FTTP vs Leased Line (I have both and need some advice)

So I am technical but know very little about all this kind of networking, this seems like the most knowledgable place.

3 years ago I had a 100mb lease lined installed as the ASDL here was pretty poor (Canterbury). The line has been great, served its purpose. I had an ASDL backup line running as well, BT Business. I load balance across a firewalla and everything has been fine.

I recently upgraded the ASDL to FTTP so there's a BT pole outside and now I have two lines going to it, one is the leased line and the other the BT FTTP. The FTTP is 900/100 and so far those rates seem solid.

Soon I am out of contract on the leased line and I am trying to work out what to do.

Do I keep a leased line, negotiate a better rate for it or do I abandon it and get another FTTP installed or something from a different provider.

I don't know how reliable the FTTP will be, I don't know if I'm going to see contention on it. The OR engineers said I shouldn't because it's a line to the exchange. Both of these lines are going to the same pole. When I had the leased line installed OR had to dig up the road and I assume what they laid then is the basis for FTTP for the area now.

I have you fibre claiming they will be in the area and also I have seen Virgin Media knocking around.

If I was to close the leased line and get another FTTP then I would ideally like a different provider but then of course it may all be the OR network.

I understand I may be able to swap leased line suppliers too so long as the new supplier is on OR, I don't know what's involved with that and whether it is feasible.

So I am looking for some advice about whether I will see any real redundancy with a second FTTP. Whether a different supplier would give an actual different service and whether the idea of loosing the leased line means reliability will be a huge issue for me?

This is all work and I need the line. Between the main line and backup I have been running 24/7 for 3 years. Yes the leased line has been down a handful of times and the ADSL was down quite a lot. But together it's been okay.

Kindest and thanks in advance
Paul

Some with more experience will chip in with the leased line situation.

Firstly thought any fttp connection goes to a headend exchange were the olt is and not to your local exchange (unless its a head end exchange).

I'd personally either renegotiate the price for the leased line or go with another fttp network. How much bandwidth do you need if one line goes down or would like full load balancing - ie 900 and 900 ?

If you get say another OR based fttp line you will only be contenting yourself. There is contention on a fttp pon - up to 30 properties. But a dynamic contention.

What do you use your internet connection for? I doubt that you require the leased line and you'd probably be served fine with your FTTP and adding a 5G/4G failover to that service for now, and FTTP from a second physical network (YouFibre, Virgin) when available.

FTTP and leased line aka Direct Internet Access (DIA) / Ethernet service are similar but still different beasts.

There are factors beyond 'speed' which could be a key differentiator, depending on what it is you're doing with the service. For example, in broad terms, a leased line will have a better service level agreement, faster response time and repair times. Expect 24/7 monitoring and the ability to call in a problem at 3am with someone at the door by 8am. You also are on an un-contended service, at least in the 'last mile'. So long as your leased line provider has a well designed, implemented and managed network core - the service ought to performant, as low latency as nature allows and not congested.

The leased circuit will also be symmetric in terms of bandwidth - possibly something you wont really notice at 100 Mbps but could be a deal breaker if you are used to / need a higher speed upload - then you can currently get with an Openreach-based FTTP service, which for all intents and purposes tops out at c. 110 Mbps (yes there are ~220 Mbps upload variants, but very few ISP offer them as they are extremely expensive, for FTTP).

You don't mention who your leased line provider is or what you're paying so its difficult to gauge value for money.

I have experience of both FTTP and DIA service for our own business and use, with a number of providers over the years. I've recently been back out in the market negotiating a new term (in London at least) so I have a fairly good idea of what the market and prices are like. Canterbury will be a bit of different beast, as there will be naturally less native networks about, but you're not that remote that prices will out of kilter with metro prices I would have thought. I know that outside of Woodbridge (Suffolk) for example my leased line costs were approx. 30% higher than in central London and higher bandwidth tiers were less prevalent.

