Waste of energy arguing.

🤣 Life’s too short!

In reply to a post by dect:

You're over thinking it, PIA is a Openreach product so Altnets can use BT ducting/poles to facilitate their own cabling. They also add where necessary their own ducting/chambers/poles but Openreach cannot uses these even if they link two Openreach chambers that weren't linked before.

You're misunderstanding the question at issue, here.
What I'm talking about is what PIA actually means and who owns the fibres installed into OR ducting.


Random Facebook guy is saying no matter who physically installs the lines (and who pays for that install); because those lines/fibres run through OR ducting; they "belong" to OR.

I think random Facebook guy has confused PIA (where Swish pay Openreach a licensing fee to *install* fibres in/on existing OR ducts and poles) with perpetual leasing of lines & fibres that are owned and installed by OR (i.e. the FTTP products sold by the likes of BT, Plusnet, Sky, EE, etc.).

I'm saying (and I could be wrong here) is that PIA involves Swish paying a licensing fee to OR, for the privilege of using OR ducts & poles... That PIA doesn't mean Swish pay to lease the lines from OR (because anything in OR ducts/poles automatically belongs to OR... according to Facebook guy).
I'm saying that the fibres (and any additional ducts, cabinets, etc.) installed by Swish, remain the property of Swish... That PIA involves a telecoms company paying for "space" in OR ducts and *NOT* the telecoms company paying have those fibres installed and then having to lease/rent the same fibres, back from OR.

There is Cablelink; where the telecoms company might be using OR fibres, to make the final hop back to the exchange (Cablelink *is* the leasing of OR fibres).
But what random Facebook guy is saying; is the *entire* Swish network, that has been installed in OR ducting, or on poles, is owned by OR...


If he's right (and Swish are spending a fortune installing fibres, ducts, cabinets, etc.) why would they then gift them (or be forced to gift them, as he suggests; as a condition of being "allowed" to install in OR ducts) to OR, and then have to lease them back; in order to be have a product to sell, to the customer?

Swish are in this for the long-haul. They have to be; at typically £50k per year, per area (assuming they get 1,000 customers to sign up, in each town) it's going to take them decades to even pay for the installation; being forced to then pay around 30-50% of their income, to Or for leasing back the lines Swish paid to have installed, is just a massive kick in the teeth...
... why would any company bother to do that.


Wasn't the whole point of PIA, to make it more attractive for other companies to install fibre networks and not as a mechanism for OR to get free stuff and to, effectively, be in control (and to own) all the domestic fibre networks, in the UK?

In reply to a post by adebov:

I think random Facebook guy has confused PIA (where Swish pay Openreach a licensing fee to *install* fibres in/on existing OR ducts and poles) with perpetual leasing of lines & fibres that are owned and installed by OR (i.e. the FTTP products sold by the likes of BT, Plusnet, Sky, EE, etc.).

No, Openreach don't "lease" fibres for FTTP. They provide a managed service, and that's what the retail ISP pays for. The fibre remains entirely 100% the property and responsibility of Openreach.

In many cases, multiple services are carried over the same physical fibre: e.g. if there's a Sky customer, a BT customer and a Plusnet customer all on the same PON, then a single fibre strand carries those services as far as the splitter.

Therefore, those ISPs do not "lease" the fibre in any sense of the word: they have no rights over it. They buy a service, which is delivered over a fibre. Openreach are entirely at liberty to deliver it over some other fibre, if they choose.

In reply to a post by adebov:

I'm saying that the fibres (and any additional ducts, cabinets, etc.) installed by Swish, remain the property of Swish... That PIA involves a telecoms company paying for "space" in OR ducts and *NOT* the telecoms company paying have those fibres installed and then having to lease/rent the same fibres, back from OR.

That is correct.

In reply to a post by adebov:

There is Cablelink; where the telecoms company might be using OR fibres, to make the final hop back to the exchange (Cablelink *is* the leasing of OR fibres).

Cablelinks exist entirely inside the exchange, from one piece of equipment to another. You are basically renting a port on Openreach's switch, plus a patch cable.

