BT old wiring HALVES my Orange Broadband speed!

I've previously sought help on here, trying to improve my Orange broadband speed. It now appears that the problem lies with BT's old wiring of my property. This may help others who have lived in the same property for a number of years, and can't get to the bottom of the cause of permanently lower line speeds experienced - regardless of time of day/night.
My problem lies with old style wired telephone points provided upstairs and downstairs by BT. Orange have now advised, after months of correspondence and speed & router stats/tests, etc., etc., that my max speed offered in my postcode area is 14Mb. As my overhead BT wiring splits into two from a gutter-board mounted junction 'box', to two wires: one serving a hard wired telephone in our upstairs bedroom (via a filter/splitter), the other running down the outside of the house, to our main wired house ansa-phone situated downstairs, near the front door. The latter's faceplate has a filter/splitter also, one connection to the phone, the other to my wired router and computer. Now the crunch! Orange have confirmed that the 14Mb broadband supply automatically splits into two, due to my old BT wiring plan; so the max speed I can get to my router is 7Mb !! 14Mb divided by two. I'm not using the line upstairs for a computer router, so I have 7Mb being literally wasted!
So you would think after contacting BT, who I pay my monthly line rental & phone calls to, that they would make the very quick and low-cost changes to my phone lines (i.e., remove the upstairs telephone wiring, so that the full-on 14Mb speed comes storming down to the groundfloor phone & router. Well I then had my first taste of dealing with BT Customer service now based in India - all I say is that my particular work required totally flumoxed them (at least 4 requests from the Indian lady for time-out to talk to "her coach"). We eventually agreed that a British telephone engineer would visit me today, and that there may be a charge of £139.50p to do this work, or it may be free. I agreed to this, as I was convinced that it was just a simple disconnection of one line in. However, when the local BT Engineer contacted me this morning to discuss the work, it unfortunately was going to be far more than the £139.50p and certainly no chance of a freebie. So I cancelled, as I thought it was taking the proverbial pee, and God help us with the cost of the much vaunted future installation of the super-highway optic fibre revolution! If nothing else, I hope that I have perhaps cast off one of the blankets of mystique about experiencing low broadband speed, for other forum members, if they should also have the same Victorian BT wiring system in their homes

Don't just tell Orange your router stats, tell us if you want advice.

Do you have 2 telephone numbers or just 1 with 2 sockets?

If the latter, which is the master socket?

Or don't you have any sockets? You say 1 phone is hard-wired; you mean it is not plugged into any socket? How can it have a filter? Victorians didn't have filters.Yet you say the other phone has a faceplate; you mean its socket has?

You are confusing phone handsets and phone sockets.

It is a fallacy that multi sockets divide your bandwidth!

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 11-Mar-11 07:26:07)

Of course it does not divide the bandwidth by 2.

Your wiring is a star configuration and in some houses there will be more than 2 circuits.

The days of BT doing anything for free are long gone.

Read this article to see how your phone is wired:

http://yarwell.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_yarwell_archi...

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephon...

Keith

Edited by keithwjones (Fri 11-Mar-11 10:20:35)

In reply to a post by keithwjones:

Of course it does not divide the bandwidth by 2.

I know, I just said so.

The charge is I believe fixed at £144+VAT charged to the ISP for an SFI visit. They may charge it to you. As your installation is not up to BT current standards there should be no charge.

My price may be out of date, but you get the general idea.

Hi Xray, 1) You've previously had all my router stats and line speeds.
2) I'm not an ex-telephone engineer, so I'm now into clutching @ straws; the diluted Broadband speed theory spewed out by an British Orange Customer Service man the other night sounded plausible, and until the BT engineer visits my property this coming Monday, I'm not doing anything else.
However, if Monday's BT actions fail to improve my [censored] line speed - then Orange will get a MAC number request from me. As I'm not stupid, I've seen the B/band ISP league tables, and surprise, surprise Orange are rock bottom.
3) When it comes to my current phone wiring configuration, I thought I'd explained it quite succinctly, but obviously not. So here we go again:
Do you have 2 telephone numbers or just 1 with 2 sockets? No, ONE tel number, with two sockets (one upstairs, one downstairs).
It is not clear which is the master socket (they both look the same). However, I've always presumed its downstairs, as we had the upstairs one installed way after the original downstairs one.
Both of my phones are permanently connected by std phone wire/cable or whatever is the correct description. Downstairs handset is bog-standard. Upstairs is a "wanda fone handset" which is recharged when placed back in it's cradle.
When I first went on Broadband with SKY a few years ago, I duly fitted (as instructed) micro-filters to each internal telephone socket - sorry for previously calling them splitters or just filters.
My wired router is connected to the downstairs line, via the micro-filter. Unfortunately my main computer is about 20 metres away from the router, so I know my line-speed is automatically weakened via the connecting length of cable from router to computer. The router also serves my son's laptop upstairs via "a dongle".
Thanks.

Expect me to remember your router stats?

... Ah yes! You're the one capped to 8 Meg on ADSL2+.

EDIT: Your Line attenuation wouldn't be 25 dB (downstream) if Orange's hypothesis was true that your bandwidth is halved because you have 2 extensions. How on earth would the exchange know how many extensions you have?

Idea: Have you tried with all phones disconnected? Are stats and speedtests any better?

