Altnet FTTP install question (underground wiring)

Hey all

FTTP Installation from HeyBroadband Pic

First question, can anyone tell me what this is highlighted in the red box? I've noticed Altnet's tend to have this ... I think I've seen CityFibre have this too.

Second question, does BTWholesale based FTTP also have the same method of installation i.e the equipment highlighted in the red box located on pavement level?

TIA!

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 24-Jun-24 11:08:46)

It’s called something like a Tommy Pot, or Toby Pot (or similar) if you order from the equipment owner, then they will come dig from the pot to your property.

Most Openreach FTTP does not use this method (there are some exceptions)

It’s a toby box and as can be seen , their is a scar in the footpath from an Openreach JRF4 footway jointbox to the Alt Net toby box ,the Alt Net obviously uses Openreach PIA , to gain access to Openreach ducts and jointboxes in that area and adds their own final section to potential customer’s properties.

….chances are it’s an underground DIG served area and that particular Alt Net has chosen to continue to use an underground method of service instead of putting up poles , but obviously they have to provide the last part of the underground network themselves …if the address that the toby box is outside orders service from the Alt Net an excavation from the toby box to the property is undertaken once that’s done cabling is installed using the duct and Toby box the Alt Net provided and the existing Openreach infrastructure to get to wherever the Alt Net equipment is located.

In the past , areas like this ( underground DIG no existing duct to houses ) Openreach would have also provided their own toby boxes in the same way as this Alt Net has done ( when they upgraded a DIG area to FTTP) but doing this without a customer order simply makes the Alt Nets job even easier when they rock up , so now , OR would only excavate from a jointbox like the one in the picture to the house wall once an order for FTTP has been received, the area will show FTTP available but the toby boxes won’t exist , in fact they don’t use them anymore , the duct they provide when an order is received goes from the jointbox to the house wall .

If an Alt Net provides a toby box it’s exclusively for their own use , if Openreach provides a toby box it’s available to competitors via PIA often even before Openreach can get the benefit of it themselves ( , if an Alt Net signs up the householder first) , hence the change in policy

Edited by Iniltous (Mon 24-Jun-24 13:13:49)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Most Openreach FTTP does not use this method (there are some exceptions)

Really?! So the fibre wire goes from the BT underground manhole to the customers outside CSP via the existing duct (the one that's currently used for the BT copper phone line)??

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 24-Jun-24 13:23:15)

ONTs are not on the outside but the inside of the property , it’s a CSP on the external wall

Edited by Iniltous (Mon 24-Jun-24 13:18:25)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

ONTs are not on the outside but the inside of the property , it’s a CSP on the external wall

Yes sorry, the CSP!

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 24-Jun-24 13:28:46)

In reply to a post by Bobby_Valentino:

So the fibre wire goes from the BT underground manhole to the customers outside CSP via the existing duct (the one that's currently used for the BT copper phone line)??

If the property has a lead-in duct and it's in serviceable condition, then yes, that's the preferred way in.

A key benefit of ducting is that it allows cables to be replaced, or new ones to be laid alongside existing ones. Altnets can rent space in them too.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Bobby_Valentino:

So the fibre wire goes from the BT underground manhole to the customers outside CSP via the existing duct (the one that's currently used for the BT copper phone line)??

If the property has a lead-in duct and it's in serviceable condition, then yes, that's the preferred way in.

A key benefit of ducting is that it allows cables to be replaced, or new ones to be laid alongside existing ones. Altnets can rent space in them too.

Here's a pic of my CityFibre CSP showing the CF microduct emerging from the BT duct:
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1tqh5j5PuKodW_GVulQ?e...

Here's a pic of my CityFibre CSP showing the CF microduct emerging from the BT duct:

They’ve brought that out from the duct below ground level, not exactly smart practice. Allowing egress of dirt and muck to the duct, and ruin it for all. Also they’ve made a pinch point where the tubing is coming up through the clart.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Bobby_Valentino:

So the fibre wire goes from the BT underground manhole to the customers outside CSP via the existing duct (the one that's currently used for the BT copper phone line)??