Having Openreach tails will help in terms of getting another leased service. Most providers will use Openreach tails if they are there already.

In Suffolk I have reverted to FTTP for the main service, away from a DIA service. We had FTTP built to us as part of an FTTP on Demand request back in 2018-19. A large chunk of that infrastructure was actually utilised as part of the DIA service - it actually made it economic to deliver with otherwise enormous excess construction costs. So FTTP helped with leased line service in some ways. The reverse however wouldn't be true - i.e. having a leased circuit installed in premises won't necessarily help you get FTTP.

In reply to a post by jpm:

What do you use your internet connection for? I doubt that you require the leased line and you'd probably be served fine with your FTTP and adding a 5G/4G failover to that service for now, and FTTP from a second physical network (YouFibre, Virgin) when available.

Combination of continuous VPN access to Azure but also post production - so moving large files around. The guaranteed 100 up was always needed vs the 10 or so I was seeing with ADSL. Now of course even the backup line can do 100 but there is a possibility that If I get a good higher bandwidth leased line quote maybe I would stick, I can never have enough upload when it comes to deadline crunch time. There is no decent 4G/5G here, for a major city the infrastructure was/is particularly bad. I'd considered starlink at one point!

thank you!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

FTTP and leased line aka Direct Internet Access (DIA) / Ethernet service are similar but still different beasts.

Super helpful reply, thank you.

So the LL is TalkTalk and I'm currently paying around £350/month. Stability has been good and yes, when there's an issue the responses have been quite good. I don't have any metrics on FTTP yet to understand how solid it might be. That's part of the issue. And if there is a problem with the line it is more likely to be at the other end I guess.

Upload is important to me, but then many services don't necessarily absorb a full 100mbit, some do though. But a single upload over a gig line as an example - I am not sure that would actually see a full bandwidth upload? So there's a range here. I've not seen any services here that go over 100 up and whilst that's been good for me so far, I would expect my needs to increase over the term of a LL contract for example.

I'd love to know what kind of ranges you're being quoted. There was a recent general shift here in Canterbury in terms of infrastructure and fibre. So the future looks promising.

My understanding is that YouFibre and VirginMedia are perhaps not on OR, and that interests me because as you say just popping another FTTP line could mean I am contending myself and not getting any redundancy and at least with the line I get redundancy. But that line goes to the same pole, so I do not know what happens there - there's a black OR box on the pole, like a police helmet and that was installed when the LL went in but now I assume that is also serving other fibre connections off that pole now.

thanks
Paul

Thanks for the update. That's helpful context. To give you some pointers, in London I was recently (as of last week) quoted under £300 pcm for a full 1G/1G DIA/Ethernet service direct from a major carrier (rather than a reseller) on a 36 month term, using their own fibre. No construction or install costs. using their own tails and network, rather than Openreach.

I can also give you various prices I've had back on 10G/10G services for a flavour of where things are at.

A few years ago, there used to be a substantive cost difference, if you were only partly using the full bandwidth for a bearer (i.e. using fractional bandwidth, perhaps with the ability to burst to the full capacity of the bearer) say 100 or 500 Mbps on a 1G bearer. These days the price differential, especially on a 3 year term, isn't that apparent. 1G in a lot of places tends to be what folks will put in as a minimum.

Some other tips:

1. Avoid resellers if you at all can. Prices are keen often, but when push comes to shove - you get what you pay for. My experience with them has been shall we say, suboptimal. I wont name, names in public but if you DM/PM me I will give you my experiences. I'm certainly not the only one either, I have had several people over the years tell me their tails of woe. It's often expensive and painful.

2. Be very aware that many network providers, even some massive ones, are now including a yearly annual RPI/CPI + % uplift in their terms. Not highlighted or even mentioned at time of quoting. Very cheeky as your wont see that until they send you a draft agreement to sign. Caveat Emptor

3. Do lots of shopping! There is still a huge variety in pricing on Ethernet services.

4. be prepared to negotiate. Hard. It's amazing how much some carriers / providers will move given enough incentive (like a chunky revenue stream for a couple of years!!)