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 11-Mar-11 23:51:01)

Thanks yarwell, you have opened my eyes to a few other things to be checked e.g. MaxDSL diagnostics.
However, the BT Engineer is coming this Monday, so hope he identifies any problems with my overhead cable to my property, and/or my sockets wiring.

BTW, I picked up on the bell wire etc., a week or so ago, and disconnected them @ the master socket. I only have two wires connected in the master socket now. I thought it made an improvement @ the time, but my speed seems to have dropped back to poor levels again:
Date Day Downstream Upstream IP Address Connection
12/03/11 00:13 Sat 3332 Kbps 507 Kbps 91.104.171.150 my home DSL
11/03/11 20:54 Fri 2628 Kbps 289 Kbps 91.104.144.71 my home DSL
11/03/11 01:20 Fri 3310 Kbps 449 Kbps 91.104.144.71 my home DSL
10/03/11 23:03 Thu 3314 Kbps 449 Kbps 91.104.144.71 my home DSL
10/03/11 13:51 Thu 3342 Kbps 443 Kbps 91.104.144.71 my home DSL
10/03/11 02:06 Thu 3294 Kbps 510 Kbps 91.104.144.252 my home DSL
10/03/11 00:21 Thu 3364 Kbps 509 Kbps 91.104.144.252 my home DSL
09/03/11 19:04 Wed 3131 Kbps 477 Kbps 91.107.9.229 my home DSL
09/03/11 01:48 Wed 3331 Kbps 509 Kbps 91.107.33.145 my home DSL
08/03/11 15:50 Tue 3365 Kbps 496 Kbps 91.104.164.250 my home DSL
08/03/11 15:24 Tue 3366 Kbps 496 Kbps 91.104.164.250 my home DSL
08/03/11 11:45 Tue 3348 Kbps 508 Kbps 91.104.174.182 my home DSL
07/03/11 23:42 Mon 2155 Kbps 350 Kbps 91.104.174.182 my home DSL
07/03/11 21:59 Mon 5098 Kbps 419 Kbps 91.104.190.101 my home DSL
07/03/11 19:55 Mon 5015 Kbps 698 Kbps 91.107.13.196 my home DSL

The last two readings dated 07/03/11, were taken when the computer and router were temporarily within a metre of my master socket, the other 07/03/11 reading, was the first one taken, with the computer & router re-situated back in our lounge - connected via some 20 metres of telephone wire extension to the master socket (where it's been for the last 5 years). In this time we have had SKY (2 years) and Orange (current ISP for 3 years).
Just to recap - Orange have very recently informed me that they have cranked up my line-speed to 14Mb (the max my BT config. can take - they say). So that's why I swallowed the story that it's splitting @ the external junction point, with 7mb going to the upstairs BT socket, and 7Mb to the master socket downstairs. As apparently very few Bband clients get the max speed in reality, the 5Mb I recorded when directly connecting the router & computer @ the master socket, seemed to support Orange's explanation. After all, I am only a qualified accountant and Registered HMRC Corporate Tax Agent, not a Comms Engineer

p.s. as I've got a spare Linksys router, perhaps I could connect that upstairs and see what speed that gives my son's laptop, while I'm feeding off the Orange router downstairs - could be interesting?!

connected via some 20 metres of telephone wire extension to the master socket

is that a high quality twisted pair cable ?

You need to get a new NTE5 master socket where you want the router to be, and extension wiring (if required) from that via a fully filtered faceplate. Anything else is a compromise

If you don't need to have wired extensions (eg using DECT phones) then a single socket on the end of the incoming phone line is goo.

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

p.s. as I've got a spare Linksys router, perhaps I could connect that upstairs and see what speed that gives my son's laptop, while I'm feeding off the Orange router downstairs - could be interesting?

Doubt it will work! It will either pick up the 1st one that connects or the 2nd one with discon the 1st.

I don't think I have high quality twisted pair cable. I believe it's bog standard

"a new NTE5 master socket where you want the router to be, and extension wiring (if required) from that via a fully filtered faceplate. Anything else is a compromise."
Thanks for confirming my bottom-line conclusion to sort this once and for all !
In my speke - BT master faceplate rewired to be immediately adjacent to the router and computer in my lounge. Only rub is, I don't think for one minute that BT will do this for free

The BT OpenReach Engineer has come and gone this morning. The second phone line connection has been removed, with no significant gain in speed to my router. Needless to say, a stiff email has already been fired off to Orange, requesting "What now???"................... and if they can't pull one last trick out of the bag to give me this so called 14 Mb down the line, then MAC number PLEASE!
Latest readings recorded since my upstairs phone as been ex-communicated, are:
Speedtest Results
Date Day Downstream Upstream IP Address Connection
14/03/11 10:27 Mon 3329 Kbps 509 Kbps 91.104.161.178 my home DSL
14/03/11 10:15 Mon 3309 Kbps 510 Kbps 91.104.161.178 my home DSL
14/03/11 10:02 Mon 3327 Kbps 509 Kbps 91.104.152.206 my home DSL
14/03/11 09:40 Mon 3317 Kbps 509 Kbps 91.104.178.153 my home DSL
14/03/11 09:13 Mon 3300 Kbps 508 Kbps 91.104.178.153 my home DSL

14/03/11 08:46 Mon 3417 Kbps 510 Kbps 91.104.178.153 my home DSL 13/03/11 13:36 Sun 3257 Kbps 329 Kbps 91.104.141.188 my home DSL
12/03/11 22:13 Sat 3282 Kbps 336 Kbps 91.104.141.188 my home DSL
12/03/11 00:13 Sat 3332 Kbps 507 Kbps 91.104.171.150 my home DSL

I have included three older readings for comparison to before so called fix

As you have been advised previously, the best way to get any help on this forum is to post your router stats.
Please post them now the wiring has been removed...