If the property has a lead-in duct and it's in serviceable condition, then yes, that's the preferred way in.

A key benefit of ducting is that it allows cables to be replaced, or new ones to be laid alongside existing ones. Altnets can rent space in them too.

Forgot to mention but the ducting I have isn't all the way to the external CSP ... it's goes from the BT manwhole and past the front wall into the start of the front garden - from there it runs from the ground along the side of the wall to the external CSP on the property. The ducting is like a hose pipe type of thing. See pic here

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 24-Jun-24 21:28:50)

That’s a very small duct .

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

That’s a very small duct .

That's what houses built in the ~'30's gets you I guess.

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Mon 24-Jun-24 23:12:34)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Here's a pic of my CityFibre CSP showing the CF microduct emerging from the BT duct:

They’ve brought that out from the duct below ground level, not exactly smart practice. Allowing egress of dirt and muck to the duct, and ruin it for all. Also they’ve made a pinch point where the tubing is coming up through the clart.

The duct terminates where it did when it was installed in 1988, when a few inches of it was full of muck, which never caused any problems.
I've just been out and had a look at it, though. It is plugged with plastic, bubble wrap or similar, I didn't take it out to look, so it's much better than it was under the BT regimen. And who else is going to be affected by any rubbish that gets in the duct between my house and the BT chamber? It, and others nearby, is more likely to be damaged by the roots from the rowan planted near the chamber.

Can't see any sign of any alleged pinch point.

The duct terminates where it did when it was installed in 1988, when a few inches of it was full of muck, which never caused any problems.
I've just been out and had a look at it, though. It is plugged with plastic, bubble wrap or similar, I didn't take it out to look, so it's much better than it was under the BT regimen. And who else is going to be affected by any rubbish that gets in the duct between my house and the BT chamber? It, and others nearby, is more likely to be damaged by the roots from the rowan planted near the chamber.

Can't see any sign of any alleged pinch point.

OK, the foam bung is in place. Good.

I didn’t say it would affect anyone else, but if your duct got blocked, that wouldn’t be ideal. Less chance if the bung is in situ.

As for the suggested pinch point .. once out above the bung there is, or ought to be, a flared base bringing the flat rectangular connector bend 101 together. Your picture would seem to show the fibre appearing from below ground level outside of this housing. That’s the bit I’d cast aspersions on.

Any way, not here to argue the toss. If you are happy with your install, then that’s good.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

in fact they don’t use them anymore , the duct they provide when an order is received goes from the jointbox to the house wall .

At the moment we have a hose pipe tubing that literally provides ducting from the BT joint box that just goes underground just past the front garden brick wall, the tubing stops there as soon as it emerges above ground (front of garden). From here on the phone line runs along the side wall (shared with the neighbour) along to the CSP on the house wall.

Will BT follow this same approach for the fibre wire or will they actually install ducting all the way to the house wall? If so that would mean digging the length of the front garden to lay the ducting which will involve quite a bit of digging.

Edited by Bobby_Valentino (Thu 04-Jul-24 11:02:43)

BT won’t do anything, presumably you mean Openreach ,
Providing duct the entire way from the jointbox to the house wall is the correct method, and really the best method, but until an order is made and the grounds work people turn up it’s impossible to say if this is mandatory , they may well negotiate and provide whatever is your preference, if it’s a realistic proposition then will probably agree , so if your preference was to copy the existing copper route and have duct only to the garden wall and then cable on the garden wall to the house wall ( to avoid some excavation and reinstatement ) they may well agree ( it’s less work for them )