In reply to a post by paulome:

So the LL is TalkTalk and I'm currently paying around £350/month. Stability has been good and yes, when there's an issue the responses have been quite good. I don't have any metrics on FTTP yet to understand how solid it might be. That's part of the issue. And if there is a problem with the line it is more likely to be at the other end I guess.

Upload is important to me, but then many services don't necessarily absorb a full 100mbit, some do though. But a single upload over a gig line as an example - I am not sure that would actually see a full bandwidth upload? So there's a range here. I've not seen any services here that go over 100 up and whilst that's been good for me so far, I would expect my needs to increase over the term of a LL contract for example.

If upload is important to you, then a 1G/1G leased line will give you that full capacity (subject to the target being able to absorb it as you say). You pay more more than FTTP for the privilege, although typically 1G/1G is not much more than 100M/100M.

Given that the leased line is already installed, you should be able to get a decent price for a 12-month renewal, or a 12-month term on a 1G/1G upgrade, rather than having to take out another 3 year contract.

Beware that many leased line contracts have an auto-renewal clause, which says that if you don't issue notice of termination at least 90 days before the end of the period, they will automatically renew for a full 12 month term.

As for FTTP: an Openreach FTTP service is shared by up to 30 users, with 2.4G down and 1.2G up. Since most people don't upload much, the chances are your 100M upload is not going to be congested very often.

In theory, Openreach also sell 1000/220 on FTTP, but it is priced so high at wholesale it's almost as expensive as a leased line, and I know only one provider who sells it (Cerberus). Even BT themselves don't sell it.

However, Openreach have also announced a symmetric 1G/1G FTTP service to be introduced next April. It will be only in trial areas initially. I suspect they will have to price it more reasonably, if they are hoping to compete with altnets.

Depending on where you get your FTTP from, you may be able to pay for "enhanced care" rather than "standard care", which gives you a faster response time to faults. The Aquiss FTTP pages explain this (they use standard care for residential lines, and enhanced care for business lines)

With post production, you can easily create 50gb to 100gb+ file sizes depending on the client and the end quality needed - if you need to to do a revision you will want to chuck it out in minutes not 30 minutes, so bandwidth helps. Paul will need as much upload as his budget allows him. Untill OR release xgs-pon i think the fttp market for higher speeds will be what it is now. So maybe a 12 month contract would work in his favour.

I wouldn't be too optimistic that having an EAD in already can give you 12-month term options on a 1Gb service that are appealing - EAD LA is a £2058 installation charge regardless of whether there's a physical fibre in place already. Once you add the circuit rental you're at £318/month costs from Openreach before you've supplied a CPE, put an internet service on top of it, or made any profit.

If there's a way to do a takeover of an existing EAD and avoid these connection charges then I'm not aware of it.

Edited by jpm (Wed 04-Dec-24 17:14:27)

Yeah doesn’t really from what I’ve seen. It just means they can provision much faster than their ‘standard’ 60 days…

In reply to a post by jpm:

I wouldn't be too optimistic that having an EAD in already can give you 12-month term options on a 1Gb service that are appealing - EAD LA is a £2058 installation charge regardless of whether there's a physical fibre in place already. Once you add the circuit rental you're at £318/month costs from Openreach before you've supplied a CPE, put an internet service on top of it, or made any profit.

If there's a way to do a takeover of an existing EAD and avoid these connection charges then I'm not aware of it.

I assume EAD LA is the point or the box on the existing pole? Or the connection inside the house?

I remember talktalk saying that the box was called an NTU (network termination unit) and the fibre goes into that and I get an RJ45 ethernet connection. They did say that over 300mb then that box would need changing and I would need a fibre network SPF or something similar. My internal network is 10gbe. I'd prefer an RJ45.

But if the costs from Open Reach are £318 basic then that's not looking good.