Here you are ........... thanks BatBoy.

Device Internet
Connection status: Connected (0:02:03:12)
Connection mode: Always on
IP address: 91.104.161.178
MAC address: 00:21:04:90:61:A1
Default gateway: 91.104.128.1
Preferred DNS server: 193.36.79.100
Alternate DNS server: 193.36.79.101
Downstream rate: 4093 kbps
Upstream rate: 606 kbps
PPPoE pass-through: Enabled
ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 4093 kbps (downstream) / 606 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 27 dB (downstream) / 22 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 25 dB (downstream) / 13 dB (upstream)
Output power: 21 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)
Address Translation (NAT)
Status: Enabled
NAT table: No entries
Dynamic DNS
Status: Disabled

That's terrible, I think there's something wrong with the router. Can you try another one, preferably a Netgear DG834GT or a Speedtouch 585 v7?

Would the high noise margin be due to frequent reboots?

Fair play...that noise margin is huge! You should easily get 14meg with that attenuation.

The only alternative I have to hand is an old LINKSYS WAG54GS. However, I have asked Orange for a new router, and I think they will come across.
Bottom line is, I'm really 99% decided to get the MAC and go to O2. If I listed Orange's Customer Service responses, which included the "you're getting 14Meg and 7 Meg is coming down to one of your telephone sockets, and the other 7 Meg is coming down to your other phone's socket, which you are not to using for Broadband". Well their bluff has been called on the latter, 'cos OpenReach BT removed the other extension line and socket this morning; RESULT = no change in upload or download speed whatsoever to/from my router. Plus of course we have now lost the use of our extension phone upstairs. I know we can get the up-to-date setup of a cluster of phones on a hub downstairs, which will enable a remote fone in every room - but that's more money, to replace a perfectly adequate system we already had ...... until this morning!
My final comment b4 I get my head down, is Orange ain't bottom of the B/band ISPs league table for nothing !

Well, you chose to believe Orange CS and not us and logic; cost you money + loss of a phone

Perhaps I've got money to burn
But then again, I can assure you that if any bill comes my way from BT Openreach, it will be forwarded to Orange, along with my request for a MAC number, which they are "a home banker" to get the latter anyway. Still, the BT Openreach engineer cheered me up this morning, by declaring without being prompted - that our local "cabs" are stuffed with fibre optic kit, so Rayleigh, Essex could be on "The Super Highway" soon, and all this faffing about with Broadband speeds will be history; just like "Dial Up". I won't get too carried away though, as I'm sure Fibre Optic will be priced @ a premium, like most new technology gadgets ........... e.g., HD TVs & service providers like SKY.

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

The only alternative I have to hand is an old LINKSYS WAG54GS. However, I have asked Orange for a new router, and I think they will come across.

Well, you have nothing to lose by trying it, and everything to gain.

Originally, when OP 1st came to TBB, he posted router stats that were exact figures for an ADSL2+ line capped at 8 Meg: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/unhappiness/t/39669...

Then he disconnected some wires from his non-standard master socket: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/unhappiness/t/39717... and his stats worsened to similar to you see here.

As he seems not to have a modern NTE5 master socket, he must have played around with the wiring behind the socket and could have easily messed it up.

He then went on to follow a red herring that his bandwidth is divided between his phone sockets, even if not used for BB , and removed 2nd socket in the vain hope of harnessing the phantom bandwidth consumed by the 2nd socket.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 15-Mar-11 14:48:19)

So, is he now capped to 4Mb?

What mechanism could be responsible for the capping?

Noise?

lol

Hi shrimper1, if you had two NTE5 boxes the BT engineer did right to remove the one. Your router stats are better than mine are, so you should get higher speeds. Maybe Orange has capped your line like my line is capped at 16384 kbps and I should be on 20 Meg.

BT 2Wire 2700HGV router
DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 11815 kbps
Upstream Rate: 1134 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 10.1 dB (Downstream), 5.9 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 29.9 dB (Downstream), 14.6 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 18.5 dBm (Downstream), 11.9 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x9662}

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1204702055.png

http://www.pingtest.net/result/36989192.png

Thanks for your support E7er
Bet yer jealous of these stats, the worst set recorded just now! for a 14-16Mb supply, so say Orange ;-(

Speed Wave Name: Speed Wave Description: Expiration Date:
3/15/2011 7:13 PM GMT 91.104.139.196 3.52 Mb/s 0.50 Mb/s 73 ms Maidenhead ~ 50 mi Image
3/16/2011 1:28 AM GMT 91.104.139.196 3.54 Mb/s 0.51 Mb/s 42 ms Maidenhead ~ 50 mi Image
3/16/2011 1:31 AM GMT 91.104.139.196 3.60 Mb/s 0.51 Mb/s 41 ms Milton Keynes ~ 50 mi Image
3/16/2011 1:34 AM GMT 91.104.139.196 3.54 Mb/s 0.46 Mb/s 42 ms Milton Keynes ~ 50 mi Image
3/16/2011 6:56 PM GMT 91.104.139.196 2.79 Mb/s 0.51 Mb/s 42 ms Maidenhead ~ 50 mi

What really matters are your router stats. Last time you posted them it showed you were capped at 4Mb. Can you post them again please? The speedtests are not useful at this stage

How many times have you been told that your router stats are paramount? Until you can get those good, repetitive speed tests are useless.