COW , cable on wall is perfectly acceptable , after all if the duct entry were at the front of the property but the ONT was required at the rear , they would look to run the cable on the wall from front to rear of the property , so no real difference providing cable on a dividing wall or house wall , the only potential issue is if the wall between you and your neighbour at some point was to be demolished, then the cable would obviously need to be moved underground at your expense, whereas at installation it would be ‘free’

Edited by Iniltous (Thu 04-Jul-24 12:49:10)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

BT won’t do anything, presumably you mean Openreach ,
Providing duct the entire way from the jointbox to the house wall is the correct method, and really the best method, but until an order is made and the grounds work people turn up it’s impossible to say if this is mandatory , they may well negotiate and provide whatever is your preference, if it’s a realistic proposition then will probably agree , so if your preference was to copy the existing copper route and have duct only to the garden wall and then cable on the garden wall to the house wall ( to avoid some excavation and reinstatement ) they may well agree ( it’s less work for them )

COW , cable on wall is perfectly acceptable , after all if the duct entry were at the front of the property but the ONT was required at the rear , they would look to run the cable on the wall from front to rear of the property , so no real difference providing cable on a dividing wall or house wall , the only potential issue is if the wall between you and your neighbour at some point was to be demolished, then the cable would obviously need to be moved underground at your expense, whereas at installation it would be ‘free’

I actually wouldn't mind them digging the whole way to get the ducting in as it would future proof things for any future wires!

But good to know thanks!

We're seeing this almost exclusively in the UG plant being installed for the R100 rural build up in Scotland, and quite a bit of it where they've installed new ducting for DIG areas.

1" 'microduct' that was used for a period of time back in probably the 70s or 80s (I think). It can be very hit or miss as to whether it's useable - we've had some where the drop cable has gone through with no issues and others where we've had to use a ton of duct lube to even get the rods through. Usually capped with a rubber gas seal at the premises end as well.

All the DIG estates in my city are microtrenched with tobys (openreach)

There was a change in policy from Openreach in the last year or so , estates built in the 1960’s through to the 1980’s were DIG and the FTTP upgrade was to provide a toby box outside each dwelling, this has an advantage of being cost effective from a civils point of view ( one very large and expensive visit to an area picking up all addresses ) but has the disadvantage of providing access to properties that may never take up FTTP ( currently around 30% so in effect if a scheme were £100k , £70k of that expenditure is not showing any return in the short term ) and a second disadvantage is OR have made life much easier for the competition, to the extent that the 70% of properties that shun the OR offer may wait and sign up with the competitors when they turn up , and OR never get the benefit of that new infrastructure apart from a peppercorn ‘rent’ , that’s assuming the Alt Net ever acknowledges they have used this new infrastructure in the first place , and don’t just squat in that new part of the OR network , short of following the Alt Net around, it relies on the Alt Nets honesty, we may have a differing view on their integrity,

Anyway the policy has changed , CBT’s provided to the footway boxes only , the ‘final’ excavation to the property only done if and when an order is received, and because its pointless in these cases to interrupt the duct run with an unnecessary toby box, the duct is continuous from box to house , the advantages are obviously the civils spend has an immediate return, and the competition can’t get in first , disadvantage is you may return time and again to the same area in a piecemeal fashion and that will be ultimately more expensive should universal take up ever be achieved .

There is always the chance that the policy changes again

Edited by Iniltous (Sun 07-Jul-24 11:54:06)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

There was a change in policy from Openreach in the last year or so , estates built in the 1960’s through to the 1980’s were DIG and the FTTP upgrade was to provide a toby box outside each dwelling, this has an advantage of being cost effective from a civils point of view ( one very large and expensive visit to an area picking up all addresses ) but has the disadvantage of providing access to properties that may never take up FTTP ( currently around 30% so in effect if a scheme were £100k , £70k of that expenditure is not showing any return in the short term ) and a second disadvantage is OR have made life much easier for the competition, to the extent that the 70% of properties that shun the OR offer may wait and sign up with the competitors when they turn up , and OR never get the benefit of that new infrastructure apart from a peppercorn ‘rent’ , that’s assuming the Alt Net ever acknowledges they have used this new infrastructure in the first place , and don’t just use squat in that new part of the OR network , short of following the Alt Net around, it relies on the Alt Nets honesty, we may have a differing view on their integrity,