I presume TT could just switch me if they wanted to or would a 100mbit to 1gig mean actual installation in their network regardless?

thanks
Paul

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If upload is important to you, then a 1G/1G leased line will give you that full capacity (subject to the target being able to absorb it as you say). You pay more more than FTTP for the privilege, although typically 1G/1G is not much more than 100M/100M.

Given that the leased line is already installed, you should be able to get a decent price for a 12-month renewal, or a 12-month term on a 1G/1G upgrade, rather than having to take out another 3 year contract.

Really useful information here, thank you.

I'd read about 1gig symmetric but assumed that would be a little way off. And I will need to check that contract regarding auto renewal. We're actually in the last 3 months. The 12 month renewal is a great call. Gives time for the other service providers to bed in.

So 30 users at max, and is that because of the hardware on the pole or the hardware back at the exchange (or whatever it's called now for data)?

Thanks
Paul

In reply to a post by paulome:

I assume EAD LA is the point or the box on the existing pole? Or the connection inside the house?

EAD LA = Ethernet Access Direct Local Access, it is a private point-to-point circuit from your premises to an Openreach exchange. At the exchange this is connected to your ISPs network equipment.

I remember talktalk saying that the box was called an NTU (network termination unit) and the fibre goes into that and I get an RJ45 ethernet connection. They did say that over 300mb then that box would need changing and I would need a fibre network SPF or something similar.

The incoming fibre connection will be terminated on an Openreach NTE, unless you have a 'wires only' service this is connected to a router provided by the ISP which they may use various different terminology for. It maybe that the current ISP router is not capable of supporting more than 300Mbps throughput so would require replacing with something more capable.
Historically wires-only services were presented on copper for 10 and 100Mbps, or fibre for 1Gbps from the NTE. Openreach do now offer an option for copper 1Gbps too. With managed services the customer presentation from the ISP router is usually copper.

I presume TT could just switch me if they wanted to or would a 100mbit to 1gig mean actual installation in their network regardless?

It depends. Older EAD circuits upto 100/100Mbps were provisioned with a 100Mbps bearer so would require a physical upgrade from Openreach, and I'm not sure this is still offered, circuits provisioned with a 1Gbps bearer can be remotely upgraded. Also TT often had limits of 300/300Mbps due to limitations with the interconnects in and/or backhaul from the exchange to they may have to do some upgrades to support higher rates.
Installing a new connection, checking its operation, switching from old to new connection, then ceasing the old connection is the usual method to minimise any downtime.
As you have a reasonable FTTP connection then upgrading the existing connection from the same ISP may be a satisfactory approach, I don't believe there is the equivalent of a 'broadband working line takeover' for leased lines.

So 30 users at max, and is that because of the hardware on the pole or the hardware back at the exchange (or whatever it's called now for data)?

It is how Openreach organise the FTTP GPON network. Each 2.5Gbps down / 1.25Gbps up interface at the exchange provides service for upto 30 connections, if you end up as one of several continuous heavy users then you may well experience contention. Openreach publish committed rates for each speed profile, anything above the comitted rate upto the maximum for the profile is on a best effort basis. There may be other contention from the handover in the exchange into the ISPs network, but it isn't possible to find out what this is being commercially confidential to the ISPs.

I would invest some time in looking into the plans of Nextifbre (Virgin) and Netomnia (YouFibre) for your area -- they will be able to offer symmetrical speeds at normal consumer pricing.

You've got some good explanatory information and advice from the folks above Paul.

When gathering options and prices, be very clear on what it is that you want and make sure you get an apples-for-apples comparison. There is a lot of optionality, permutations and combinations with DIA services.

Also if you have some networking expertise, then it's not strictly necessary to get a 'managed service' - that is an additional router from and managed by the provider. A plain 'wires only' service enables you to take the service directly from the NTE (network terminating equipment) which sits at the edge of the physical fibre network that serves you and is often cheaper as a result, with no net difference to service performance. As long as you've got someone who can do some basic networking configuration on your own router.