But if you plug an Apple Mac into both sockets you will get full speed again. You see you have a Pear of sockets and you need to take bite from each in turn on cue.

In reply to a post by E7er:

my line is capped at 16384 kbps and I should be on 20 Meg

You'd never get 20 Meg on that line, particularly @ NM = 10 dB, which seems to be Orange's norm. Best you could hope for is 15-16 Meg, so it's not Orange capping you but just your line length.

BTW: Don't believe OP had any NTE5 boxes but just old-fashioned non-faceplate sockets.

Here are my router internet stats, I provided my speed data @ the request of another forum member ..... E7er??

Internet

Connection status: Connected (1:06:55:03)

Connection mode: Always on
IP address: withheld by me
MAC address: 00:21:04:90:61:A1

Default gateway: 91.104.128.1
Preferred DNS server: 193.36.79.101
Alternate DNS server: 193.36.79.100
Downstream rate: 4093 kbps
Upstream rate: 606 kbps
PPPoE pass-through: Enabled

ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 4093 kbps (downstream) / 606 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 29 dB (downstream) / 22 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 25 dB (downstream) / 12 dB (upstream)
Output power: 22 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)
Address Translation (NAT)
Status: Enabled

NAT table: No entries
Dynamic DNS
Status: Disabled

Just an observation - should my Dynamic DNS be disabled?

After many fruitless calls to Orange by various members of my family, regarding our poor "up to 20Mb" service, I am tomorrow requesting a MAC number and calling O2 to establish whether they can guarantee a substantially higher ACTUAL line speed, in the region of 10Mb.

Everyone's input has been much appreciated. Thanks.

Eeeeer, a bit late for that, the 2nd socket and line was removed by OpenReach the other day, at Orange Customer Service's instruction
I've today spent £50 on new dual wanda-phone set for the house, I'm really peeeed off with the whole affair!

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

calling O2 to establish whether they can guarantee a substantially higher ACTUAL line speed, in the region of 10Mb.

No one can/will guarantee any speeds. Your experience illustrates why.

Still oddly capped at 4Megs for some reason. Did you try that other router?

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

Just an observation - should my Dynamic DNS be disabled?

Yes!

Just found this info @ http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php
At least it gives estimated line speeds for my postcode (further down this detail)
It appears I've been flogging a dead horse all along!

Exchange Information
Exchange: Rayleigh BT Code: EARAY
Location: High Road, SS6 7AA
Distance:- Direct: 525 metres
(appx)* By Road: 805 metres
Status
ADSL enabled: September 29, 2000
DSL Max enabled: March 30, 2006
SDSL enabled : Enabled
21CN due : (PSTN) N/A
21CN WBC (Broadband) Enabled 29.09.09
Broadband Access† Market 3

Available ISPs Other Broadband Technology & LLU Providers
Although your exchange is BT owned, this does not limit you to just BT Broadband and a vast range of ISPs are able to supply you with adsl.
Available ISPs are too numerous to list, but some examples would be: Zen, Plusnet, IDNet, Enta, etc

LLU
AOL Available
Be* Available
C&W/Bulldog RFS date set 31.01.11
Edge Telecom Not available
Homechoice Not available
Lumison Not available
NewNet Not available
Node4 Not available
O2 Available
Orange Available 15.05.08
Pipex Not available
Smallworld Not available
Sky Available 22.08.06
TalkTalk Available
Tiscali Not available
UK Online Available 22.08.06
WB Internet Not available
Zen Not available

Cable
Virgin Media Not available
Smallworld Media Not available

Wireless
EMnet Not available
Kijoma Not available
LTT Broadband Not available
Now Wireless Not available
OnLincolnshire Not available
Orbital/VFast Not available
UrbanWimax Not available

BT Line Speed Estimation

Fixed ADSL: 2048 kbps (2 Mb)
DSL Max: 7500 kbps (7.5 Mb)
21CN WBC : 17000 kbps (17 Mb)

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

Just found this info @ http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php
At least it gives estimated line speeds for my postcode (further down this detail)
It appears I've been flogging a dead horse all along!

Why do you say that?

Because this new data I have found states my BT Exchange max line speed is 7500 kbps. Whereas the max download & upload speed recorded when I had router & computer within a metre of the BT master socket was 5112 Kbps. 698 Kbps. This means to my simple mind that I'm not missing 75% of my ISP's max offering of 20Mb, which I'm paying for, but only approx. 30%. Add to this that you don't apparently in practise ever get the "max" supplied anyway, and the problem shrinks further still.
However, it's also pretty obvious that Orange "traffic manage", as my records show that download & upload speeds decrease @ peak usage times.
I've just emailed all this new data to Orange customer service, and hope that they realise that I am quite close to my exchange. As I believe they should still be able to tweak up my actual recorded line speed a bit. I'd also like to think that as I am only one of two Orange customers in my postcode vicinity (according to another net info service that I use), then there is a reasonable chance of an improvement.