If you bring your own backhaul network to the exchange, in order to interconnect there, then that backhaul is not itself a Cablelink.

In reply to a post by adebov:

But what random Facebook guy is saying; is the *entire* Swish network, that has been installed in OR ducting, or on poles, is owned by OR...

If he's right (and Swish are spending a fortune installing fibres, ducts, cabinets, etc.) why would they then gift them...

But he's entirely wrong, so the consequences are irrelevant.

If that person cared to do even the tiniest bit of research - to download the Openreach PIA product documentation for example - they would find that they are wrong.

In reply to a post by adebov:

You're misunderstanding the question at issue, here.

I wasn't.

I think random Facebook guy is miles off and you're somewhere in between to be honest, why don't you just refer the random Facebook guy to this forum if he wants to learn the facts rather than the fake news his currently posting on Facebook.

Edited by deleted (Sun 13-Nov-22 15:50:06)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by adebov:

I think random Facebook guy has confused PIA (where Swish pay Openreach a licensing fee to *install* fibres in/on existing OR ducts and poles) with perpetual leasing of lines & fibres that are owned and installed by OR (i.e. the FTTP products sold by the likes of BT, Plusnet, Sky, EE, etc.).

No, Openreach don't "lease" fibres for FTTP. They provide a managed service, and that's what the retail ISP pays for. The fibre remains entirely 100% the property and responsibility of Openreach.

In many cases, multiple services are carried over the same physical fibre: e.g. if there's a Sky customer, a BT customer and a Plusnet customer all on the same PON, then a single fibre strand carries those services as far as the splitter.

Therefore, those ISPs do not "lease" the fibre in any sense of the word: they have no rights over it. They buy a service, which is delivered over a fibre. Openreach are entirely at liberty to deliver it over some other fibre, if they choose.

So, basically (as I understand it... and this hasn't changed... I don't think - although I may have, incorrectly, used the phrase "perpetual leasing" to describe what an ISP does to "rent" the OR wholesale product); if an Openreach FTTP product is resold (which is exactly what BT, Sky, EE, Plusnet, etc. do... sell OR's product) it's entirely OR infrastructure, OR fibres, OR poles, OR aggregation points (even an OR supplied ONT) etc. and the ISP simply rent the OR product (I believe it's £22/month for wholesale rental of the OR 1000/115Mbps product... sold by BT as a 900/110Mbps product).

But the likes of Swish, etc. is a different scenario;
Those are companies that actually install their own fibres, cabinets, etc. (albeit paying a licensing fee to allow them to use space... not fibres... just space; to install their own fibres into OR ducting) they're a network installer, they own their own fibre, equipment in their cabinets, their own aggregation points and even the ONTs.

Cablelink seems to come in two forms (three; if you include the Cablelink version for mobile cell tower sites);
Internal = within the exchange, to connect onto backhaul
External = [I believe; out in the field... although; I'm still not entirely sure whether it's just not in a "different" part of the exchange... it probably depends on where the "handover box" is located] from the Openreach Handover Box (the point at which the Swish network terminates and then relies on OR fibres) to the exchange cable chamber.

So it sounds, to me (and I've read the SINs several times... but they're complicated documents, if a person is like me; and not up on all the OR acronyms ) like a network installer, such as Swish, may need to rely on both forms of Cablelink, to get from their entry into the OR network (the handover box), back to the cable chamber and then, within the exchange, to get back onto their own equipment & whatever backhaul they're using to get out of the town...
From the handover box, to all their fibres, cabinets, etc.; Swish could be using their PIA to install fibres into OR ducts at any point out in the field... or; it could be entirely their own ducting right the way back to the handover box...

... but all of the above is in my layman's terminology (so I may be using the wrong phrases and terminology, to describe how I understand the process ).

I've thought, all along, that *random Facebook guy* was assuming Swish are no different to BT retail, Plusnet, etc. (none of those companies install fibres and equipment out in the field... they are simply retail ISPs).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by adebov:

But what random Facebook guy is saying; is the *entire* Swish network, that has been installed in OR ducting, or on poles, is owned by OR...