I would urge you to cast the net wider, than TalkTalk Business for either the DIA/Leased Line service and/or FTTP. They aren't necessarily the most competitive nor have the best service offering, despite the fact that you're with them now.

For FTTP I would suggest you talk to Aquiss, Andrews & Arnold and Cerberus Networks - as they will offer more bespoke services that are closer to what you'd expect from a 'business-ish' class of service.

For the DIA/Ethernet service, I would suggest a direct approach to the following:

Cogent Communications
Exponential-e
Neos Networks

In central London, I have service currently with Vorboss (excellent and highly recommended), but they very much are leaning to 10Gbps as their starter for ten (no pun intended). Secondly in Canterbury you will be "off-net" - that is not taking service from their own network, it will be via third party. Therefore not as 'good' as being on the native network and perhaps wont be as competitive.

As noted already, there are myriad of small, medium and large leased circuit resellers that will offer you what is effectively a white labelled version of service from for example TalkTalk, Neos, or Virtual1(itself an aggregator) or one of the many better known brand-name carriers. These can be delivered on Openreach 'tails' (the bits of fibre network that stretch from your premises to the nearest BT exchange). As said, be very careful who you get into bed with, some are OK but there are some I would actively avoid.

Back to FTTP and in particular the Openreach FTTP network;

- Reliability. it is in my experience of using it past six years in the stix in Suffolk, that it is extremely reliable and performant in and of itself. The basic network from the exchange to my place has been pretty much bulletproof and has only gone down, as a result of massive physical damage - a tree that took out our overhead drop cable - it was only a matter of time where we are.

- Choice of CP / ISP. The remainder (and equally vital) part of your connection, is really down to your choice of ISP and what their network is like beyond the BT handover exchange. Putting it bluntly you get what you pay for here. You go cheap, expect threadbare service if and when you need it. You pay (slightly) more and you get a completely different service - I know having gone from pile them high, TTB all the way to Cerberus, how different it can be, yet using the same FTTP network to you.

- Asymmetry. Right now in late 2024, it's still inherently based on asymmetric delivery. Openreach have announced that they will do a symmetric service (Gigabit class) come April. In economic terms you are currently capped at around 110 Mbps in the upstream direction on Opereach. As said beyond that, up to 220 Mbps, there are literally a handful of provider that even offer it - you might as well plump for a 1 gigabit DIA/Leased Line service because it will be cheaper and far better than paying similar levels.

Hope that adds a bit more colour.

There are good, knowledgeable people on here. Come back with any questions.

Just to add to the above excellent advice. If you have VM in your area have a chat with a company called 2connect. They use both NEOS and Virgin Media for DIA but with VM they can do a 3 years contract for 12 month prices and the option to terminate after 12 months.

I had a line with them via VM, It took just under 3 months to install and it was solid as a rock. I terminated when FTTP came on Month 15. They write into the contract that you can give 30 days notice from month 12..

Also they are very good on Price. I was quoted £329 +VAT (£395 to round it up) for a NEOS circuit but Virgin Media came in at £265+VAT so £318 in total. A really good price for a Leased Line. It might even be cheaper where you are as it depends on where the network is. For me all they needed to do was to trench about 2M from the VM Chamber to the BT Chamber and then run it to the house the usual way - They offer you a cabinet but I didn't have that I just had the fibre tray on a shelf with the VM box on top of it and the ISP box on top of that.(they use Telcom Manchester) . It was no more difficult to remove at the end of the term than a standard ISP router. I didn't want something attached to the wall.

Thought that info might also be useful.

In reply to a post by VMDIAPunter:

If you have VM in your area have a chat with a company called 2connect.

I didn't have a good experience of them unfortunately. Not good at all.

It's long lost history now, and I wont bother reposting it. Suffice to say I wouldn't be trying them again in a hurry. Or ever actually.

Fair enough. They have been OK to me. By OK I mean they bill on time and the line has been fine. But they use another company to monitor it and also to run it. I guess they are the middle men...