Or am I really reliant on BT??? ....................
"Orange financial results indicates 770,000 broadband customers
Thursday 24 February 2011 13:05:12 by John Hunt
The combined companies of T-Mobile and Orange, now part of Everything Everywhere, have released financial results for the nine months ending December 31st 2010, their first annual financial results as a combined company. The main headlines from this in terms of broadband were that Orange home broadband has seen a slow down in the erosion of the fixed-line broadband customer base. This is obviously good news as Orange have been on a steady decline over the last couple of years. Comparing to the end of 2009 (896,000), Orange have lost 126,000 fixed line customers, ending 2010 on 770,000. The company expect to be in customer growth in this sector in mid-2011.
Orange of course made a big step in April 2010, announcing that they would be outsourcing their broadband provision to BT, a move which they hoped would help them turn around the broadband side of the business. It will take time for this work to come to fruition, and for customers to see an improved service."

Edited by shrimper1 (Fri 18-Mar-11 00:49:33)

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

Because this new data I have found states my BT Exchange max line speed is 7500 kbps.

You are really confused! You are not on this:

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

BT Line Speed Estimation
DSL Max: 7500 kbps (7.5 Mb)

You are on LLU ADSL2+. The nearest in that list to your situation is:

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

21CN WBC : 17000 kbps (17 Mb)

which is BT's ADSL2+, not Orange's ADSL2+, but it does agree closely with the estimate I gave you ages ago in your other thread.

You have already been given estimates here based on your actual line stats, not on this BT unreliable database.

You have come seeking help to a BB forum populated by people specialising in the subject, yet in 2 major instances, bandwidth shared by extensions and your line's capability, you have ignored our advice and relied and acted on other's less reliable expertise.

Let's start again!

Did the BT engineer fit a NTE5 split-faceplate master socket? If so, would you get your router stats by plugging into the hidden test socket behind the faceplate, with all phones and any Sky box type things completely disconnected?

Let's start again!

Q: Did the BT engineer fit a NTE5 split-faceplate master socket?
Answer: No, he fitted nothing new, all he did was disconnect my upstairs line - although he has left the upstairs socket in situ, and all the wiring, but he assured me it's all disconnected (which it is, as there's no dial tone). He probably knew it was all a complete waste of time, and that I'd soon be requesting it all to be put back how it was.

Q: If so, would you get your router stats by plugging into the hidden test socket behind the faceplate, with all phones and any Sky box type things completely disconnected?
Answer: Well, it's not a NTE5, and I thought I'd previously supplied all the router stats & line speeds, when I moved my computer & router immediately adjacent to my existing master socket/faceplate for the 2 day period (5th & 6th of March 2011). But heigh ho ............... here they are again :-

Router Status as @ 06/03/2011, Time: 21-45
Internet 192.168.1.1

Connection status:
Connected (1:21:57:22)

Connection mode:
Always on

IP address:
91.107.27.136

MAC address:
00:21:04:90:61:A1

Default gateway:
91.107.0.1

Preferred DNS server:
193.36.79.100

Alternate DNS server:
193.36.79.101

Downstream rate:
6139 kbps

Upstream rate:
830 kbps

PPPoE pass-through:
Enabled

ADSL Line

Status:
Cable connected

Line mode:
G.992.5 (ADSL2+)

Maximum line rate:
6139 kbps (downstream) / 830 kbps (upstream)

Noise margin:
23 dB (downstream) / 17 dB (upstream)

Line attenuation:
24 dB (downstream) / 12 dB (upstream)

Output power:
22 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)

Address Translation (NAT)

Status:
Enabled

NAT table:
No entries

Dynamic DNS

Status:
Disabled

I will also move my router & computer back to the faceplate again sometime this weekend when convenient, and replicate the router stats process. I will have to choose a good time, as my wife has run out of patience with all this; she has no problem sending emails, so she does not understand what all the fuss is about

In summary, I was going to request a MAC number from Orange and switch to O2, however I read somewhere some bad reports about O2 as well. So my strategy is now to find out exactly when fibre optic comes on stream for my postcode, and if it's this year, I will sit tight and in the meantime squeeze as much as I can out of Orange
starting with an up to date router - as mine is 2 years old, as we are on a new contract with Orange (commenced last month), with a different family name on it.

Will be in touch over the weekend ......

Hi shrimper1, when you display you router stats do not show your IP Address,
this is information hackers can use…

IP address:

MAC address:

Default gateway:

Preferred DNS server:

Alternate DNS server:

If you don’t get a router out of Orange, buy a BT 2Wire 2700HGV for £30 or less, it’s a fab router.

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

switch to O2, however I read somewhere some bad reports about O2 as well.

O2 LLU is a very good ISP for anyone who does not download enormous amounts (tho' their FUP is higher than Orange's), but is not at all certain that your problems won't follow you to another ISP.

Your downstream rate has increased.
Your noise margin has reduced.
Why not leave it undisturbed a few more days (no rebooting/disconnection) and post your stats again.

In reply to a post by alwall:

Your downstream rate has increased.

No, it didn't because the OP has confused us by last posting 2-week old stats out of order.

In summary, the OP's stats have progressed as follows:

14-Feb-11: Downstream rate: 8187 kbps Noise margin: 17 dB Line attenuation: 25 dB (Looks to me capped @ 8 Meg)
25-Feb-11: OP messed with master socket wiring
25-Feb-11: Downstream rate: 6139 kbps Noise margin: 24 dB Line attenuation: 25 dB
06-Mar-11: Downstream rate: 6139 kbps Noise margin: 23 dB Line attenuation: 24 dB
14-Mar-11: BT removed 2nd extension not used for BB
14-Mar-11: Downstream rate: 4093 kbps Noise margin: 27 dB Line attenuation: 25 dB
16-Mar-11: Downstream rate: 4093 kbps Noise margin: 29 dB Line attenuation: 25 dB

Conclusion: Every time someone plays with the wiring the Sync. goes down & the NM up! Go figure!