Anyway the policy has changed , CBT’s provided to the footway boxes only , the ‘final’ excavation to the property only done if and when an order is received, and because its pointless in these cases to interrupt the duct run with an unnecessary toby box, the duct is continuous from box to house , the advantages are obviously the civils spend has an immediate return, and the competition can’t get in first , disadvantage is you may return time and again to the same area in a piecemeal fashion and that will be ultimately more expensive should universal take up ever be achieved .

There is always the chance that the policy changes again

Is there any literature on BT/BT Openreach's website - that you can link to (about this change in policy) that says anything about the ducting being installed from the BT manhole all the way to the external premises wall and not using Tobyboxes?

No , OR’s policy is no one’s business but their own , and from the ISP point of view it’s immaterial , OR show availability, the ISP, should they order service for a customer don’t care what method will be used , the rest is between the customer and the Openreach representative, obviously there will be cases where the ISP takes an order , the consumer once faced with the reality of providing service ( for example, the need to take up a portion of a newly installed and expensive driveway ) send OR away and cancel with the ISP , as they consider the upheaval not worth it .

OR don’t force a customer into accepting something they don’t want , they also don’t consider fanciful alternatives the consumer may suggest .

TBH , a toby box installed in advance , leaving only the customers frontage to excavate, and excavation from the appropriate footway box along a portion of the footpath ( that previously would have been excavated to provide the Toby box ) directly to the house wall is not really much of a change in process as far as the end user is concerned , but has significant initial savings for OR , in some instances where the jointbox is directly in front of the property ordering service the actual difference in one policy to the other is tiny.

Edited by Iniltous (Sun 07-Jul-24 11:50:22)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

No , OR’s policy is no one’s business but their own , and from the ISP point of view it’s immaterial , OR show availability, the ISP, should they order service for a customer don’t care what method will be used , the rest is between the customer and the Openreach representative, obviously there will be cases where the ISP takes an order , the consumer once faced with the reality of providing service ( for example, the need to take up a portion of a newly installed and expensive driveway ) send OR away and cancel with the ISP , as they consider the upheaval not worth it .

OR don’t force a customer into accepting something they don’t want , they also don’t consider fanciful alternatives the consumer may suggest .

TBH , a toby box installed in advance , leaving only the customers frontage to excavate, and excavation from the appropriate footway box along a portion of the footpath ( that previously would have been excavated to provide the Toby box ) directly to the house wall is not really much of a change in process as far as the end user is concerned , but has significant initial savings for OR , in some instances where the jointbox is directly in front of the property ordering service the actual difference in one policy to the other is tiny.

Where did you learn of this change in policy then?

If memory serves correctly probably around 15-20 months ago ,but it’s something that shouldn’t concern any potential consumer , any subsequent policy changes will no longer be known to myself, so I can’t state with 100% certainty that the policy hasn’t changed in the last 9 months , but I suspect it hasn’t, in fact the previous policy was always ( in my opinion ) counterproductive.

The obvious acid test is , if living in an address that is served by Openreach copper underground , but isn’t ducted , and Openreach FTTP is now available, and there hasn’t been recent , large scale excavation to provide toby boxes outside every property , then should an individual order service a new duct will be provided from the appropriate jointbox that houses the allocated CBT directly to the house wall , including a Toby box in this scenario is pointless as it achieves nothing useful, but as stated , in a case like yours , if some cable on wall exists that may be copied with the FTTP installation.

Policy is duct end to end,( jointbox or Toby box ) but there will always be variations , some because of the customer preference and some to make the civils operatives life easier.

Edited by Iniltous (Sun 07-Jul-24 12:12:27)