAISP only got bad enough to annoy me towards the end though when TTB had hit massive issues.
On Virgin Media I think I have had one outage I know for sure was network, the rest I think were all hub 5 related and even then was maybe half a dozen max in 18 months, a vast improvement.

The issue with VM of course is there approach to old customers, my price triples end of this month, and I tried to negotiate, the offer was circa £40 more than they have been offering other customers, no consistency at all from them what they offer to one customer to the next. I am someone who has been known to tolerate paying higher than average for broadband, which I accept if thats what everyone pays on the ISP, but that isnt the case with VM.

When I mentioned cityfibre to them, they made no attempt at all to price match.

My advice is if they are showing you have no value to them and you have no alternative, then go through with cancellation even if you have a short time of no service and then signup again as a new customer.

Also if only on a hub 3 which might be the case on 500mbps, try to find a way to get a hub 5, as the 3.1 channels might help your performance problems, although not sure if you need to be on gig1 to get access to them still.

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 15-Apr-24 19:54:30)

Does the phone line USO apply now that WLR is stop-sell?

The linked version of the regs was published recently (17 March 2023), so I think so. It defines:

“Telephony Service” means either or both a connection at a fixed location
to the Public Communications Network and access to Publicly Available Telephone
Services, including the ability to make and receive calls;

I'm pretty sure that allows BT to provide such a service how they like, e.g. as digital voice over broadband, or over a mobile radio network.

Well I have some good news!

Thank you for your suggestions everyone, the USO you'd all talked about here was the key. I contacted EE again this week - we've finally managed to get Openreach to install a new line for us, which was made live as of Friday. The difference this time, I'd told them about the price of the lowest package available with Virgin which forms part of the USO rules - meant that this time Openreach successfully installed the line.

---

Since around the time I created this thread until before now, I'd spoken to EE a few times on this topic. I didn't know at first that I could ask for USO. After reading the suggestions here, I asked for USO back in May from EE. Openreach contacted me back after inspecting the property and left. Openreach called the next day, asked some questions, quoting the same issues with the post due to costs, but on this time they mentioned that the existing service is reasonable so I wouldn't be eligible for the USO. I wasn't happy about it, but the guy breaking the news again on the phone did sound empathetic, knowledge and experienced.

Now this latest attempt started once I'd noticed that Openreach FTTP status updated from "Unavailable" to "Not yet available". I dug around for an explanation into why, all of a sudden there's a minor change to the wording. In June, our local exchange was added to build plans in the newest update.

So I waited until our Virgin contract ends in October to try again. We'd constantly been on a ball-and-chain with Virgin because what seems to be affordable for the duration of the contract is massively unaffordable, almost double when it expires and we don't (didn't) have the option to choose anyone else so we end up renewing.

I read all of the USO doc. The problem with @candlerb 's suggestion is the Virgin line did work in that whenever tested we'd normally see a high speed, but although experiencing those intermittent issues it was (In my eyes easy to prove) but not easy to keep working. Despite being actually genuinely blackmailed by Virgin media into losing a phone number we've had for 20+ years, it unfortunately still qualifies as "where the request in respect of the Telephony Services is reasonable.".

HOWEVER. There is a clause on the price of the lowest available package to a new customer, and - well that's a different story. As far as I can see what what appears to be the latest version of the "unofficial" USO rules, it mentions that the price of the package must be equal or less than £46.50. Well, that new information is all I needed to convince myself to try again.

Virgins' cheapest broadband-only service, in this area, is £54 without factoring the new customer offer.
That was all I needed to get the guy to put my order through as USO. Armed with this info, this new EE bloke - who was already very empathetic and understanding about our previous issues with installing the line - put the order through as they usually do.

Openreach came around and installed the line. Day 1, inspection on the existing line, explained the issues - the guy says yep, back post will be really hard to do - overgrown bushes, neighbours blocking access, completely overgrown vegetation, basically undoable. Might be able to do post in the street but the post is outdated, and not climbable (It does lean, I spotted that too) & requires a "hoist".
Day two, didn't hear anything.
Day three two Openreach vans and a cherry picker turned up. New line installed on the leaning post in the street and now we're up and running.

---

Yeah, the speed will suck for a bit, but it's not that bad. It works, it's manageable. The ping is surprisingly good. Just need to hold out for the free upgrade to 150Mb when the fibre comes through in the next couple of years.