I stand corrected........messy!

Let's start again!

Did the BT engineer fit a NTE5 split-faceplate master socket? NO!
If so, would you get your router stats by plugging into the hidden test socket behind the faceplate, with all phones and any Sky box type things completely disconnected?


Following are latest stats (today), from plugging in straight to my master faceplate, with no phones or anything else connected:-

Internet

Connection status: Connected (0:01:17:31)

Connection mode: Always on
IP address: xx.xxx.xxx.xxx (with held)
MAC address: 00:21:04:90:61:A1

Default gateway: 91.104.128.1
Preferred DNS server: 193.36.79.100
Alternate DNS server: 193.36.79.101
Downstream rate: 3769 kbps
Upstream rate: 279 kbps
PPPoE pass-through: Enabled

ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 3769 kbps (downstream) / 279 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 11 dB (downstream) / 6 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 46 dB (downstream) / 50 dB (upstream)
Output power: 21 dBm (downstream) / 11 dBm (upstream)
Address Translation NAT)
Status: Enabled

NAT table: No entries
Dynamic DNS
Status: Disabled
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I recorded the Stats when Router @ computer back in situ just now (in my lounge, some 20 metre cable length from faceplate):-
Internet

Connection status: Connected (0:00:27:04)

Connection mode: Always on
IP address: xx.xxx.xxx.xxx (with held)
MAC address: 00:21:04:90:61:A1

Default gateway: 91.107.0.1
Preferred DNS server: 193.36.79.100
Alternate DNS server: 193.36.79.101
Downstream rate: 4093 kbps
Upstream rate: 606 kbps
PPPoE pass-through: Enabled

ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 4093 kbps (downstream) / 606 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 29 dB (downstream) / 21 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 25 dB (downstream) / 12 dB (upstream)
Output power: 22 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)
Address Translation (NAT)
Status: Enabled

NAT table: No entries
Dynamic DNS
Status: Disabled

These two sets of numbers don't make sense to me, as the line rate looks better furthest away from the faceplate ????

There's something peculiar with the 1st set of stats:

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

Line attenuation: 46 dB (downstream) / 50 dB (upstream)

Down Attn has nearly doubled and Up Attn, has quadrupled. Up is usually 1/2 of Down. Can you try it again in case it is a rogue reading?

I think your the stats fell apart immediately after you disconnected wires inside the socket. Something is really screwing up the noise margin side generally - probably a loose wire touching something important.

I think you need to re-open the socket and tell us what wires you disconnected and what you still have connected, and to open it slowly and try to see if I'm right about something touching as you pull it away.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I think your the stats fell apart immediately after you disconnected wires inside the socket. Something is really screwing up the noise margin side generally - probably a loose wire touching something important.

I think you need to re-open the socket and tell us what wires you disconnected and what you still have connected, and to open it slowly and try to see if I'm right about something touching as you pull it away.

A couple of photographs of the inside of the socket would be interesting to see.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I think your the stats fell apart immediately after you disconnected wires inside the socket. Something is really screwing up the noise margin side generally - probably a loose wire touching something important.

Sorry to report, just opened the faceplate and everything was how I left it, nothing was touching.

I think you need to re-open the socket and tell us what wires you disconnected and what you still have connected, and to open it slowly and try to see if I'm right about something touching as you pull it away.

Some days ago, I disconnected all other wires, leaving the white with some blue fleck wire connected to #5; and the blue with some white fleck wire connected to #2. All the disconnected wires were bent back in the opposite direction to the faceplate, and folded back up the sleeve carrying all the wires, so that there would be no accidental contact with the faceplate, when screwed back up.

A couple of photographs of the inside of the socket would be interesting to see.

I've taken a pic of open back plate, and one of the inside of the plate cover showing the ring capacitor, and the two wires that are still connected. I'll display them on here when I find out how to. I also kept a note of what wires went where b4 disconnecting them, so will be easy to reconnect if I have to.

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

I've taken a pic of open back plate, and one of the inside of the plate cover showing the ring capacitor, and the two wires that are still connected. I'll display them on here when I find out how to. I also kept a note of what wires went where b4 disconnecting them, so will be easy to reconnect if I have to.

You have to put your pics on an image hosting site and post a link to them here

e.g. http://imageshack.us/

I see you used to have sky bb,
do you, or have you ever had a sky tv box?

Thanks, I'll give it a go today.

In reply to a post by ggremlin:

I see you used to have sky bb,
do you, or have you ever had a sky tv box?

Yes I did, but ended my contract a few years ago. So no SKY box connected. I have three old ones in our spare(junk) room if anyone's interested
However, I do have a relatively new HUMAX FoxSat HDR box connected to my tv; it's in a stack under my TV, along with a DVD/recorder and a multi-speaker HiFi system box. However, none of these are connected to the telephone wire (which does run pretty close to these audio/vid appliances.), when connecting to my router (that is directly wired to my computer). Also my son's laptop feeds off the router via wi-fi.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

I've taken a pic of open back plate, and one of the inside of the plate cover showing the ring capacitor, and the two wires that are still connected. I'll display them on here when I find out how to. I also kept a note of what wires went where b4 disconnecting them, so will be easy to reconnect if I have to.