If he's right (and Swish are spending a fortune installing fibres, ducts, cabinets, etc.) why would they then gift them...

But he's entirely wrong, so the consequences are irrelevant.

Thanks; I was sure he was wrong (I'd read up on PIA and Cablelink; so was certain the CP [Swish] was using PIA to gain access to space in OR ducts, to install their own fibres, and couldn't imagine a scenario where Ofcom thought it a good idea to compel the CP to then transfer ownership, of said fibres, to OR... it didn't make sense to me); but I wanted to come on here, to get confirmation as to whether I was right (or, if that were the case, wrong).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If that person cared to do even the tiniest bit of research - to download the Openreach PIA product documentation for example - they would find that they are wrong.

Ah! Therein lays the problem... 'random Facebook' people don't do research; they just give out their own opinion as fact... then repeat that "fact" when you disagree with them

Edited by adebov (Sun 13-Nov-22 22:18:49)

Why are you bothering having this argument with someone? It seems like a huge time sink.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Why are you bothering having this argument with someone? It seems like a huge time sink.

OP is still posting incorrect information even after 'candlerb' has given them the facts, just take cablelinks as an example.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Why are you bothering having this argument with someone? It seems like a huge time sink.

because actually he started it.
I made a comment (on a Swish Facebook post) saying I'd seen Swish installing their own fibres, ducts and cabinets and that some areas of town will soon have a choice between Swish or a BT [Openreach] offering.
Random Facebook guy came on and told me I was wrong; and that it's Openreach doing all of the installation (odd; since the vans have "Swish" plastered all over the side) and that Swish are just leasing the lines.

So I had to defend my initial statement (that it definitely is Swish installing the fibres, ducts, etc. and then owning their infrastructure and selling the products to home owners).

He then came back and slightly changed his claim (to "other providers are installing but its not exclusive hardware, openreach agree to them installing but the hardware becomes infrastructure thus owned by open reach.").

So; I replied that my understanding is that Swish are doing the install (sometimes using OR ducting & poles) but the whole thing is still a Swish owned and operated product (just because some of the fibres might be going into OR ducts; it doesn't make those fibres the property of OR)....
... hell; even the work authorities (listed on the one.network site) show Swish operating in some parts of the town, for telecoms installation work and OR operating in other parts of the town... finishing off the fibre installs they started a couple of years ago

... plus; I like arguing with people

In reply to a post by adebov:

In reply to a post by jpm:

Why are you bothering having this argument with someone? It seems like a huge time sink.

because actually he started it.
I made a comment (on a Swish Facebook post) saying I'd seen Swish installing their own fibres, ducts and cabinets and that some areas of town will soon have a choice between Swish or a BT [Openreach] offering.
Random Facebook guy came on and told me I was wrong; and that it's Openreach doing all of the installation (odd; since the vans have "Swish" plastered all over the side) and that Swish are just leasing the lines.

So I had to defend my initial statement (that it definitely is Swish installing the fibres, ducts, etc. and then owning their infrastructure and selling the products to home owners).

He then came back and slightly changed his claim (to "other providers are installing but its not exclusive hardware, openreach agree to them installing but the hardware becomes infrastructure thus owned by open reach.").

So; I replied that my understanding is that Swish are doing the install (sometimes using OR ducting & poles) but the whole thing is still a Swish owned and operated product (just because some of the fibres might be going into OR ducts; it doesn't make those fibres the property of OR)....
... hell; even the work authorities (listed on the one.network site) show Swish operating in some parts of the town, for telecoms installation work and OR operating in other parts of the town... finishing off the fibre installs they started a couple of years ago

... plus; I like arguing with people

Stop arguing and rely on the facts (which you or your antagonist can verify if you would sooner spend time on verifying rather than relying on the fact that like the population as a whole 50% of the people involved on Facebook are stupider than the average) - or are you in the deprived 50%?

If the supplier has taken advantage of the PIA rules then the fibre in the ducts or on the poles is the property of the provider, not BT or BTOR. If the supplier has not contracted under PIA and is white-labelling their product then there is no "new" cabling, the supplier has not installed any new fibre and the service is sub-contracted from the BT empire.