Before that I had a business line with Daisy.. Now there's a crock of you know what..

Daisy are one of those outfits that go on acquisition sprees and put all their emphasis on new sales. I specifically asked them a few months ago to quote me a service based on CityFibre FTTP and they came back to try and sell a leased line, I just ignored the email, I don't have time for that.

Well as fate would have it caught some engineers pulling cables from the road to the pole and installing more kit on the pole yesterday. That was netomnia, so will be chasing YouFibre over the next few days.

There's a new black box, with cables at the bottom. I can see their cable into that. There is a similar box at the top of the pole from previously so I assume this really is a separate network.

YouFibre are offering up to 8gig up and down. I have no idea the real world realities of that. I saw someone saying the router they supply with that was a AOG one but looking at the specs there's no way it would do 8gig.

I'm currently using a firewalla and I could just upgrade to their 10gbe version or I could go down the Ubiquity route - I have some Ubiquity stuff already and it's nice to manage although I think the firewalla is a bit more robust.

Thanks for the info
Paul

In reply to a post by paulome:

YouFibre are offering up to 8gig up and down. I have no idea the real world realities of that. I saw someone saying the router they supply with that was a AOG one but looking at the specs there's no way it would do 8gig.

Nah it does actually. It has hardware acceleration in it, don't be concerned by the CPU core count or clocks. Don't use it with QoS or intrusion detection or fancy features on, though.

I didn't have a good experience with a reseller either.

They were helpful enough progressing the order and getting an EAD line physically installed by Openreach, but once the service went live I soon realised the service was backhauled by a very average mid-tier ISP I'd never normally have approached, whose service and support levels weren't great at all.

The reseller also fronted support, but added no value in the process, they just added another link in the communication chain as well as delays. I ended up speaking with the ISP directly but finding that I ended up constantly having to try and prove why a simple Ookla result from their own server didn't translate to credible service levels. I suspect their own core network and backhaul links were inadequate and poorly managed, which meant I was getting a very high service level for the Openreach EAD link between my home office and the ISP's datacenter, from which point everything went South.

After about 6 months of poor service I took the path of least resistance and approached another much more credible ISP directly who offered me a deal, so they lit up a second EAD-based service to their network over the same physical wire.

I kept ISP 1 online as backup and actually their service level has since stabilised considerably, but will terminate at the end of term which is fast approaching.

The second ISP is Neos as earlier mentioned and I couldn't be happier with them. Support is much more professional. Any organised downtime has been communicated well in advance and scheduled at night, and taken only a few minutes at a time. Exactly what a business would expect from its carriers.

I'll give you a real world example of support between the two.

Both services went down simultaneously one weekday morning about 8am. I email both ISP's with a description of the fault but didn't mention the fact that there were two services on the same physical EAD which both went offline together.

ISP1 (Reseller) does nothing.
ISP2 (Neos) communicates that they have performed checks their end and escalated to Openreach. Regular status emails follow.
1.5 hours later Openreach engineer turns up acting on escalation from ISP2 stating they have narrowed the issue down to a localised circuit issue.
About an hour later Openreach confirm they have found a physical breakage of the fibre in a chamber between my house and exchange. (Several FTTP alt nets have been busy in the area the same week so they are suspected to have damaged it)
An hour later e.g. 4-5 hours after reporting, both circuits come back up.

Some time later that day, after ISP2 has done everything to restore (both!) services, I get a quick response from ISP1 asking me to reboot the CPE.

Thanks for the update. I concur 👍

BTW dropped you a follow up DM here a little while ago, not sure if you've seen it.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Thanks for the update. I concur 👍

BTW dropped you a follow up DM here a little while ago, not sure if you've seen it.

Sorry I hadn't seen it, I have replied but it's not showing up as a Sent PM. If you haven't received anything let me know and I'll try again!

Cheers. Unfortunately not got your message. If you can resend that would be great. Thanks