You have to put your pics on an image hosting site and post a link to them here

e.g. http://imageshack.us/

3 fotos here ......... hope this works.

[IMG]http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7579/sdc11274qn.t...[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1252/sdc11277q.th.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2135/sdc11273.th.jpg[/IMG]

Bit small, and you dont need the [IMG] tags.

What colours are the 2 wires in pic 2?

when you did have sky, where was it connected to the telephone wiring?
there may be some redundant wiring there too

The old black cat screws up his eyes and attempts to focus on the images . . .

Everything looks good -- the unconnected wires are tucked out of the way. As BatBoy has asked, please just confirm the colours of the connected wires in picture number two. I can see that it is the blue/white connected at the right. Is it white/blue or brown/white connected at the left?

It seems to me as if it is the older 4-core internal wiring -- green, blue, orange & brown (with white stripes) -- and we may need to see the connections at the other end, if you've made your modifications since the Openreach engineer's visit!

Edited by burakkucat (Wed 23-Mar-11 15:20:38)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Bit small, and you dont need the [IMG] tags.

What colours are the 2 wires in pic 2?

as mentioned previously ..........
Some days ago, I disconnected all other wires, leaving the "white with some blue fleck" wire connected to #5; and the "blue with some white fleck" wire connected to #2. All the disconnected wires were bent back in the opposite direction to the faceplate, and folded back up the sleeve carrying all the wires, so that there would be no accidental contact with the faceplate, when screwed back up.

From my own gut feeling, and maybe some others on here ............
(a) I think I should reconnect all the wires I disconnected, as I had better upload/download speeds prior to disconnecting "bell" wires etc.
(b) Insist on a new router from Orange, as mine is 2 years old, and it's only a month or so that's elapsed since starting a new Orange contract in another family name.

Unless anyone else has any better advice. Thanks.

p.s. I thought the pics come up small on the recommended site, when on my camera's software they appear humungus!

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

(a) I think I should reconnect all the wires I disconnected, as I had better upload/download speeds prior to disconnecting "bell" wires etc.

Ah, good, you've finally got my hint . You've got nothing to lose; at the very least it might eliminate something.

(b) Doubt new router will differ. Yours has been consistent within the same situations. I've been using same router for over 3 years and have only recently switched to a Netgear so as to tweak my NM; Netgear gives same stats as the Siemens.

The key is where the blue pair are connected to the external BT cabling, since the white sheathed cable is internal cable, usually a bit of black cable will enter the property from the outside.

Am guessing that your ADSL is now coming over one leg of the blue pair, that can produce funky attenuation readings. Does the telephone work in the socket?

Though from my quick look back at earlier stats, the balance between upstream and downstream attenuation was odd, usually upstream attenuation is approx half that of downstream attenuation, and in the stats you have posted so far it is nothing like this.

Alas too many engineers who visit simply concentrate on it working or not working, not on getting the best from the line that is possible.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

usually upstream attenuation is approx half that of downstream attenuation, and in the stats you have posted so far it is nothing like this.

Only in 1 set out of 7; 1st of: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/freeserve/t/3983717...

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Bit small, and you dont need the [IMG] tags.

What colours are the 2 wires in pic 2?

as mentioned previously ..........
Some days ago, I disconnected all other wires, leaving the "white with some blue fleck" wire connected to #5; and the "blue with some white fleck" wire connected to #2. All the disconnected wires were bent back in the opposite direction to the faceplate, and folded back up the sleeve carrying all the wires, so that there would be no accidental contact with the faceplate, when screwed back up.

From my own gut feeling, and maybe some others on here ............
(a) I think I should reconnect all the wires I disconnected, as I had better upload/download speeds prior to disconnecting "bell" wires etc.
(b) Insist on a new router from Orange, as mine is 2 years old, and it's only a month or so that's elapsed since starting a new Orange contract in another family name.

Unless anyone else has any better advice. Thanks.

p.s. I thought the pics come up small on the recommended site, when on my camera's software they appear humungus!

My BT Faceplate wires were all reconnected 2 days ago, the phone works (it's never been affected) and the change back to fully wired faceplate, does not seem to have impacted on my line speed.
Here are my router stats taken after putting everything back together as it was in the beginning:-

25/03/2011 02:52
Internet
Connection status: Connected (0:00:04:19)
Connection mode: Always on
IP address: xxxxxxxxxxx
MAC address: xxxxxxxx
Default gateway: 91.107.0.1
Preferred DNS server: 193.36.79.100
Alternate DNS server: 193.36.79.101
Downstream rate: 4093 kbps
Upstream rate: 606 kbps
PPPoE pass-through: Enabled
ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 4093 kbps (downstream) / 606 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 26 dB (downstream) / 21 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 25 dB (downstream) / 12 dB (upstream)
Output power: 21 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)
Address Translation (NAT)
Status: Enabled
NAT table: No entries
Dynamic DNS
Status: Disabled

Here are my recent speed test results :-

Before & after:
Date Day Downstream Upstream IP Address Connection
27/03/11 13:39 Sun 3194 Kbps 378 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
27/03/11 12:30 Sun 2913 Kbps 353 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
26/03/11 23:10 Sat 3340 Kbps 399 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
26/03/11 20:18 Sat 3351 Kbps 399 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
26/03/11 02:36 Sat 3307 Kbps 398 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
25/03/11 03:32 Fri 3284 Kbps 510 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
25/03/11 02:46 Fri 3333 Kbps 509 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
25/03/11 02:32 Fri 3343 Kbps 510 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
25/03/11 01:21 Fri 3312 Kbps 509 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
25/03/11 00:16 Fri 3341 Kbps 510 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL
23/03/11 23:21 Wed 3334 Kbps 506 Kbps xxxxxxxx my home DSL

We are now of to Oz for 3 weeks, visiting relatives, so will be back online about
19-04-2011

Hi Xray, We're just back from Oz, and as you were very supportive in a proactive way with our Broadband speed issue, thought I'd share with you, what appears to be a major improvement to our Orange broadband speed. I realise that this improvement is subject of another more recent thread, but here's some hot off the press speed results this morning ..... with the last reading taken before our trip, as a comparison.

Date Day Downstream Upstream IP Address Connection
16/04/11 10:15 Sat 7647 Kbps 329 Kbps 2.25.xxx.xxx my home DSL
16/04/11 10:08 Sat 7132 Kbps 329 Kbps 2.25.xxx.xxx my home DSL
16/04/11 09:29 Sat 8548 Kbps 328 Kbps 2.25.xxx.xxx my home DSL
27/03/11 13:39 Sun 3194 Kbps 378 Kbps 91.xxx.xxx.xx my home DSL

I see that our IP address has changed to a completely different config., so I guess we must be now on this new Orange Bband package.

On the minus side, the connection appears to go down, but reconnects OK, when closing internet explorer and opening again.

Is this proof, that if you moan long and loud enough, that an ISP finally does something positive?

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

Is this proof, that if you moan long and loud enough, that an ISP finally does something positive?

Doubt it! Just seems you have been swallowed up in Orange's grand plan to switch all us LLU users to BT 21CN WBC (if that's what you refer to). I'm due to move on Tues.

But what your router stats now? Please remember that these are always more important and indicative than speed tests and should always be supplied with contemporaneous speed tests to put the latter into context.

EDIT: I note that your UP Speeds have gone down

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 16-Apr-11 12:46:45)

Connection status: Connected (3:22:58:16)
Connection mode: Always on
IP address: 2.25.xxxxxxxxx
MAC address: xxxxxxxxx
Default gateway: 213.1.112.49
Preferred DNS server: 193.36.79.100
Alternate DNS server: 193.36.79.101
Downstream rate: 18305 kbps
Upstream rate: 1168 kbps
PPPoE pass-through: Enabled
ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 18305 kbps (downstream) / 1168 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 3 dB (downstream) / 6 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 22 dB (downstream) / 12 dB (upstream)
Output power: 22 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)
Address Translation (NAT)
Status: Enabled
NAT table: No entries
Dynamic DNS
Status: Disabled

MASSIVE CHANGE to NOISE MARGIN & MAX LINE RATE

Stats very good, but that begs the Q as to why your speedtests are so low. Should be getting about 15 Meg throughput.

Could be greater contention on BT network. Does not bode well for my switch to WBC on Tues.

Please run BT Speedtester to get your IP Profile.

There was lots more info from running http://speedtester.bt.com/

However, IP Profile for my line is - 9000 Kbps

Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 664 Kbps

Do you want the complete readout?

BTW, thanks for the link to another tool.

Edited by shrimper1 (Sat 16-Apr-11 16:04:27)

In reply to a post by shrimper1:

However, IP Profile for my line is - 9000 Kbps

That;s the only relevant extra info. you get out of BT speedtester. It explains why your speed tests are so low; they are limited by your IP Profile. You have just got to hope that it increases during its learning period.

That tool is only pertinent for BT systems; does not run on LLU.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

BTW, I just ran another stats check:

ADSL Line
Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 9106 kbps (downstream) / 664 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 16 dB (downstream) / 17 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 24 dB (downstream) / 13 dB (upstream)
Output power: 21 dBm (downstream) / 11 dBm (upstream)

The noise margin numbers have changed substantially compared to reading earlier today:

Noise margin: 3 dB (downstream) / 6 dB (upstream)

D'ya think I should question this with Orange?

Overall all though, it appears the recent action taken by Orange has improved my lot!

Wait 12 days for it to stabilise before querying it.

Just got switched from Orange LLU to WBC 3 hours ago. These are my stats immediately upon nighttime reconnection:

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 18075 kbps 888 kbps
Line Attenuation 26.0 db 14.2 db
Noise Margin 4.1 db 15.2 db

(Down NM is being tweaked low; will see in daylight what it is normally)

For the moment, these speeds seem OK, but bit disappointed with Up Sync. Will wait and see what the results are like in daylight before comparing with LLU.

Can't find my IP Profile as BT Speedtester still does not run on my line.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 19-Apr-11 02:13:54)

I think there's a trend developing for the upload to start at 888 then increase to around 1112 over 1-3 days.

And what will we expect to stabilise?

If the line is swinging around in sync speeds from 18Meg down to 9Meg occassionally, all that will happen is that the line will settle on something around the 8Meg mark as the target noise margin is increased to a point where the line does not drop sync very often. The training period never finds a way to run faster, it is all about finding what is thought to be a stable point.

With ADSL2+ the wiring is even more crucial than with ADSL